Could you please wax lyrical on the name ‘Melbourne’ at some point? I have heard one explanation, but it fails to thrill. Would be interested in your take.
Can we wax lyrical about phrases like wax lyrical as well? I haven’t really thought about it before but I assume it has the same origin as waxing of the moon. Maybe the opposite is “wane disjointedly”, for those situations where you suddenly realise you have no idea where you are going with what you are saying an lurch awkwardly to an abrupt finish.
I’ve always used ‘wax lyrical’ to describe someone speaking of a topic in enchanting detail - not boring at all but both comprehensively and rigorously. A good after dinner speech should wax lyrical, but also be accurate in detail. Does this fit your understanding?
Absolutely. The lyrical would imply the speach is entertaining, and wax is growth/increase, which probably refers to both the amount of speaking itself, but also the knowledge that it imports, as opposed to something repetitious that adds nothing new.
You’re pretty much spot on. Wax meaning ‘grow bigger/greater’, so ‘wax lyrical’ is enthusiasm regarding a topic or person, talking at great length about it.
Wax with this meaning only really survives in the ‘wax lyrical’ idiom, and when talking about the phases of the moon.
Melbourne, named for Lord Melbourne (iirc, I didn’t look that part up hah).
‘Melbourne’ comes from an Old English place-name Mileburne, comprised of mylen (mill) + burne (stream). Literally, Mill-Stream.
mylen, utimately, can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European mele-, meaning ‘to crush, grind’.
burne can also be traced back through the Proto-Germanic word *brunnô to the P.I.E word *bʰréh₁wr̥, meaning 'to bubble forth, wellspring, fountain).
It is important to note that P.I.E is a reconstruction based on commonalities between many European and Iranian languages. There is no archeological evidence of this langauge, but it would have been spoken between 4500BC and 2500BC, give or take a thousand years or so. It is the best understood Proto- language, but new information and understanding is always being sought for regarding these reconstructions.
Interesting. The explanation I heard differed a bit on the ‘bourne’ component. It referenced the word ‘bourne’ to mean a fenced enclosure - Hamlet’s soliloquy uses “that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveller returns” to mean heaven/death cos no-one except Jesus comes back through them pearly gates. And apparently Lord Melbourne took his name from an obscure country village called Melbourne that had been a fenced iron-age camp at some point. I do agree that the Scots use ‘burn’ to mean a stream of water, but I didn’t think this was English usage as such. Burn usually meaning ‘be destroyed by fire’. Which doesn’t exactly fit with the stream/fountain bit. Interesting that two such different meanings can be derived.
That’s also another explanation. From my understanding, bourne/burne/burn and the meaning of ‘stream’ came to Old English via Germanic, but would have fell out of usage with that meaning in English as it changed and evolved over time. I thought it may be a cognate or related to ‘brook’, as in ’ a babbling brook’ but I haven’t been able to find a link, though both bourne/burne/burn and brook come from Germanic.
I wonder if the Scots got ‘burn’ back due to the heavy influence from Scandinavia - Vikings etc. I love following rabbit holes like these. Of absolutely no importance to current life whatsoever, but so fascinating.
I dived a bit deeper heheh. So bourne/burne/burn means ‘stream’ in Old English, from Proto-Germanic, this meaning has falled out of usage with this meaning in modern English, and is retained in placenames, i.e Melbourne. Borne refers to being ‘carried/sustained’, past participle of bear “to bear a great burden” Bourn in the context of Hamlet means ‘boundary/border’, so only Jesus can pass through the borders of Heaven back to Earth. This comes from French and is thought to be a variant of bodne ‘boundary/limit’
Scots Gaelic bùrn is a cognate (sister, comes from the same root word) with the Old English word and meaning. Like you said, it most likely got to Scots Gaelic through Scandinavia/Vikings and Proto-Germanic.
Could you please wax lyrical on the name ‘Melbourne’ at some point? I have heard one explanation, but it fails to thrill. Would be interested in your take.
Can we wax lyrical about phrases like wax lyrical as well? I haven’t really thought about it before but I assume it has the same origin as waxing of the moon. Maybe the opposite is “wane disjointedly”, for those situations where you suddenly realise you have no idea where you are going with what you are saying an lurch awkwardly to an abrupt finish.
I’ve always used ‘wax lyrical’ to describe someone speaking of a topic in enchanting detail - not boring at all but both comprehensively and rigorously. A good after dinner speech should wax lyrical, but also be accurate in detail. Does this fit your understanding?
Absolutely. The lyrical would imply the speach is entertaining, and wax is growth/increase, which probably refers to both the amount of speaking itself, but also the knowledge that it imports, as opposed to something repetitious that adds nothing new.
etymology reply 2
You’re pretty much spot on. Wax meaning ‘grow bigger/greater’, so ‘wax lyrical’ is enthusiasm regarding a topic or person, talking at great length about it.
Wax with this meaning only really survives in the ‘wax lyrical’ idiom, and when talking about the phases of the moon.
😂
etymology reply 4
Melbourne, named for Lord Melbourne (iirc, I didn’t look that part up hah).
‘Melbourne’ comes from an Old English place-name Mileburne, comprised of mylen (mill) + burne (stream). Literally, Mill-Stream.
mylen, utimately, can be traced back to Proto-Indo-European mele-, meaning ‘to crush, grind’.
burne can also be traced back through the Proto-Germanic word *brunnô to the P.I.E word *bʰréh₁wr̥, meaning 'to bubble forth, wellspring, fountain).
It is important to note that P.I.E is a reconstruction based on commonalities between many European and Iranian languages. There is no archeological evidence of this langauge, but it would have been spoken between 4500BC and 2500BC, give or take a thousand years or so. It is the best understood Proto- language, but new information and understanding is always being sought for regarding these reconstructions.
https://aussie.zone/u/RustyRaven
Interesting. The explanation I heard differed a bit on the ‘bourne’ component. It referenced the word ‘bourne’ to mean a fenced enclosure - Hamlet’s soliloquy uses “that undiscovered country from whose bourne no traveller returns” to mean heaven/death cos no-one except Jesus comes back through them pearly gates. And apparently Lord Melbourne took his name from an obscure country village called Melbourne that had been a fenced iron-age camp at some point. I do agree that the Scots use ‘burn’ to mean a stream of water, but I didn’t think this was English usage as such. Burn usually meaning ‘be destroyed by fire’. Which doesn’t exactly fit with the stream/fountain bit. Interesting that two such different meanings can be derived.
etymology reply 3
That’s also another explanation. From my understanding, bourne/burne/burn and the meaning of ‘stream’ came to Old English via Germanic, but would have fell out of usage with that meaning in English as it changed and evolved over time. I thought it may be a cognate or related to ‘brook’, as in ’ a babbling brook’ but I haven’t been able to find a link, though both bourne/burne/burn and brook come from Germanic.
I wonder if the Scots got ‘burn’ back due to the heavy influence from Scandinavia - Vikings etc. I love following rabbit holes like these. Of absolutely no importance to current life whatsoever, but so fascinating.
etymology reply
I dived a bit deeper heheh. So bourne/burne/burn means ‘stream’ in Old English, from Proto-Germanic, this meaning has falled out of usage with this meaning in modern English, and is retained in placenames, i.e Melbourne.
Borne refers to being ‘carried/sustained’, past participle of bear “to bear a great burden”
Bourn in the context of Hamlet means ‘boundary/border’, so only Jesus can pass through the borders of Heaven back to Earth. This comes from French and is thought to be a variant of bodne ‘boundary/limit’
Scots Gaelic bùrn is a cognate (sister, comes from the same root word) with the Old English word and meaning. Like you said, it most likely got to Scots Gaelic through Scandinavia/Vikings and Proto-Germanic.