“People” vs “your own people”.
Oh yeah it’s that liberal thought cliche where the lives of people in other countries don’t matter.
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Crazy what goes on in their minds.
For me it is worser when you do it to others, I can not know their internal struggle, so they ended up in a bad place and convinced it is necessary.
The people telling you communism goes against human nature also tell you it’s human nature for a nation to slaughter people for land. Just normal human nature shit.
Jesus what a fucking terrible argument. I’m sure the native americans were just happy white people weren’t killing other white people. “At least it’s intentional,” they thought as they were being driven from their land.
“Your honor, you must aquit. For you see I intentionally killed my neighbor for their land!”
Smallpox blankets were normal human nature. After all, we are apparently animals with no higher cognitive functions of empathy.
Literally one step from saying gas chambers are human nature, jfc.
We fuckin tried to be diplomatic with these people and they called me a Nazi so now you all have our blessing to go forth and dunk
Fuck these fucking people.
They seem to think that being an Anarchist just means being anti-communist. To the point that they are literally parroting fascist taking points about “our people”. As if Jackson killing millions of Native Americans to steal their land is somehow not as bad as mismanagement of agricultural policy during a drought/famine? Because Jackson only oppressed the other right. Because a leader’s job isn’t to build a better world by harnessing the labor and skills of all people, but to either exterminate the other to protect their own or liquidate nature and the proletariat for profit
Every radlib thinks they got it all figured out til an actual anarchist shows up and then they all suddenly turn into Nazis
An an ML, I want to say I genuinely feel bad that Anarchists have to deal with this bullshit. Like, I can’t imagine being an Anarchist and having so many illiterate liberals claim their ideology while spewing reprehensible, absurd bullshit. Anarchists are comrades I respect and have principled disagreements with, but these guys? What the fuck.
All the social-chauvinists are now “Marxists” (don’t laugh!)
It’s not really any different from all the people that say they are socialists, marxists, communists and democratic socialists and then when you poke and prod them they are basically following neoliberal ideology for like 90% but then they sprinkle in some insane bullshit like Georgism and that’s their entire basis. People know that neoliberalism/liberalism/fascism and all those things are bad, they know those things are rude so they’ll just change the language mix up some non important things and call it a day. Same with Anarchists, it’s some person but they post ACAB and think that makes them an anarchist. Like they know that the cops are bad but they still really like hierarchies like patriarchy, white supremacy and economic hierarchy.
to our anarchist comrades in the posting minesLike clockwork. They don’t want to have to question their reality. They want to sit complacently at the end of history and watch the suffering around them with glib detachment or, when scratched, vociferous participation.
There’s no redeeming these groups, only hopefully some of the people in them. 196 will always be tainted because of it’s absolute inability to moderate itself. Sometimes you need aggressive purging of the ranks and the stench of 196 shows exactly what happens when you don’t take out the trash.
So Bookchin himself had some pretty terrible takes of course, but maybe he was onto something with the whole “lifestylist” critique.
Where social anarchism called upon people to rise in revolution and seek the reconstruction of society, the irate petty bourgeois who populate the subcultural world of lifestyle anarchism call for episodic rebellion and the satisfaction of their ‘desiring machines’…
He definitely got the treat obsession part right
Didn’t they go on to identify as a socialist too or something? Lmao what no theory does to a mf
The whole “Manifest Destiny is innocent because colonialism is just human nature” is very popular with Amerikkkans. I’ve heard this same shit from grade school to the workplace.
They fucking love essentializing their national crimes as products of evolutionary behavior so they can pat themselves on the back for “overcoming” their “natural” urges while being flabbergasted about the oppressed for wanting accountability from the still existing regime that perpetrated it (and still is!).
The US is what would happen if Nazi Germany survived for over 200 years.
We have the same continuous government that did ALL of those things. There has NEVER been a cleaning of house.
There has NEVER been a cleaning of house.
There will be.
Thank you.
No more half measures Walter
No morwa half measures Waltah
inshallah
human nature is when you act like an american, and the more american you act, the more human you are
ha ha psych a row of american bodies 1,111,111 miles long no mercy for the yankee dog
“The native American Genocide wasn’t that bad, because they weren’t considered human”
Sincere post - am I doing something harmful to myself or my psyche? Am I being too insular in staying away from the mental sewer pipes of
, twitter, etc in search of places where I don’t see this shit? Should I desensitize myself a little to people like this? Because I tend to avoid people like this. In real life, I’m careful to only stay close with people who are, at their core, kind and loving and empathic. I also do this online.I hate this person. I truly do, and every other sniveling, servile, cowardly, shithead like them. I don’t like hating this person, and I don’t like hating people at all. I’ll always hate
, but it’s no moral crime to hate your oppressor. For this person, my hatred feels more real and visceral and it makes me uncomfortable.A few years ago I visited White Sands National Park. To get there I had to drive through Alamogordo, a town that seems to mostly exist to service the nearby air force base. On the main tourist track that leads to the park, I passed a kind of mini strip mall set up alongside the road. It was all run-down buildings or shacks or roadside tents covered in native American symbolism with shitty names that I don’t care to repeat, selling trinkets and baubles. The people working there all looked, at a glance, to be native American as well. An entire culture reduced to selling bits of “authentic Indian silver” or whatever to scratch out a living. The survivors of a genocide trying to make some money off of the bits of their culture that can be commodified. This is my first time ever discussing that sight, and it’s still hard to articulate it. The feeling was so heavy, so suffocating, such a powerful sense of wrongness and injustice that it defies my limited powers of this language to communicate. An entire continent of people - dozens of cultures and languages and histories and peoples slaughtered and displaced and deposited at the edges of a new society that would prefer them gone and relegated to black-and-white photos.
So, GBU_28 is trying to handwave away what America did because Ghengis Khan did it as well. Native Americans weren’t “noble savages” by any means. I’m sure they fought and inflicted cruelty and callousness on their fellow man just as all peoples have done. But we stole this place. In its entirety. This entire nation, as well as its equally savage brother-country to the north, ground up the first peoples’ bones to use in the foundational concrete. Mods remove this if it’s too much, but I truly hope that GBU_28 suffers in this life. I’m fully convinced that this person who I’ve never met and I never will should truly be subject to the worst agonies and miseries conceivable by the human mind. No physical or emotional torment could compare with what they’re trying to “yada yada yada” away.
It can’t be good for me.
If it is any consolation, they are still here, they are still alive and we are fighting for their continued existence and to undo those wrongs. Even if they are too brutal and immeasurable to ever be fully undone.
https://twitter.com/ChunkaLuta1973 If you want to follow us, and follow the Red Road, then here is a place to start.
Thank you <3
Yeah that person sucks but they’re also a moron. They also obviously think they’re smarter than they are and are trying to impress people.
Hopefully its a sheltered kid who is still trying to make sense of the world around them. Someone drowned in american exceptionalism since birth and with little suffering of their own maybe can’t quite grip yet the horrors the US has enacted.
Maybe not though.
Either way they should keep their fucking mouth shut.
Idk about hatred, but it’s okay to be angry, especially if you have healthy ways of channeling that righteous anger.
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Real endlössnung hours, who’s up?
That is just open white nationalism and genocide denial
It is interesting tho watching how desperately fascists try to appropriate our terminology despite how they wield it so incoherently
Shows the inherent weakness of their positions and politics, they have nothing except what they can take from us
its really funny how libs alternate between “im just a smol bean, tankies are such meanies” and Reinhard Heydrich depending on what they are talking about
‘whataboutism’ LMAO i literally havent heard an original critique from liberals for at least two years at this point
Whataboutism is such a cursed term, literally invented by some Irish journalist (originally called it “whataboutery”) who supported the British during the Troubles, and had to make up a term to keep himself from constantly getting owned by everybody around him when he’d bitch about what the IRA was doing, and they’d point out what the Brits were doing that caused the escalation, or that made his demonizations seem trivial in comparison.
As a person of NATO, Andrew Jackson is allowed to order the ethnic cleansing of Indigenous peoples. People of NATO being able to steal land from Indigenous peoples is allowed because people of NATO are justifiably hierarchically over Indigenous peoples. I’m definitely an anarchist.
However at the same time, stopping a genocide in a neighboring country is evil and worse than hitler.
You know they’re right, we should hold the definitely still existing Golden Horde accountable for the actions of Chingis Khan. I’ll drive down to Ulaanbaatar and throw red paint on the giant statue right away (I would never do this the Mongolians are cool people and that statue owns.)
Is it this statue? Because if so, yeah, it absolutely owns.
I don’t like the idea of veneration that guy, but the statue is sick
Ah yes, Han Chinese people colonised themselves. I am very smart.
why isn’t this creep banished from hexbear yet
I specifically requested a couple hours of dunking after I pinged them here, they’ll be gone soon
I miss that chapo tradition.
So is 196 just /r/neoliberal2.0? Why did we
erate again?we defederated last night
You make some good points about how Andrew Jackson killed only in defense of his own people. Reminds me of this book written by Andolfo Hütlie.
You might be interested in checking it out if you want to understand more about the necessity of the Trail of Tears in the development of America’s big beautiful strip malls and suburbs.
Andrew Jackson committed genocidal conquest, not sure where you got the defense thing, don’t think I ever used that word.
America bad, if that helps you clock out faster. Mao, Jackson, ghengis Khan, all the same rung of hell.
Mao, Jackson, ghengis Khan, all the same rung of hell.
Clown shit. China’s life expectancy was 33 years old when Mao launched the revolution. The life expectancy went up DURING the civil war and the fascist invasion by Japan where they murdered millions of people… Because shit was so fucking bad that they could improve people’s lives even during those conditions. Even that was an improvement over the prior situation.
By the time Mao was dead, it had risen to 61 years of age.
Did the man make some mistakes? Absolutely he did. But on balance he did far more good than bad through his mistakes and you are a clown for not seeing that.
You want hell? The 100 years of exploitation China went through under the British, American, French and other international bourgeoisie prior to Mao liberating the people. The liberals responsible for that 33 year life expectancy.
The dude killed 50mil plus of his own people, via his idiocy. He can’t take credit for life expectancy and not take blame for the needless deaths.
Clearly we disagree but I think one invalidates the other.
As reference, consider this source
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1302736/global-life-expectancy-by-region-country-historical/
China’s rise is obviously a good thing, but is similar to many other nations.
You’re missing the point. Life expectancy doesn’t go up unless you’re better than what came before. The point is that even with his mistakes, the people before him were killing far far more.
The issue is that you look at these things and never compare to what came before. You look at them in a vacuum. You have no concept of what development over time is, what process is involved with improving and developing a country. You isolate these events and strip them of their historical context for the purposes of misunderstanding them and miseducating others.
Looking at things that came before? That’s whataboutism.
Historical context? That’s whataboutismAwoo, they are literally incapable of seeing that point.
You’re completely right - an increase of life expectancy even in the face of that famine means that the human suffering would have been FAR WORSE without the communists, but it would NEVER have been discussed as a point against Capitalism.
I know that but you never know who’s here lurking, listening, and learning. We were at 500 average users per day a week ago and we’re at 650 right now, this federation stuff has caused many new people to find us and I am certain that a lot of them are in the learning phase.
You defend authoritarian leaders of your favorite flavor, I say fuck em all.
You don’t say fuck em all though. You specifically focus upon communist leaders while ignoring that communists are responsible for undoing the horrible exploitation that liberal leaders were doing. You ignore the vast improvements communists consistently bring, and use their past mistakes to argue against communists wanting to bring further improvements to existing society.
We on the other hand recognise that communists by and large brought improvement to the societies they succeeded in, and we understand that by and large communists would bring improvement to the societies of today. Will they be perfect? Fuck no. We’re not utopians. But it is incredibly easy to improve people’s lives by taking all the resources currently being exploited out of people and into the pockets of Musk and the rest of the bourgeoisie and instead putting it to use improving the lives of the people.
You have built your identity around upholding the status quo rather than improving people’s lives, and that is why you spend the majority of your time focused on judging communists as bad in historical isolation devoid of context, rather than liberals being bad. You defend and uphold liberal exploitation.
yet to see you say fuck em about any genocidal authoritarian cappies so far
As in capitalists?
Im not discussing economic styles, I’m discussing genocide, nation states, etc.
But if you need the magic words to finish or whatever fuck Henry Ford he was a Nazi
Many westerners come to socialism not out of necessity, but out of disillusionment. We are raised with the idea that Liberal Democracy is the best system of political expression humanity has devised. When confronted with the reality of its shortcomings, rather than narrowly discard liberalism or electoralism, the western anti-capitalist tends to draw sweeping conclusions about the inadequacy of all existing systems. Curiously, though it would at first seem that such denunciations are more principled and severe, they are in fact more compatible with existing and widespread beliefs about the supremacy of the western system. That is to say, when a Marxist-Leninist asserts the superiority of existing socialist experiments, they are directly challenging the idea that westerners are at the forefront of political development. By contrast, the assertions […] that we need to build a more utopian future out of our current apex are compatible not only with each other, as discussed earlier, but also do not really offend bourgeois society at large. They in fact end up not sounding too different from the arch-imperialist Winston Churchill holding forth on how ours is the worst system, except for all the others which have been tried. Western chauvinists, consciously or unconsciously, struggle with the idea that they should study and humbly take lessons from the imperial periphery. [15] It is much easier for the chauvinist, psychologically, to position oneself as at the very front of a new vanguard.
For someone that “hates authoritarians” you sure do carry a lot of water for genociders and slavers. China was better off with Mao than the British empire, and if you can’t admit that then you’re just a capitalist bigot that thinks it’s ok to exploit the third world.
Admitting this doesn’t even mean Mao is good, just that you can objectively evaluate reality and the material conditions that led to the formation of the PRC.Demanding perfection of any aes project while defending the genocide of the us is sus as hell
Demanding perfection of any aes project while defending the genocide of the us is sus as hell
Communists hate him for this one weird trick
"I say fuck em all (but I will do extensive mental gymnastics to justify why genocidal fascists are better than communists)
I say fuck you and everything you believe in.
50m+ is highly disputed. The numbers range anywhere from 10-30m excess deaths in a 3 year time period. With some of those metrics counting the inverted birthrate towards death.
This is nothing out of the ordinary for developing nations, famine caused by mismanagement of agricultural land during industrialization happened in the US too, the dust bowl was a direct result of poor agricultural planning. The USSR experienced this as well, and India experienced it repeatedly.
Though India is the odd one out with the British famine protocols to basically allow mass death to keep grain prices steady. When they became a Republic they continued to experience famine for decades while China and Russia only had the one. Same as the US. Because all those countries had independence and were able to alter course and change policy to prevent it from happening again. While colonial nations and neo-colonial states were still being ruled under the old British famine laws.
Industrialization is a terrible thing to go through, and the pre-socialist states that attempted it took a century or more to build up their productive capacity and the whole time we’re going through constant famine as laboring power was shifting from agriculture to industry and development was eating up farmland.
The fact that China and Russia made it through that stage in under 50 years is a testament to the power of central planning.
Though India is the odd one out with the British famine protocols to basically allow mass death to keep grain prices steady.
Isn’t it comparable to Ireland and the potato famine?
Oops forgot that time the British starved, as this user would call them, “their own people”.
The British would NEVER consider those their own people. So they get a pass!
Not a horrific intentional genocide, nope!
Whoopsiedoodle, it’s a fair mistake tho, the British starved a lot of people. It doesn’t count tho because that wasnt capitalist, because uhh it was the east India company that did it and not the British empire? Or vice versa, anyway Stalin 100 gorillion
Yeah, consistent English colonial policy.
Stop editing your fucking comments after I’ve responded already
I don’t give a fuck about you, I added a thought as I thought it. it is my comment to do with as I please. I wasn’t going to reply two separate times.
An Indian historian on the Great Famine in China: She wrote in an essay that “[t]he figure of 30 million has passed into popular folklore … The fact that 19 million of them never existed because they were never born in the first place is not conveyed by the formulation.” She criticized the equating of China’s “missing millions” with famine deaths, rather than people who were never born due to declining birth rates. Also she claimed that “Because the internal political developments in China after 1978 were in the direction of attacking Maoist egalitarianism and the commune system, no repudiation from Chinese sources of the US estimates are to be seen”. Patnaik concluded that the figures were ideologically derived in attempts to discredit communism, while similar excessive deaths in 1990s Russia, following the collapse of the USSR, were routinely ignored.
The CIA literally carry out operations in Communist countries to cause famines. This is all public record, they’ve admitted it openly.
Spreading animal and plant diseases into the agricultural system solely to hurt people that dare to break away from Capitalism.
Why would that be necessary if Communists = no food?
The dude killed 50mil plus of his own people, via his idiocy. He can’t take credit for life expectancy and not take blame for the needless deaths.
Famines in China Pre-PRC:
- 1907 Great Qing Famine — 25 million dead
- 1920–1921 North China famine — 0.5 million dead
- 1928–1930 Chinese famine — 3 million dead
- 1936–1937 famine — 5 million dead
- 1942–1943 famine — 2.5 million dead
50M deaths for the Great Leap Forward is complete nonsense, with the usual mainstream estimate at around 30M, although this has extreme issues as well. The truth is that China was still semi-feudal and largely agrarian and that massive famines occurred regularly; this was exacerbated by Mao in some areas (and other officials’ mistakes in attempting to rapidly socialize farming during environmental issues as well), of course. Still, even during this period, life expectancy (at worst) stagnated rather than dropped. China’s rise absolutely would not have occurred had they stayed under semi-colonialism and subjugation.
Following its establishment, the PRC (from 1950-1957) had over 50% reductions in infant and child mortality and crude death compared to the old system of semi-feudalism and semi-colonialism which the U.S. attempted to enforce and uphold by financing the Kuomintang and a growth in life expectancy (from 1950-1980) which a study calls “among the most rapid sustained increases in documented global history."
Be clear: I’m not advocating imperialism, but there is a certain difference between killing millions of people through displacement, and killing millions of YOUR OWN PEOPLE through idiocy.
You draw some form of distinction between “own people” and I’m assuming “not your own people” here with the intent of somehow conflating famine with a literal intentional and organized genocide with the connotation that the lives of “not your own people” are less valuable.
In fact you aren’t just conflating those two, you’re using the idea that killing your “own people” is somehow worse than genociding people outside your group.
You’re literally making an identical argument to the Nazis.
not to mention it was the last famine in a long line of famines for thousands of years
Mao, Jackson, ghengis Khan, all the same rung of hell.
That’s not what you implied though. Saying “Mao is worse because he did it to his own people” is tantamount to running defense for Andrew fucking Jackson. Backpedaling to a “anti-authoritarian” (lol right) both sides suck stance is coward shit.
Also “whataboutism” is just a thought terminating cliché designed to stop liberals like you from experiencing cognitive dissonance and forming some semblance of a coherent worldview. It’s not a “trick” to point out double standards and historical context.
lol during Mao’s tenure China’s life expectancy doubled
not that you give a shit about the truth value of anything you’re saying
The kitten-burners seem to fulfill some urgent need. They give us someone we can clearly and correctly say we’re better than. Their extravagant cruelty makes us feel better about ourselves because we know that we would never do what they have done. They thus function as signposts of depravity, reassuring the rest of us that we’re Not As Bad As them, and thus letting us tell ourselves that this is the same thing as us being good.
That growth occured in many other countries too.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1302736/global-life-expectancy-by-region-country-historical/
All leaders of his type are shit.
no, you’re comparing a 200 year period to a 30 year period
not that you give a shit about the truth value of anything you’re saying
Shit at letting people die before the age of 40. Gottem
Average life expectancy from birth in the world and selected countries or regions in years between 1820 and 2020
So what you’re saying is Mao accomplished in one generation what took the rest of the world 200 years?
This is so dishonest, I think even you realize it.
Hey @[email protected] post hog
America bad, china bad, but you oughta post the original comment I called out. Doesn’t really matter though.
Andrew Jackson was a monster, and so was mao.
Neither country “elevated humanity” or whatever, and never will.
Cya!
Hey @[email protected] how does it feel to be a running dog for imperialists?
Amber.
amber 
If hating imperial conquest the world over makes me a running dog for imperialists, great, I guess.
Andrew Jackson and mao are 69ing each other right now.
Further, I can separately acknowledge that an authoritarian imperialist like mao is an embarrassment to his club by own-goaling his own people unlike anyone else on the planet lol
How was mao an imperialist?
He fostered the power of the state, collaborated in systems to deplatform and imprison his own people without crime, and engaged in war in korea (acknowledged that china’s help was requested, but war outside of own borders is imperial conflict). That makes you an imperialist in nature.
Even if we accept the other points, a mistake is still morally superior to an intentional action. What the fuck is with this argument?
Yeah killing the sparrows was definitely a major L, but intentionally slaughtering a hundred million people in the name of manifest destiny is literally worse than what the Nazis did (who also deserve to be thrown in a pit and burned alive).
Killing sparrows because you think sparrows will ruin crops that feed people is exactly the same as killing buffalo because you think killing buffalo would starve the Lakota into submission.
To be fair they never made that comparison, I did.
Literally the difference between a crime and not a crime
