I mean, Trump is also defending genocide too though…
Trump being worse deosn’t mean we can’t criticize Biden right now as the sitting president. I have been very supportive of the need to vote for Biden over Trump, but the Democrats need to stop doubling down on denying the atrocities in Gaza already.
Like they aren’t even using nuance or anything at this point. Threateninng the ICC is absolutely ridiculous.
This is unilaterally discrediting our country on the world stage. Trump was bad enough, but we could tell the world over half the county opposed him, and that he lost the popular vote.
This guy won the popular vote, and he’s out there supporting genocide. What a fucking embarrassment to humanity these “leaders” are. Fuck them both.
Obligatory yes, I will be voting for Biden again to fend off Trump. I’ll like it even less than I did last time, though.
You are absolutely not obligated to say who you will be voting for.
If anything you’ve undercut your ‘fuck them both’ by following it with ‘but of course I will be supporting THIS ONE SPECIFICALLY’.
Do what you want at the voting booth but don’t undercut your own message by announcing your hand.
First things first.
Criticizing Biden is fine, and everyone should, for the first three years and six months.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit. But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on. (Agree dissing ICC is vr bad as well fwiw)
Until then, there is not much difference between “not voting bc genoside” / “grr biden genocide democrats” and https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/
I can only think people either are very aware of it (because it’s exactly right) or not aware of it at all, possibly their first time eligible to vote.
Bibi may lose this election for Biden, and spiral the world downward. This will only strengthen the ties the US has with Israel, however. Trump would absolutely throw a ton of weight behind them, and perhaps even involve the US directly in the genocide.
Bibi doesn’t give a shit about Biden, and Biden is showing an astonishing amount of weakness by not standing up to him. I’m fucking embarrassed for him, and the entire democratic party.
If the only possible outcome is a strengthening of relations with a genocidal colonial project then the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
the American democratic experiment has been dead for a long time
Yes?
Agreed. If the Bushes hadn’t fucked us up so much in the middle east already we’d have maybe at least one or two more options, but right-wing assholes like GDubz and Bibi ruin everything.
But once trump is defeated we’ll all dogpile on.
So one of the other things that is very frustrating is always being told that we just need to wait until after the next election to criticize anything. Our election cycles never seem to end.
Yeah man life is really fuckin frustrating. Welcome to earf.
That’s kind of how ‘self rule’ works. You’re supposed to pay attention to politics.
People not voting is how we got in this mess in the first place.
Why do you think the GOP’s final defense is always “both sides do it?”
You absolutely should not be waiting until the next election cycle. You should be voicing your opinion, voting in off-cycle and local elections, and voting for the least harmful option in every election, including the presidential election. It’s a huge machine and voting once every 4 years for the pre-packaged candidate isn’t an effective strategy if you actually want things to change.
Vote for people that make things better in your community, city, county, state, and then think about federal elections. Displacing the trove of do-nothings or detrimental actors in the smaller elections will change sentiment in the parties and will change the candidates they put through in the primaries… but it will take years for that to happen.
Either that or revolution… but that’s going to be a whole lot worse for everyone for a few decades, best case scenario.
That’s the problem. Most of the far left idealists don’t give a shit between elections. This happens every cycle. And every cycle they never learn.
Citation please. The most politically active people I know are well to the left of me. The handful of tankies I know in real life are the most active.
Who’s their candidate? For anything?
Citation? Really? Most of social media is backed up. Go ahead and see how much the SJW’s were caring about Palestine in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2023.
You do know they have been in conflict since 1948, right? You all act like this shit is new. And it shows in the fact that NONE of you gave a shit about it until now.
Bull, to the fucking shit. Genocide isn’t just something you can fucking put off. Unless you don’t really care about the genocide. Seems you’re more upset at the optics. And let’s also mention that Biden is not any more angry at the genocide than you seem to be. All his moves are token and theater and even that was only bought with mass protests and plunging confidence numbers.
People are being genocided ‘TODAY’
Seems you’re more upset at the optics.
I’m more upset that in roughly twenty weeks’ time there is a critical, no-shit, very real existential threat to the actual democratic system that underpins this entire country, which as it happens supports much of the rest of the world, and a bunch of opportunistic yahoos would happily ignore it to bitch about one of the most progressive presidents we’ve had in forty years about an entirely different country’s genocide whose policies by the by is supported by that same existential motherfucking threat he’s fighting! For goddamned fuck’s SAKE what the hell is wrong with you.
The ‘biden genicide’ crowd is absolutely performing the russian trolls’ jobs admirably. And seem to be proud of it.
Also, if it wasn’t clear, Biden is super pissed off at Bibi for all his shit.
It really fucking isn’t. At all. He recently went full genocide denier on Bibi’s behalf.
This is the reasonable take.
Democrats have no choice but to condemn the ICC and deny the genocide is happening because for some completely unknown reason the electorate has been lead to believe Israel is a good, moral state actor with absolutely no ill-intent and has never done anything wrong that was unjustified.
Now if they ever lie to me about Israel and I find out about it…
Every time Bibi claims that the IDF is the most moral army in the world I roll my eyes.
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities. Or at least none that I’ve seen-
But what I AM seeing is a lot of people that understand the nuance in the situation, and trying to explain that not voting is going to get Trump. I also see people coming back to challenge this in bad faith knowing it’s been explained to them many times over.
But we’re not allowed to call these people what they are. So we have to play along with it and pretend it’s all legitimate.
The only reason you feel you have to pretend that it’s legitimate is because it’s true on face-value: democrats have chosen a losing position and are going to lose because of it. Rather than pledging fealty before we need to it’s far more important to work to get democrats to ammend their policy
Wishing people would ignore the issue and hold their nose isn’t a strategy to keep Trump out, it’s denial
I don’t think anyone is denying the atrocities.
“Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what’s happening is not genocide.” - Joe Biden.
Jesus fucking Christ man. Read for the topic, now for what you want it to mean…
No one was talking about Biden. We’re clearly talking about how the far left accuses anyone that is still voting as supporting genocide.
Goalposts can teleport, I see.
Yes, but Republican voters pretty much ALWAYS vote, and they vote R down the whole ticket. A large portion of people who vote for Democrats only show up to vote if there is someone they can get excited about. Establishment Dems should consider this a law of the universe; it simply is the way it is. Instead of continuously trying to bully these people into showing up to vote (which has the opposite effect) maybe they should start asking what would get these people excited to vote for Joe. And then get Joe to do those things.
They act like everyone owes them a vote. They don’t. They are asking for something from the left, they need to start negotiating in good faith and expect to have to give something in return. Doing anything less than whatever it takes to get people to vote for Joe should be considered them trying to lose and get Trump elected again.
Democrats fall in love.
Republicans fall in line.
I think the die-hard Trump cultists are genuinely in love with him, though.
And yet Democratic leadership keeps operating under the assumption that they can order Democrats to fall in line.
That would work if voters are reasonable but they’re not, there’s been something every single time - and yes it’s always ‘but this time it’s serious’
Could you explain what you mean a bit more?
Every election there is a reason that the left candidate isn’t left enough for the purists - every single time.
I have a question, seriously: why are we looking to the President - the Chief Executive Officer - to define our policy? Isn’t he supposed to only implement the policies that have been enacted by Congress? Despite how Rs tried to portray Obama, and how Trump would act if given half a chance, the role of President isn’t identical to that of King - just how much leeway does he even have here? When tRump tried to insert himself in the opposite manner way back in the day, we impeached him - the President can propose but not define policy, right?
On that note, he did try to halt funding to Israel. Republicans in Congress overruled him. Ofc the reality is far more complex than what I am portraying here, b/c while he must enact existing policies, again he also should propose new ones too… which he isn’t doing much of. But how could we even tell the difference between Biden attempting to “work within the (existing) system”, set forth by our behind-the-scenes overlords and Congress + Supreme Court (heavy sidenote: with its current make-up, that Trump put into place), vs. him not really caring that much about the issue at all? Or really, at the end of the day, is there even a functional difference between them?
I don’t know. I truly don’t know. All I know is that while Biden may not be as liberal as people would have hoped, tRump is actively anti-liberal. And those are our two choices. :-( If we want better, perhaps we need to put forth some effort to make it happen. Like step up and actually run for office - and then dodge all the literal death threats + attempts that would result from conservatives for doing so. Otherwise, we get whatever they offer to us - they meaning those who will actually act rather than simply talk. Which remember, Biden is one of them, and he even has already made it to the short-list of the only two candidates who matter, which isn’t nothing!
He also called the ICC warrant against Israeli leaders outrageous and is stonewalling every attempt by the UN to intervene against Israel.
I don’t think he gets a pass on this
Thanks, that’s helpful.:-)
He may still be trying to work the issue from the inside, but indeed there’s a line there, somewhere.
We still only get the two choices though:-(.
He gets to balance the power of Congress. He can refuse to enforce their bullshit. But more importantly he’s the leader of the Democratic party. He has massive influence on the direction the party takes, and can put pressure on members who get out of line.
I think most people are done with people who try to “work within the system set forth by our behind the scenes over lords”… We want someone who’s going to call them on that crap constantly and fight against it with every move they make. Biden is clearly not doing that.
I actually got heavily involved with politics after Bernie. Including running for office in a very red district where I had no chance of winning (just happened to be where I was living). Turns out, the establishment would rather reject anyone left of them and lose to Republicans, than to move an inch to the left and anger their masters
Biden has been deliberately bypassing Congress to send Israel weapons: https://lemmy.today/comment/8531642
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
Yes, and GWB was a horrible person for doing that. I thought we learned from these mistakes?
and what happened? oh yeah actual leftist rabble roused and protested the Iraq war, whereas centrist Dems were lockstep with Republicans to invade over lies.
Great example, it really shows how little Dems have cared about leftists for decades.
Aaaaand…how did that protest go for ya? Did it work? Did anything change?
No?
Imagine that.
Great example. It really shows how little the far left understands nuance and common sense.
I guess you are right. Maybe I should be in favor of war and genocide then because it’s always working. Thank you kind stranger, I will stop protesting now.
So… knowing that some protests in the past have been pointless is the key to supporting genocide now?
You seem to like going WAY out of your way to maintain ignorance, don’t you? Instead of accepting that your point was dismissed, you opted to throw a hissy fit and cut off your own nose in a bad faith attempt to make another point.
Incredibly childish.
It was sarcasm
Shhh! People haven’t been terminally online about Israel/Palestine for the past several years juy to admit, in this moment, that their own country commits larger atrocities every day. What do you expect them to do, admit that their own country was founded on settler colonialism and that their continued participation amounts to what Zionism is: a belief that the settlements you live on are legitimate and should be protected?
This is such a weird gotcha, because I don’t know a single person who denounces the Israel’s genocidal behavior who isn’t also denouncing America’s genocidal behavior. Like, yeah, killing innocent people is bad; let’s keep this bandwagon going and overthrow all genocidal governments, please!
America’s killing of civlians during the Iraq war was absolutely a horrible atrocity, but it wasn’t genocide. Words have meaning.
America’s been around a lot longer than the beginning of the Iraq war. We nearly eradicated the Native Americans to gain their land, we’ve placed illegitimate governments in Honduras and Guatemala, nearly eradicating the Mayan population for the sake of our own economic exploitation of the area, and so on. And honestly, most people backed the Iraq war specifically because they hated middle eastern people, so I don’t think calling it a genocide would be much of a stretch; if the area’s population were small enough to easily suppress the way the Mayans were, we’d have probably just focused on that strategy again in order to secure the cheap oil we were after.
Comment chain started with this:
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
I was just staying on topic.
My comment was in response to a comment about American colonialism and the genocide that came along with it, which is why I addressed it. Topics often change throughout the course of a conversation, and the same can happen in a comment thread.
Can count Vietnam, north Korean too.
Still not sure why you think they are related othet than people were killed.
The comment chain started with:
Also USA killed this many civilians in Iraq per year, during the entire duration of the war.
So just false equivalent to compare number of deaths to make a genocide not look like a genocide?
And promising to do one here
Shitty justifications for Biden’s support for genocide I’ve actually seen on lemmy:
In third place: That’s the way we’ve always done it.
In second: We’re worried that the people who chanted “Jews will not replace us” will call us antisemitic.
And now in first place: Trump did it so that makes it ok.
Let’s just get this clear: Most everyone “defending” genocide aren’t happy what’s happening. If the world was perfect and always going the way we wanted, this would never be. We don’t vote Biden, even if we celebrate the (all too uncommen) victories. We vote Blue, for hope.
Let’s just get this clear: Most everyone “defending” genocide aren’t happy what’s happening.
Provided you ignore how angry they get when you suggest that Biden stop supporting genocide.
Is this ‘bOtH sIdEs’? or ‘wHaTaBoUt TrUmP’?
The way I interpreted their comment is that people often mention Biden supports genocide and some people may assume Trump doesn’t - so it’s worth mentioning that of course Trump supports genocide too (on top of all the other horrible shit he supports contributing to why he shouldn’t be in power).
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am amazed that anyone on lemmy.world could have possibly thought people on lemmy were unaware of Trump’s encouragement of genocide.
I am not surprised that it seems to be the only concern.
If I’ve learned anything about people through the past decade of politics its that you can never ever assume anything about people being intelligent in any group.
If I’ve learned anything about political discourse it’s that you have to assume that some level of mutual understanding is possible for communication to be worthwhile, and for everything to not devolve into back and forth trolling. So, while you can’t assume intelligence, sure, you also kind of have to.
So given it an election year you could agree that comparing both potential future presidents is a healthy option.
Guess your argument is self-defeating, I’m gonna go for a hike 🤷🌲🌲
In an election year I would agree that agitating complacent liberals into caring about warcrimes is a healthy option
I would be amazed if anyone on lemmy.world was at all unaware of trump’s encouragement of genocide.
Plenty seem to think there’s no difference between the two, so they’re either unaware or fascists.
I actually think the the problem is that most here think there is a difference between Biden supporting genocide and Trump supporting genocide.
“There’s literally no difference between the position of Trump and Biden on the Palestinian genocide” - A Very Serious Archomrade
“There’s literally a big difference between supporting a genocide but not wanting to and supporting a genocide and wanting to” - A very serious pugjesus.
ITT: you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide.
There’s a lot of people who plan on voting Biden, myself included, who effectively feel held hostage at this point. “Don’t criticize support for genocide or Trump is going to destroy the country and probably kill a lot of people” is probably one of the most frustrating political discourses I’ve ever experienced. The folks making this argument are right in that Trump winning is bad for everyone, including the Palestinians, and I can empathize with the pragmatism there. That said, that argument rings hollowly for me, because it comes across as so utterly cynical. It reads (to me) as though genocide registers at the same level of urgency as dysfunction at the DMV. They’re sorry for the inconvenience (and probably they really are sorry that it’s happening) but non-combatants getting starved, shot, drone striked, and buried under rubble by our allies is just not something that’s convenient to deal with right now. I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
I mean its barely about what people here think.
Broadly, Biden supporting this genocide in the way that he has is costing him the election. Acknowledging this doesn’t mean you support Trump. Arguing that if you don’t support Biden in-spite of this position is headspinning, and some posters here (@[email protected] ) are doing the work of trying to separate the left from Democrats in this regard.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
So what if you’ve been convinced that its OK for Biden do a little genocide? The whole god-damned point is that other people don’t believe the same thing you do, and if you actually want to stop Trump you really only have two options. You can either try to convince voters that a little genocide is acceptable if its coming from Democrats, or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
Its far more sensible to bring your criticisms to the Democrats in showing that you wont vote for them if they don’t shift their positions on Gaza, than it is to engage in a demonstrable failure of an approach to rhetoric to try and shame people into voting for a only slightly less supportive of genocide candidate.
You can move a politician. Every election cycle politicians move positions. I mean fucking hell, look how far the left was able to drag Biden last election cycle! He basically went from a Republican slate of policy positions to something actually on the left. He didn’t do this his own; he did this to get elected because that’s what the voters wanted. Biden can be moved on this, but blaming voters, especially when you know they are on the right side of the issue, is setting 2024 up for disaster.
I’m just amazed at the amount they punch left then don’t understand why it’s always an issue.
Maybe I’ve gotten too old and cynical to be surprised by it.
Its been the theme of the modern Democratic party to work diligently to cut off your nose to spite your face.
I mean look at the recent jungle primary in California. Adam Schiffs campaign spent millions supporting Republicans in that primary to avoid having to compete against Katie Porter.
It often seems like Democrats have nothing but contempt for their voters. Its not clear to me that they care. Its only a very very few number of Democrats who are actually responsive to their voters.
I hate how dirty they did Katie. But not surprised considering she’d actually hold people to account.
(and of course you got banned from the community but pug is allowed to constantly attack people)
There were 24 hours of bliss about a week ago when pugjesus was temp banned
Just amazed they banned someone for trolling while pug gets to shit and spam everywhere in this community
Frankly I’m a bit alarmed i haven’t been banned myself. I can imagine the mod logs are full of complaints at this point
The problem is that beating/ guilting/shaming voters doesn’t work.
You forgot to add gaslighting.
or you can try and convince Democrats that no amount of genocide is acceptable, regardless of the ally committing it.
The problem is that there is absolutely no way of “forcing” the (so-called) “Democratic” party on this through “formal” means - if you vote for them and they win, they will simply know that they can get you to rubber-stamp their complicity in genocide. If you vote for them and they lose or you punish them by not voting and they lose, they still won’t care - they know that four years of Trump will force you back to the ballots to vote for them in four years’ time anyway. In fact, I suspect they are betting on the latter scenario.
You’re being pushed up against a wall - a wall that wouldn’t be there if you actually lived in a democratic society.
Or your not being gaslit, Biden is being honest, and you’re wrong about the underlying factual premise.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence… I assume you have some?
I’m gonna go touch some grass, i’ll pass my baton to you.
Gotchu.
Everyone should block PugJesus for a better Lemmy experience.
PugJesus has been a constant wedge between Leftists and Liberals. They only serve to be a terminally online agitator, and whenever it’s pointed out that their agitative propaganda only serves to confirm anti-leftist bias among Lemmy.world’s liberals and further ruins a broader leftist-liberal coalition, ironically making fewer people vote for Biden, they just mald and disengage.
When I asked what they truly believe, they believe themselves to be a leftist that doesn’t agree with Marx’s Dialectical Materialism.
They reserve only the harshest criticism for actually existing Socialist movements, such as when they trashed the Black Panther Party, but fight tooth and nail for a nuanced view of Liberalism and Liberal movements against Leftists.
It truly makes me wonder if PugJesus has any actual firmly held beliefs or if they just act in reflex.
W How is it costing him the election any polls to back this up?
Nobody thinks a little genocide is okay. Nobody is saying that at all. But it’s not a choice between a little genocide and no genocide. It’s a difference between a little genocide and a LOT of genocide. When Trump gives his blessing to glassing Gaza with a nuke, will you tell the remnants of the civilians that are left that it’s fine because the Democrats will understand now that they should’ve been harder on Israel?
What is actually more important? Doing what’s best for the Palestinians from the options that actually exist, or punishing Democrats?
I’m not any happier than you are about the choices that we have, but wishful thinking doesn’t give us a third path. This isn’t a movie. To get a third option you’d have to convince at the very least a plurality of the population of the US to vote for another candidate that is gung-ho behind forcing Israel to stop (a proposition that isn’t guaranteed even if the US cuts off all support today, by the way). That’s a tall order, especially with how well it’s going convincing 100 or so people on a Lemmy thread.
The problem is that beating/ guilting/ shaming voters doesn’t work. It literally never has. Its been demonstrated, over and over again to be a counterproductive strategy.
Ah yes, the evidence of that being [checks notes] Hillary, a notoriously unpopular and uncharismatic politician, narrowly losing due to the electoral college.
I guess people in 2020 were just REALLY fired up about Biden, huh?
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
Its 4 years later.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election, they have the same policy: Genocide for the people of Palestine.
You should stop being an apologist for genocide.
They were really fired up AGAINST Trump.
That sounds almost like guilt or shame at the prospect of letting Trump win.
In terms of the policy position that is going to decide this election
Fucking lmao
She didn’t lose narrowly because of the electoral college.
She lost massively because even knowing the rules of the election didn’t campaign at all in the Midwest swing States while receiving increasingly alarmed warnings from the local DNC members in those States.
Your response is like a loser going ‘I wouldn’t have lost if it wasn’t for the rules’ when everyone knew the rules in advance.
You can argue for getting rid of the electoral college and if be right there with you. But you don’t get to pretend it’s not a thing when trying to win before you get rid of it.
Criticize all you want. I certainly do. But understand at the end of the day that as pathetically little as Biden is doing to help, he isn’t doing literally zero. Allowing Trump to win is objectively voting for MORE genocide, and in fact, the end of any potential for a Palestinian state in any form. None of this is secret - none of this is speculation. If people would take 15 minutes and read the ACTUAL Trump middle eastern peace plan that he ACTUALLY PUT FORTH when he was president, it’s pretty obvious he would allow MUCH MUCH worse than Biden without batting an eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan
There is no room for argument on that. Is Biden bad for Palestinians and allowing genocide? Yes. Would allowing Trump to win be WORSE? Yes. You’re upset that angry wolves are eating someone, and you should be. But the solution is not replacing them with angry bears.
They literally just said they were voting for Biden. Why are you lecturing them? All you’re doing is demonstrating that Democrats don’t listen.
Okay, fair point, and I acknowledge it. I’m no saint and I get preachy. It’s a character flaw, and I apologize if I caused offense.
This is such a weird strawman
Nobody on Lemmy likes genocide, as far as I can tell. I saw somebody who was in favor of it a couple days ago, which makes 2 users I have ever seen.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
Then a second whole bunch of people said hey every single one of those things except part of the last one isn’t true, also, Trump is worse on the genocide piece
And so now the first people are insisting that what the second people said was, “Don’t criticize support for genocide”. That wasn’t the point. The fact that a good bit of what the people in the first group are saying, is wrong, means they get people disagreeing with them, which always gets misrepresented as some lunatic pro-genocide silencing of criticism. But it’s pretty much never a message of “please stop criticizing my genocide guy otherwise Trump might win.”
If you want to express urgency about helping the Palestinians, please do so. Send messages to your congresspeople. Vote “uncommitted.” Go to a protest. Tell Biden he’ll only get your vote if he (X, Y, Z). Any of those things, or something else. Sounds great.
I think the thing you’re hearing is more “I want to end genocide just as much as you do, now let’s talk about how to do it, and also yes how to avoid one that’s 10 times worse that depending on how we go about it might be one of the possible outcomes.” I don’t see why that would be frustrating to hear. And I don’t think it’s at all the same as “please stop criticizing Biden that’s not allowed” or anything like that. Most of the threads on this topic have their most upvoted comment as “Jesus Christ I wish he wouldn’t do that” or something along those lines; this fiction where criticizing Biden for enabling this genocide is at all unpopular is not at all the reality.
I wonder if they think the Palestinians find it very convenient.
Actually, one of them weighed in on Lemmy on this exact narrative, where people are using his dead relatives to justify this one very particular political stance about being reluctant to vote for Joe Biden (and for some reason not to justify getting involved in some electoral or non-electoral way to actually help his relatives who are still alive). He wasn’t about it.
Is it a straw man, though? Just look at the post we’re in. OP, at face value, wants the democrats to win but thinks they’re bungling the odds by supporting genocide. There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters, as well as at least one commenter I’ve seen so far suggesting that we can’t be critical about this now because the election is too important.
There’s already multiple commenters accusing them of being Trump supporters
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
The strawman I was specifically responding to was that commenter “you’re a Trump supporter if you call genocide genocide”. I’ve called it a genocide many many times; never got called a Trump supporter. I’ve said Biden is enabling it, said all the Palestinians will be dead by the time he works his way around to real consequences for Netanyahu at this rate, compared the Biden State Department to the Nazis, lots of stuff. I said we should contact our representatives and left some links (not that it did a fuckin thing.) Linked to a Ralph Nader interview where he talked about how to demand concessions in exchange for your vote, to put pressure on elected officials like Biden, particularly as it applies to this genocide. Never got called a Trump supporter.
You know what I didn’t do? Get all emotional about how I really don’t want to vote for Biden now, and suggest a particular framing for the issue that will help Trump, but won’t help the Palestinians. I suspect that if I started doing that, and did it consistently every day from a variety of different viewpoints and combined it with a bunch of other criticism of Biden that wasn’t true, then people might suspect I was a Trump supporter. But I don’t do that. Why? Because I’m not a Trump supporter.
Yes, because he framed his point in one particular emotionally resonant way that just maybe by pure coincidence tends to do more or less nothing at all for the Palestinians except hurt them, and by pure coincidence happens to feed Trump’s chances in the election.
I’ve seen so many tinfoil hat comments from you at this point that I’m sure you must be feeling lonely.
I’m not rooting for a trump presidency. I’m rooting for Biden to stop a genocide, and I believe 1000% Biden will lose on this issue alone if he doesn’t address it.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover” and man is that just exactly what I wish my Dad who went to get cigarettes and never came back would have called me before he left. I agree with you. People for some damned reason seem to be stuck.
The Genocide sucks balls.
Trump sucks balls.
Trump + Power = Genocide Ball Sucking on a whole new level
Biden sucks a bit less balls, though would suck far less if he stepped up and actually condemned the Genocide properly. Currently, Biden’s big balls are on fire.
Like, none of this situation is good. Most of it is malicious and evil on too many levels, and faaaar more complicated than the majority of us realize. At the end of the day we do have three significant immediate problems:
- Ukraine and Putin
- Gaza and the Genocide
- Trump and the GOP
We CAN focus on all of these and it doesn’t have to be to the exclusion, or support/lack-thereof, of the others. Problem is, every time you say “Shit’s bad and this Genocide is evil, vote Biden for the love of God.” Someone comes screaming in with a, “BIDEN?! YOU SUPPORT GENOCIDE?!” and you can’t get a sideways word in.
I think a lot of it is this weird parasocial thing where it’s like you have to “support” a politician to vote for them. With very rare exceptions I don’t “support” any US politician, like I’m friends with them. I just want to get as good an outcome as I can for me and the other people in the world, and I think that’ll come from a combination of choosing better outcomes within the system that’s presented, and working outside the system to try to change it to introduce as much actual democracy into it in the long run as is possible.
I personally think the alternative perspective is a weird one, where politicians and policies are monolithic and unmovable, and challenging them necessarily means damaging the entire system. I was always taught that the strength of democracy was its enabling of negotiation, but you’re suggesting that there’s no negotiation to be had at all.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
I think proactively committing to voting for a morally abhorrent candidate (a candidate promoting a morally abhorrent position, if you prefer) is less than submissive, it’s actually giving up the only possible leverage you might have had in order to accept a reality that hasn’t happened yet.
I talked about this - withholding your vote to put pressure on Biden and communicating to him effectively that that’s what you’re doing makes perfect sense to me. I linked to the Ralph Nader article where he talks about doing that.
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I’m just saying how I look at the election. Unless Biden had some sort of mental break that made him start acting worse than Trump in terms of what he’ll do with power, I’m planning on voting for him. If I thought lying about that would create a positive impact in some way, then yeah, maybe I might. IDK. Maybe not. I definitely wouldn’t be as vocal about how ok a job he’s doing, yeah.
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though. Why is the genocide in Gaza a red line but preventing a genocide in Ukraine, or saving a million American lives from the next pandemic, or mitigating climate change (to whatever extent we even still can) moving the needle away from billions of lost lives in the not-too-distant future, why aren’t those red lines?
It’s absolutely a choice you are making, and even if you’d feel better if that didn’t make you guilty of ‘supporting’ genocide, i think it’s kind of self-evident.
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better. I think I linked somewhere to a comment from someone who claimed to be Palestinian American who actually specifically asked Americans not to do this (use his dead relatives as justification for their political stance which was going to endanger him much more along with many of his still living relatives). It’s on bestof if you didn’t see it.
There are lots of Palestinian Americans calling on people to Abandon Biden. One token Palestinian American on Lemmy who disagrees isn’t particularly persuasive.
“If it came down to Trump and Joe Biden, I will vote for Trump. Because it doesn’t get worse than Joe Biden,” a man named Salah told me. His friend, Amad, added, “Biden was supposed to be the peacemaker. The comfort-maker. Instead, he became accessory to the biggest genocide in modern history.”
…
“Imagine thinking it’s a good argument to say to a community that has lost 30,000 people, ‘Watch out for the guy that’s going to ban you.’ You’re really asking me whether I’m going to take a ban or a genocide? I’ll take a ban,” Zahr told me.
“I mean, we’ve literally seen our families and our people being thrown into mass graves. Babies blown to bits. It’s not some far-off thing to us,” he said. “It’s been a struggle to declare our own humanity while mourning for our people being massacred.”
…
The truth is Ahmed was one of the only Arabs I could find in Dearborn who openly admitted they actually planned to vote for Biden in November.
I don’t think he was using that example in good faith, frankly. He’s a reasonable guy but even reasonable people get tempted by convenient evidence
If I thought Biden read Lemmy and would read my comments and react differently in Gaza, would I do my comments differently, so as to avoid taking the pressure off him that he’s currently feeling? Yeah, maybe. Probably. I don’t think that’s the reality, but if I thought that, I probably would do my comments differently.
I don’t think you realize how far reaching popular opinion can spread through social media. I don’t think Biden is reading, either, but if the sentiment that he’ll lose was more widespread, then I think that would absolutely put pressure on him. I also think the complacent stance can reach quite far, which is why it’s frustrating seeing people like pugjesus so militant about reinforcing it and why I think it’s frustrating to you to see me and others agitating action. (It wouldn’t make sense for you to be worried about bad actors otherwise)
Proactively committing to not voting for preservation of American democracy and prevention of catastrophe around the world, because Netanyahu started a genocide and Biden hasn’t caused a revolution in American statecraft by opposing it for the first time in history, doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, though
I’ll tell you what I read into this: American imperialist state action is so ingrained in the democratic party that it is inconceivable to you that they’d let it go, even in the face of a literal fascist taking control. And I think the people you’re talking to here, who’ve felt for a long time that America has been on the wrong side of geopolitical struggle for 80 years, find that to be the most damning part of your position.
It’s inconceivable to wish fascism onto the people of America and the world, but that the democratic party can sooner accept it than consider pulling back the American global apparatus is… well, I guess it makes it hard to root for them, doesn’t it?
It seems kind of weird to get all amped up about how great a job you’re doing at not supporting genocide, by doing something that endangers Palestinians specifically but also apparently makes you feel better
I think what you mean is that it’s convenient, but I obviously don’t see it that way. I think it would absolutely help the Palestinians for the US to stop obstructing justice against Israeli leaders, and I don’t accept the premise that their reality would somehow be worse than it already is if trump was egging Israel on. The UN is already poised to react against Israel, if they cross a lot more lines they’d risk expulsion (along with us). Who knows, but it’s not just about Palestinians, the US has abused its influence across the globe and setting the record straight about what the electorate will tolerate would undoubtedly help more countries down the line, if Biden accepts the critique.
Yours is probably the correct take, or near enough. The U.S., on a sociocultural level, tends to take sides. It’s nurtured into us. Sports is arguably the biggest reason, though throw in the news, social commentary, and a bit of high divorce rates, amongst other reasons, and you’ll have yourself a cake split down some middle. While far more complicated than this simple explanation, the reality is we are divided. This division makes it really difficult to want to agree with someone who doesn’t take your exact stance. Whatever reason justifies such firm footing on shaky ground is further falsely reinforced by those who exist just to rabble-rouse, 2024 Digital Digger Edition; “Our Words Harm”.
It’s become difficult to look at comments stuck in the social node of Biden=Bad or Bust in good faith, because they often don’t discuss and instead tend to yell.
Which really is sad, because we do need to come together.
I’m not holding hands with a Nazi, and I’m not voting for someone who is doing a genocide. If that makes me a divisive asshole, so be it.
No idea what it makes you. We’ll see soon enough. I just hope that if Trump does win people like you don’t up and go silent.
Either way actually. Whatever our differences, we can all agree that life could be much better.
Cheers to that. I marched in November 2016 and I’ll march in November 2024. I wish I didn’t have to march in May 2024, but it is what it is.
I’ve been on the receiving end of names such as “Genocide Lover”
Tell the rest of that story.
So first a whole bunch of people got up and said, I’m never voting for Biden because he ruined the economy and fucked up on climate change and made marijuana illegal again and did family separation and caused Covid and also personally did a genocide and is super happy about the war in Gaza because it’s exactly what he wanted
For the record: this is a strawman. You know that saying about Republicans always accusing others of the things they’re guilty of themselves? I would suggest not following the Republican playbook.
I mean, I exaggerated for humor, but people did absolutely say:
- Biden ruined the economy
- Biden fucked up on climate change
- Biden betrayed us by not decriminalizing marijuana after he said he would
- “Separating families at the border” got worse under Biden
- Trump’s Covid policy was amenable to people steering him the right way whereas Biden cancelled a bunch of the safety things we needed
- Biden is the one doing the genocide
Aside from the genocide, the last few were so laughable that it’s easy to conclude I just made them up as a pure strawman, but yes I absolutely had people tell me the un-exaggerated version of them.
Would it be better if I spelled out exactly what were the literal things people told to me instead? Yeah maybe I shouldn’t “joke” in this way if I’m gonna be saying other people are using a strawman.
He’s not separating families at the border, but he is keeping children in open air detention camps without sanitation or adequate food and water.
Migrants who cross the border illegally wait under open skies or sometimes in tents or structures made of tree branches while short on food and water. When the number of migrants was particularly high last year, they waited for several days for Border Patrol agents to arrest and process them.
Gee said there was “significant evidence” that Customs and Border Protection, of which Border Patrol is a part, has physical control over minors at the outdoor locations. For example, CBP vehicles occasionally transport or drop off migrants to the camps and for a time, gave out wristbands to organize migrants by when they had arrived.
“This is a tremendous victory for children at open air detention sites, but it remains a tragedy that a court had to direct the government to do what basic human decency and the law clearly require,” Neha Desai, senior director of immigration at the National Center for Youth Law, said in a statement. “We expect CBP to comply with the court’s order swiftly, and we remain committed to holding CBP accountable for meeting the most rudimentary needs of children in their legal custody, including food, shelter, and basic medical care.”
There’s a massive number of people coming in, a big increase, and the Republicans have been blocking increases in funding for the US law enforcement agencies that deal with them (which, the left gives him grief for because increasing funding for ICE means he’s a monster), and increases in the number of judges so there’s not this huge backlog. So yes, there’s a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
I.e. migrants are being left in limbo in inhumane conditions for long lengths of time. However, Biden’s attempted several times to solve that and been specifically prevented. It’s hard for me to see that as something which he is deliberately doing on purpose.
I addressed the thing that you said, which was perfectly fair although I feel there’s a reasonable reason for that situation which isn’t Biden’s fault. The thing the other person said to me wasn’t that, though; it was specifically that Biden had made family separation worse, which is absurd.
So yes, there’s a huge number of people and not enough US resources to properly care for them.
And yet I’m sure they’ll find the money to get it done now that a judge has ordered them to. It’s almost like Biden is actually hostile to asylum seekers.
WASHINGTON — Senate Democrats plan to force a vote Thursday on the bipartisan border security package that Republicans blocked this year, an attempt to flip the script on immigration politics, a major vulnerability for President Joe Biden.
The legislation, negotiated by Republican and Democratic senators, is designed to reduce border crossings, raise the bar for migrants to qualify for asylum and quickly turn away those who fail to meet it. It empowers the president to shut down the border if certain triggers are met. If it becomes law, it would be the most sweeping set of migration restrictions in decades. Biden has endorsed the bill.
Now do asylum policy according to Congress and the Republican Supreme Court…
I don’t get it man.
The Republicans are calling for more and more cruelty (e.g. raising the bar for aslyum). Biden is trying to alleviate the exact conditions you’re describing, in addition to compromising with them some of the cruelty you’re asking for, and you’re giving him shit for it.
What in your world should he do? Magic a bill into existence that will fix the conditions you’re talking about, without getting it through congress or needing the support of the Republicans?
Why are you saying that weakening his position against the Republicans until things get better is the way for you to solve that problem? Are you happy with the babies waiting outside in the hot sun for months and months until your plan bears fruit, should he withdraw the current bill and go back to the drawing board and them just wait outside until your plan comes through?
Congress writes the statutes on how people are detained.
Show me the statute stating that asylum seekers need to be kept in open air detention with inadequate food, water, and hygiene.
Sure, and other people also had very different criticisms of him than your list that aren’t as easy to dismiss. The strawman is you cherry-picking these to argue against in order to demonstrate some blanket point about people who don’t want to vote for Biden, when only one of these is the actual point of the conversation (and not in the hyperbolized way you presented it).
So yeah, I would 100% suggest not committing a logical fallacy while you’re criticizing others for committing that logical fallacy.
Every additional issue Biden ignores he looses a portion of his base’s enthusiasm. Sure, some of these people would never vote for Biden for a bunch of reasons, but everyone has a limit to what they’re willing to concede on, and I have to say that supporting a genocidal project is a pretty big one.
It would be irresponsible if we weren’t sounding the alarms that he’s strayed too far away from his winning coalition. That’s not me being principled (even though it is), that’s me being pragmatic.
Everyone else who’s rallying a couple hundred users on lemmy to ignore that issue is covering their eyes to the oncoming train.
I make the same comment in all these threads, but you don’t have to vote for Biden. I’m planning on voting psl this November and you can too.
Forgive me, but the only psl I know is Pumpkin Spice Latte. Care to explain?
Party for socialism and liberation. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz this go round.
As someone who voted 3rd party in 2016, I very much regret it. It was a wasted vote and helped Trump get in office. The very same thing can happen again. Don’t get me wrong, I hate that Biden is the candidate. I hated it in 2020 as well. The Democratic party is a joke when it comes to putting up candidates. Until we aren’t a two party system, we have to vote for the lesser of two evils with a plausible chance of winning. If not and Trump wins again, we will only move backwards again. It felt like we took two steps backwards and a half step forward.
How we can generate change is by starting at the local level. Ranked choice voting has already begun at many local level elections. We need to campaign for this and for candidates that can make that happen.
I voted Democrat in 2020 and I very much regret it.
May I ask why? Is it for a single reason or multiple?
Because he turned out to be a genocidal ghoul
Do not fall for the idea that changing to some other method of voting will fix anything.
Plenty of European nations have all manner of goofy voting systems and parliamentary governments and they’re all still getting fascist parties and coalitions.
Even if we thanos-snapped ourselves into star or ranked choice or some other cheese eating surrender monkey voting style we’d still actually have to be not okay with our government sending 2000lb guided bombs to be dropped on hospitals.
That starts with not voting for Biden because a vote can only ever be seen as a show of support. There is no way to mark the little bubble that says “I’m only doing this to keep trump out of office” or the one labeled “wish it was anyone else”.
You can only show support with a vote and I urge you not to show support for Biden.
You should feel proud of your third party vote in 2016, I sure do. You can say a lot of bad things about trump, but he never laughed about having a nations leader sodomized to death with a knife on daytime tv.
I agree that there’s likely no ‘perfect’ system of government. Mostly because power corrupts most. But clearly the two party system is extremely dangerous so I still want a change to another method. Yes, ranked choice voting isn’t perfect but not trying to change/improve is giving up.
I do want to ask, it seems like you are fine with another Trump term. Do you not think fascism growth would be greater under his presidency? Do you think he won’t support the Israel government or worse, provide even more to them?
Our system of government forms a feedback loop with our social system. We can certainly change how we vote but without changing both the government and social system, modifications to our election process only change the interlink between the two. It’s clear from other extant nations dealing with fascist movements that a different interlink doesn’t fundamentally alter how both the government and social systems respond to material conditions.
It’s not giving up to recognize that a new transmission won’t fix a blown engine and stripped differential.
We might need a new transmission too, but it ain’t gettin us to pismo beach unless the rest is straightened out.
I’m not “fine” with another trump term, and I’m not “fine” with Bidens term or another one.
We are getting fascism. We have, right this very moment, got fascism.
We cannot fight fascism with gentler fascism or inclusive fascism or fascism with a welfare state, we can fight it with socialism, anarchism or communism.
To step away from the polemic for a little bit it’s interesting that you said we shouldn’t vote third party but instead should try to change the voting system. Here I am just asking people to do the easiest thing ever, mark a different box on a piece of paper, and the response is “no, before you do that simple, easy to accomplish thing you have to fundamentally alter how we choose officials!”
I don’t bring it up to make fun of you, because several other people have said that to me, but to ask what motivates that? I mean, do you think the only acceptable outcome for a political party is victory?
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries. We can try again during the next primary, but if we fuck around during the general, we’re going to find out how much worse a second Trump term will be.
Your vote for Biden is only a vote for Biden. It will never be a vote against trump. It will only ever signify support for Biden assistance and denial of a genocide.
The democrats don’t have a crystal ball, they can’t tell that you wish they would run someone else or that you feel forced to vote for their candidate despite his monstrous platform. They will only see support. They will only see what they can get away with.
The time to vote against Biden was back in the primaries.
Yeah. I remember centrists screaming that uncommitted votes in the primary were votes for Trump. The only thing that pleases a centrist is silence from critics.
POASIWID
I’m horrified by what’s going on in Gaza. It’s an atrocity that deserves maximum attention and intervention above pretty much any issue.
Biden is absolutely shitting the bed on this. But Trump isn’t gonna clean the sheets.
It’s not that genocide is a tertiary issue. It’s that both candidates will be complicit in the genocide, so it literally isn’t a factor when looking at the candidates.
If Biden doesn’t change course on this, he will lose.
In this comment: a bullshit-ass straw man
Its very simple.
If you think it’s bad now, for you, for Palestinians, for whoever, wait until Trump is in power. He’ll commit actual genocide, as in wipe them all out, as he claimed anyways, he’ll install himself as a dictator, as he claimed, and I’m not even starting with that Republican 2025 document that would like to make America into Gilead.
So shit up, swallow your pride, vote Biden. as soon as Biden is elected, protest all you want, block roads, whatever, but for now, vote Biden if you want the world to at least survive the next four years semi recognizably.
That is how they teach negotiation in school
An actual genocide is happening right now. If biden doesn’t feel pressured to stop the genocide at the risk of losing votes in an election year, what makes you think he’ll stop it when he’s not at any risk of losing the election?
I don’t think he’ll stop. But from a practical standpoint you’re voting between the status quo level of genocide, and an even GREATER level of genocide. Voting for MORE genocide is objectively worse.
I don’t think he’ll stop.
If anything, he’ll interpret a victory as a mandate.
Perhaps. But Trump will ALSO interpret victory as a mandate, as he’s ALREADY interpreted LOSS as a mandate, and so we’re clear on his stance…
"In statements since the war began, Trump has promised, if elected, to cut off all US aid to Palestinians and urged other nations to follow suit if he returns to the Oval Office.
The former president also pledged to bar refugees from Gaza under an expansion of his first-term travel ban on Muslim-majority countries; expel immigrants who sympathize with Hamas; revoke the visas of foreign students deemed “anti-American” or “antisemitic”; and impose “strong ideological screening” to keep out foreign nationals who “want to abolish Israel”."
Perhaps. But Trump will ALSO interpret victory as a mandate,
I’m not worried that my vote will be interpreted by Trump as a mandate to support genocide, because I’m not voting for Trump.
Completely understood. Not implying you would. Just trying to impress as a matter of general statement how important it is that he NOT win. He will interpret victory as a mandate. I know everyone is sick of hearing it, but it is so important that it bears repeating as much as the discourse can support, because the voices claiming a noble ideological victory from abstention have no such qualms about flooding the conversation wherever they can.
what makes you think he’ll stop it
Odds are better for Biden. Slim is better than none.
Get it clear: this isn’t a vote about Biden. It’s a vote about America and it’s a clean binary choice between two bad options; one worse than the other. If you don’t choose the far-less-worse imperfect option, you need to be okay with the worse imperfect option if it should emerge victorious.
The odds aren’t slim for biden stopping this, it’s simply zero. Democrats rely on republicans being worse so that they have an excuse to do nothing. If you have two parties, one that preserves the status quo and the other that makes things worse, then things are only going to get worse because republicans are eventually going to win in our intentionally broken system.
You’re vastly overestimating the power the US has. We can’t even get our allies to stop funding Russia and selling them advanced technology.
The only people capable of stopping what is happening in Gaza are Netanyahu and the Israeli people.
Several genocides are going on right now, and have been for decades, almost like it’s got nothing to do with who’s in charge in the US or something.
We send billions to israel every year and have only greatly ramped up the support as israel has ramped up the genocide. If the US simply stopped that support, it would go a long way. Following your logic, people get murdered all the time, so we shouldn’t do anything about murder, even if we’re the ones directly enabling the murderers.
Not really, the two things are not connected the way you think they are.
If anything, Israel cares about western approval enough to at least put up the appearance of propriety, if that approval were to be lost either way I have no doubt they’d just drop all pretense and purge the contested areas at once.
It’s abundantly clear that we the west are the last people involved in this who care about Palestinian survival (other than Palestinians obviously), their neighbours care only insofar as it keeps Israel busy and weakened internally, but they do nothing to help them (and with reason, since the attempted coup in Jordan), I don’t want to find out what happens when we step aside, do you?
I’m sure israel wants to completely ethnically cleanse Palestine regardless of funding, that has been the mission since Palestine was selected as the target for the zionist movement. However, it’s our funding and investments that enables them. Do you honestly think israel is self-sufficient? If they were, then why do we send them billions of dollars every year? That’s just the tip of the support iceberg, by the way. We also incentivize companies to invest in israel, like Intel and other tech companies.
We also spend a lot of resources destroying and pacifying countries in the region to ensure israel’s continued existence. It’s no coincidence that countries like Iraq, Syria, Libya, etc have been invaded and/or regime changed. The top recipient of US foreign aid is israel by far, but Egypt is near the top of the list and it’s to keep them pacified since they’re a major power in the region and had opposed israel in the past.
The US doesn’t care about Palestine’s existence at all and is only keeping up appearances as well. Just look at the two-state solution that is always proposed but never followed through. Look at all the negotiations that have taken place where the US obviously sides with israel on unreasonable demands and then blames Palestine for not accepting “deals” that no one would accept.
You stupid Americans really think you and especially your president can command any foreign government to do what you want, right?
How are you a leftist with that kind of imperialist worldview?
You’re probably a groiper troll trying to badmouth liberals anyway
This would be a funny bit if you weren’t being sincere.
Israel is the west’s vehicle for imperialism in the middle east. It was created by the British through imperialist action and the US has been one of the biggest supporters since. So yes, the US has a huge say in what Israel can do because Israel owes its entire existence to the US and the west at large. If Israel feels so mighty and independent, then they’re free to return the hundreds of billions in aid that we’ve given them and to stop receiving the billions we send them every single year and to not have us fight wars for them.
Israel is practically an American vassal state (or the other way lmfao all things considered) so the USA has a very material power in stopping it
Can we stick to the facts please?
Their (Israel) entire army would dissipate into thin air if the US stopped funding them. If the US wanted to, it could end the whole fiasco with a phone call.
An actual genocide is happening right now.
Yeah, but Biden’s not the one committing it. Biden is an incidental element of a much larger apparatus and if that apparatus is primarily meant to commit this particular genocide, he’s not a particularly effective one.
what makes you think he’ll stop it when he’s not at any risk of losing the election?
Literally nothing. No one is arguing that borderline unconditional support will make Biden change his mind. Why would you even ask? On the other hand, if making Biden think he’s gonna lose won’t sufficiently motivate him, then threatening to not vote is just an ineffective strategy. Your premise undermines the conclusion you seem to be hinting at.
deleted by creator
Biden is trying to leverage concessions and aid for Palestinians
Hey, did you know gullible is written on the ceiling?
This is about preserving a system that’s at least recoverable in it’s current state. If you don’t vote for Biden your voting for an authoritarian regime and it’s not even an exaggeration. Trump just had a promo video referencing a new Reich in America.
This is the easiest decision American voters have ever had. Go look up what happened when Trump was in power for 4 years and what has happened with Biden for 4 years. We have data on how they both acted in power. That’s incredibly rare. Compare them objectively.
Moral high ground about Israel, while correct, is a hill compared to the mountain of evidence that shows what has happened and will continue to happen under trump if he returns to power. State secrets for sale, supreme Court seats, threats to never relinquish power, codified laws hunting down women who seek abortions, laws against trans and gays, j6 insurrection…you’re actively supporting that by not standing against trump.
Abstaining from voting for Biden this fall is a vote for Trump in a first past the post system. You will be complicit. You will literally be responsible for violence against minorities having played an active part in helping trump return to power. It’s hypocritical to allow that while condemning Biden on Israel.
I get it, I promise. I didn’t vote for Hillary or Trump in 2016 and I see now what that ended up doing to our country. I regret it. I won’t do it again.
It’s impossible to reconcile your disgust for Israeli support from America with the violence you will permit to minorities in America if you don’t vote for Biden. You’re not wrong for hating it, but you must realize what you’re going to do to people with a no vote or a throwaway vote.
Democrats preserve the status quo while republicans push things further to the right. Since our system guarantees that both parties will win at different times, the trajectory is always to the right. I’m voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single election, but it will ultimately not make a meaningful difference. Democrats are using minorities as a shield for their own failings and inaction. If you don’t vote for democrats then they claim it’s your fault for whatever situation minorities find themselves in, but democrats do the bare minimum they can for minorities when they do get voted in. You’re providing a prime example when you use minorities in the US as an excuse to change the subject from genocide in Palestine.
“Identity politics” is a loaded term, but democrats will absolutely play different disadvantaged groups against one another to stop progress. They did it in 2016 when Bernie was talking about the need to help poor people and democrats came out with “but what about poor black people?!” even though democrats don’t do shit for poor black people either and as if poor black people aren’t included in the group of poor people.
I’m voting for democrats down the entire ballot like I do every single election, but it will ultimately not make a meaningful difference.
The older I get the more I realize that the only way to change anything is to be a massive, endlessly annoying prick. Sure, vote or whatever, but if you don’t like the options provided I think the least (literally the least) one can do is to - and this will sound silly - relentlessly meme on centrists to agitate them to do something.
even the ancient romans understood that a solid anonymous dunk posted on a statue can sometimes be the most agitative kind of messaging.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease, as the saying goes. My only hope as far as voting goes is that democrats get a majority so large that they can’t just conveniently flip two senators to continue to do nothing. I feel like democrats purposefully eek out the smallest victories they can so they can pretend to be powerless. It’s either that or they’re ridiculously incompetent, neither inspire confidence. They’re just too good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Regardless, their excuses and lack of results will be even more flagrant if they’re given a huge majority.
I’m literally pointing out your hypocrisy. I’d rather noone one be suffering from a fanatical authoritarian figure be that netenyahu or Trump, but it isn’t a super secret centrist agenda to point out that you will be furthering the suffering of people domestically to make yourself feel good about protesting something that will happen under trump or Biden regardless.
Soapboxing about Democrats doing nothing is demonstrably false, the population has moved farther left quicker than the government, obviously. government is slow. But politics has always trended more progressive than it was in the past. The populace has to drag it kicking and screaming, but it does happen.
I’m probably further left than you, I’m further left than most people. Socialism, Karl Marx, anti capitalism, and French razor blades type stuff.
It doesn’t make me centrist to protect lgbtq folks and women at home with my vote. The fact that you’re salty that I’m pointing that fact out and you feel for some reason that that isn’t a meaningful difference is a you problem. I’m not here making excuses for the status quo to continue, it’s just the facts that we need to do that for now during this election to help the most people possible and your ignoring that.
I can vote for Biden and still criticize him and socially be part of a collective voice that is screaming for change. Those two things aren’t mutually exclusive. Your saying minorities have been a pawn for centrists to use, but your ideology is suggesting that it would be better to ignore them and allow violence against them to continue and ramp up under trump. All because other people are suffering, who, tragically, will continue to suffer regardless of the president. That’s insane and morally dispicable.
At least your still voting for Biden even if you don’t believe anything I’m explaining so thank fuck for that
Again, irrelevant.
Biden isn’t doing much (not enough anyway) to stop this but AGAIN… There is bad and there is MUCH MUCH FORKING WORSE.
What part of trump do you not understand? Do you want Palestinians eradicated from the world or what? I don’t get you people. You want things better for Palestinians, awesome! Me too. Now, how do we get there? “Let’s make sure trump gets in office!!!” WTF?
What part of biden can do something about this do you not understand? I’m already doing my part by voting for biden. Now what is biden going to do about genocide? Remember genocide, the thing that’s supposed to be unthinkable? Yet here you are defending biden fully supporting it.
If you vote biden, great. Anything better than Trump, at this point.
Having said that… I think biden would like to do more but can’t. Why? Politics. Large Jewish population that may not vote for him if he pushes back against Israel and if he loses the vote, again, Trump will be in power and believe you me, Palestinians will wish you voted Biden. There may be a swath of other reasons, but from what I’ve seen from the guy, I think he’d like to do more but right now can’t.
That is my personal feelings on him, he may just as well like what’s going on, we don’t know for sure.
What I do know for sure is that Palestinians will be wiped out of Trump gets into power, he’ll give the Israeli government a carte blanch to go full murder rape genocide on the Palestinians.
Because the ballot box is not the only means of civic duty. Contine protests, ramp up activisim, engage in our society more than just voting once every 4 years.
The democrats will ignore all those too.
The fact that all anybody can come up with is “if you don’t like genocide, you better vote for genocide or else genocide” is proof that
A -democrats are also right wing warmongering fascists, just waving a pride flag
B- America is already lost, there’s no pulling it back, and it’s just a waiting room for the fall of the empire
That’s all you can come up with for your strawman.
Plenty of people find accusations of genocide by Israel to be misinformed.
These people are genocide deniers.
Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this site’s political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this year… Maybe calling them “dipshits” isn’t an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shit… Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters you’re trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasn’t even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that haven’t even cast a ballot for Biden. And we’re already absolutely inundated with “You have to vote for him or you’re a traitor to your nation!” hyperbole.
You’d think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become President… six months early?
There’s simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasn’t been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didn’t unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages aren’t high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head I’d rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldn’t need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but here’s a highlight reel:
- Enthusiastically support Israel’s “invasion” of Gaza
- Waste billions on a useless border wall
- Deploy the military domestically to “fight crime”, “coincidentally” in blue states
- Slash federal education spending and let states handle their own education
- Repeal background checks, reopen the gun show loophole, roll back federal laws against gun trafficking, and make it easier for kids under 21 to get guns
- Undo Title IX trans rights
And he won’t stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
- For the medium/far future: push for electoral reform like IRV/ranked choice voting at the local/state level (to get people used to it), endorse third-party candidates, run for local office, donate time/money to causes that matter to you.
- For the near term, to allow the first bullet point to take root and thrive: Don’t let Trump get elected, which means, unfortunately, voting for Biden.
Democrats can’t win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is ‘Biden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for him’
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say they’d do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. There’s no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
I’m a progressive, volunteered for Bernie’s campaigns. I don’t remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you don’t have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where “not voting for the least bad option” equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that that’s the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I haven’t heard is what’s the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Let’s say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing that’s supposed to happen? What’s the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, that’s a worse situation)
If you’d like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasn’t lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers aren’t real and pray that this doesn’t sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. That’s what I’d do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I can’t campaign on “yea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but he’s not irredeemable” to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think it’s far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate that’s complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Biden’s support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt he’s browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I don’t really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. I’m concerned that Biden’s support for Israel will make him lose too. I don’t believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling “plutocracy in democracy clothing” means we won’t be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
- Biden retracting his support for Israel, no.
- Some people on lemmy getting disenchanted and sitting home, maybe.
- The horse race obsessed media running endless stories about Biden losing the left and the youth vote, which while true, act as a flywheel suppressing more voters, absolutely
And I just can’t figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isn’t doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Biden’s unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
If they’re wasn’t blame to be directed at democrats we wouldn’t be directing it at them
To democrats in government, pull your heads out of your asses And stop supporting the genocide
I couldn’t make you people any more apathetic if I tried, Jesus
The simplest way to “stop Trump” is for Biden to stop supporting Israel’s genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israel’s genocide and instead it’s everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump won’t get stopped even while Biden doesn’t shift an inch on his position.
It’s quite the “curious” take that Biden shouldn’t have to stop supporting genocide even to “stop Trump” and instead it’s everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to “stop Trump”.
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of “the boss is always right and you have to support the boss or else” of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldn’t support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And “stopping trump” is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you don’t like the genocide supporters and you shouldn’t be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That you’re fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly haven’t understand my points or haven’t actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to “Stop Trump” and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, that’s what’s very unfair - it’s saying that “my will is more important than the will of millions”.
That’s the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He can’t even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this he’s actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them don’t care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they don’t want him as President.
That’s not Democracy, it’s Petty Dictatorship and it’s certainly not “very unfair” to point out when elected representatives are acting like they’re dictators.
It’s also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. We’ll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here – for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c – that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprising… Then I’m sorry to tell you that you’re a terrorist.
People here aren’t arguing for you to like Biden; most of us don’t either. We’re asking for you to live in reality.
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. It’s not democracy at all. It’s a sham like usual.
I deleted this comment because I realized I don’t actually wanna take part in an extremely tribal ethno-religious debate. I’ll just say the following things everyone should agree on:
- Any government anywhere that holds one ethnicity or religion above another is fundamentally wrong and oppressive
- Everyone who minds their own business has a right to be safe from violence
- Maximizing good things and minimizing bad things is good, obviously. But this also applies to voting.
deleted by creator
minding your buisness and not preventing fascist dictators has as a consequence that violence will be enacted wether you want it or not silence is violence not because of some ideals but because of the way reality is
Or specifically in this case and paraphrasing somebody else adaptation on this and the original author’s whole point:
“First they came for Palestinians but because I was not a Palestinian I did nothing”
Tik Tok or whatever needs to start teaching the children the actual history of the US so they realize we don’t get to vote for not killing children in this country. Fewer children, sure. And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
But if you don’t want to vote for child killing you’re gonna have to move because no matter who you vote for it’s going to happen in your name.
And we might even pretend to be sad about it.
we are certainly very good at that.
Once an appropriate amount of time has passed. Honestly, Biden’s innovation is that he isn’t waiting to be sad about it. He’s very sad about the genocide as he tells the ICC off for investigating the genocide, as he ships more weapons. Hell, someone should tell him to erect a Gaza memorial next to the Veitnam War Memorial, to show just how much it pains him to kill all these brown people.
It’s almost as if it’s a congressional decision and not entirely his own.
Crazy, right?
You must not be paying attention. Biden has been exploiting loopholes to bypass Congress to send weapons to Israel since Oct. 7:
The United States has quietly approved and delivered more than 100 separate foreign military sales to Israel since the Gaza war began Oct. 7, amounting to thousands of precision-guided munitions, small-diameter bombs, bunker busters, small arms and other lethal aid, U.S. officials told members of Congress in a recent classified briefing.
Only two approved foreign military sales to Israel have been made public since the start of conflict: $106 million worth of tank ammunition and $147.5 million of components needed to make 155 mm shells. Those sales invited public scrutiny because the Biden administration bypassed Congress to approve the packages by invoking an emergency authority.
But in the case of the 100 other transactions, known in government-speak as Foreign Military Sales or FMS, the weapons transfers were processed without any public debate because each fell under a specific dollar amount that requires the executive branch to individually notify Congress,** **according to U.S. officials and lawmakers who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive military matter.
These one issue people block that process from their minds, it doesn’t matter to them.
Or they’re not even American anyways and have no idea.
I’ve spoken to MANY that aren’t in America.
I gather you haven’t been paying attention either: https://lemmy.today/comment/8531642
Oh look a one issue crusader that actively endorses Trump over Biden. Gtfottahere.
Says the 26-day-old account Blue Maga troll. Never have I endorsed Trump. I’m voting third party.
Such an depth of emotion in that man, you really have to respect it
You guys are playing with fire
That fucker is making it a challenge I’ll give him that. Just shut up about it, that’s all he has to do. Shutting up about genocide is how we’ve ignore genocides across the world for the last 50 years. It works. Most people don’t even know Jimmy Carter helped carry out a genocide. Jimmy fucking Carter. Just don’t talk about and Americans will immediately forget. So Biden please shut the fuck up. Join the fraternity of every president of the last well all of our history in committing genocide that isn’t well-publicized.
It would be far preferable for him to stop supporting the genocide, I think.
Duh
Jimmy Carter was able to quietly support genocide because there were only 3 TV news stations at the time. None of them would mention Cambodia, you had to read the 14th page of the NYT to actually be informed.
This level of broad-based ignorance is no longer possible in the internet era.
And beside that, “just shut up and keep genociding” is a shocking and evil stance to take. Ignoring morality and hiding behind realpolitik is how we get figures like Kissinger, Netanyahu, and Hitler.
The only shocking thing here is how completely you missed the tone of a very obviously tongue and cheek comment. You might be spending too much time on this site. Maybe go touch grass for a while buddy.
I come in contact with genocide denial both when touching grass and when terminally online.
If you want to do genocide denial but sarcastically, you need to make it more obvious to separate yourself from the large segment of the population that does it without sarcasm.
Watch Biden supporters lash out at communists and muslims if Biden fails to get reelected, rather than looking at the horrendous position the Democrats have taken.
Removed by mod
How about buckshot or a rubber band
Who the hell is defending genocide?
Threatening the international criminal court because they are investigating a genocide is defending genocide
That’s because of the good old boys club making sure the ICC doesn’t start grabbing “western” leaders. Not because of genocide. Make no mistake that they place themselves above any one country’s actions.
Oh? So its dependent geographical location when it’s ok to hold leaders accountable to the genocide and war crimes they cause. Got ya. Putin being a war criminal, Cheers for the ICC. But now a US ‘ally’ is getting called out for credible accounts of warcrimes and provable mens rea for genocide? Well time to threaten the ICC with crushing sanctions from the fore most super power.
Maybe they are not interested in all western leaders, just the ones who war crime? Or defend war crime?
No, it’s dependent on being a powerful and wealthy nation that uses their flex to ensure they can continue to get away with what why want. If your part of that club you began invade all kids of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and whoever else and nobody can actually do anything about it. However, if you’re the leader of some tiny country on the losing end of doing dirty deeds, you get a bomb in your lap or hauled off to some prison, like Noriega.
This isn’t rocket science, “western” refers to a geopolitical standing, and even if Russia doesn’t fit the “western” bill, they nonetheless fall under the “too powerful to fuck with” category.
Joe Biden
He refuses to call it a genocide. He condemns some of the Israeli actions, as inadequate as that is.
Gaslight much?
Strawman vs gaslighting, who will win?
That’s a meaningless comment.
What “democrats”? Even Biden is softballing the issue even if he isn’t outright condemning it (as he should, the bastard should call it genocide). I’ve never seen any Dems here or on Reddit saying it isn’t a genocide. If you’re referring to the few at the top that refuse to call a spade a spade, yeah…that’s plural “democrats”, but overall nobody is defending “genocide”, but some fools are mealy-mouthing the ridiculous overreaction by Israel.
odnetoreooseeoroorreo
^^^ meaningless comment
Biden apparently.
The strawman.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
It’s a good thing that most of the people that say they aren’t voting aren’t of voting age to begin with.
Or, not inside the US
I’m voting for Stein or West, but it’s true that I’m three kids in a trench coat. I didn’t realize it was so obvious.
Thank God, because otherwise it would have been stupid to ignore them
@[email protected] cough cough
