Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this siteās political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this yearā¦ Maybe calling them ādipshitsā isnāt an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shitā¦ Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters youāre trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasnāt even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that havenāt even cast a ballot for Biden. And weāre already absolutely inundated with āYou have to vote for him or youāre a traitor to your nation!ā hyperbole.
Youād think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become Presidentā¦ six months early?
Thereās simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasnāt been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didnāt unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages arenāt high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head Iād rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldnāt need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but hereās a highlight reel:
Enthusiastically support Israelās āinvasionā of Gaza
Waste billions on a useless border wall
Deploy the military domestically to āfight crimeā, ācoincidentallyā in blue states
Slash federal education spending and let states handle their own education
Repeal background checks, reopen the gun show loophole, roll back federal laws against gun trafficking, and make it easier for kids under 21 to get guns
Undo Title IX trans rights
And he wonāt stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
For the medium/far future: push for electoral reform like IRV/ranked choice voting at the local/state level (to get people used to it), endorse third-party candidates, run for local office, donate time/money to causes that matter to you.
For the near term, to allow the first bullet point to take root and thrive: Donāt let Trump get elected, which means, unfortunately, voting for Biden.
Democrats canāt win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is āBiden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for himā
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say theyād do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. Thereās no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
Iām a progressive, volunteered for Bernieās campaigns. I donāt remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you donāt have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where ānot voting for the least bad optionā equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that thatās the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I havenāt heard is whatās the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Letās say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing thatās supposed to happen? Whatās the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, thatās a worse situation)
If youād like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasnāt lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers arenāt real and pray that this doesnāt sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. Thatās what Iād do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I canāt campaign on āyea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but heās not irredeemableā to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think itās far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate thatās complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Bidenās support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt heās browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I donāt really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. Iām concerned that Bidenās support for Israel will make him lose too. I donāt believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling āplutocracy in democracy clothingā means we wonāt be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
Biden retracting his support for Israel, no.
Some people on lemmy getting disenchanted and sitting home, maybe.
The horse race obsessed media running endless stories about Biden losing the left and the youth vote, which while true, act as a flywheel suppressing more voters, absolutely
And I just canāt figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isnāt doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Bidenās unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
If I believe that Biden will lose because of a position heās taken himself, and i believe that nothing I say could sway the people we need to vote in November even if I could make it convincing, what else is there to do but anything to get Biden to reverse course?
The sad thing here is that Biden is able to move on things. He was essentially republican before the 2020 primary! Bernie and Warren had a lot to do with that. You campaigned for Bernie, you already know that!
I think if progressives are loud enough, the people in Bidenās circle can break through to him. Iām more optimistic than you are.
We lost the 2016 election because moderates were overconfident and condescending to their constituents; if nothing else I will cut them down, even a little, so they might not repeat that mistake.
The simplest way to āstop Trumpā is for Biden to stop supporting Israelās genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israelās genocide and instead itās everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump wonāt get stopped even while Biden doesnāt shift an inch on his position.
Itās quite the ācuriousā take that Biden shouldnāt have to stop supporting genocide even to āstop Trumpā and instead itās everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to āstop Trumpā.
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of āthe boss is always right and you have to support the boss or elseā of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldnāt support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And āstopping trumpā is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you donāt like the genocide supporters and you shouldnāt be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That youāre fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly havenāt understand my points or havenāt actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to āStop Trumpā and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, thatās whatās very unfair - itās saying that āmy will is more important than the will of millionsā.
Thatās the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He canāt even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this heās actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them donāt care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they donāt want him as President.
Thatās not Democracy, itās Petty Dictatorship and itās certainly not āvery unfairā to point out when elected representatives are acting like theyāre dictators.
Itās also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. Weāll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here ā for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c ā that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprisingā¦ Then Iām sorry to tell you that youāre a terrorist.
People here arenāt arguing for you to like Biden; most of us donāt either. Weāre asking for you to live in reality.
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. Itās not democracy at all. Itās a sham like usual.
Trump wants to be dictator and is talking about a third term and you dipshits still keep on with your divisive nonsense meant to push people into political apathy. Lol this siteās political discourse has been completely hijacked by bad-faith, blame Dems at all costs bullshit.
To those not acting in bad faith, you should vote Biden because at least you know he will peacefully step down when his term is up. Trump will try more J6 style violence to stay in power. Could you imagine 20 years of Trump, or if he appointed one of his kids president?
Pull your head out of your ass and vote Biden.
Sounds like Biden and the Dems should be trying pretty hard to get young people and progressives to show up this yearā¦ Maybe calling them ādipshitsā isnāt an effective tactic? In fact, I would say this is the kind of thing that turns people off from giving a shitā¦ Are you TRYING to get Trump elected? How about instead of bullying the voters youāre trying to convince to do what you want them to do, you could try putting that pressure on the Dems to start doing what it takes to get people to show up and vote
What I find amusing is that the primary season hasnāt even officially ended yet. The convention is in August. There are numerous states that havenāt even cast a ballot for Biden. And weāre already absolutely inundated with āYou have to vote for him or youāre a traitor to your nation!ā hyperbole.
Youād think people could at least save their most hysterical outcries until the general election season has officially started. But no. Everyone on Lemmy is expected to bend the knee right now, at this very instant, because otherwise Trump might become Presidentā¦ six months early?
Thereās simply no room in the political calendar for any kind of criticism of the sitting President.
Biden hasnāt been great. He dragged his feet on issues he campaigned on (e.g., student debt relief), he sounds eve older than he is, and perhaps most gallingly, he didnāt unequivocally renounce the genocide in Gaza immediately. Inflation sucks and wages arenāt high enough for most to survive, let alone thrive. I can name a dozen progressives off the top of my head Iād rather have as president.
First past the post voting and the two-party system give us little chance at the national level for meaningful fast change.
But have you seen the shit Trump has promised he will do as president? We all learned an important lesson from the first Trump presidency: take him seriously, not literally. I shouldnāt need to list the things Trump has promised to do, but hereās a highlight reel:
And he wonāt stand in the way of any of the Project2025 insanity the GOP wants to pursue.
So, on the left, you have an old man who has maybe made things a little better for some too slowly while ignoring a genocide. On the right, you have an old man who endorses that same genocide, promises to make the country an actively worse place for many, and who has empirically proven he will encourage and endorse insurrection and treason to stay in power.
The best play for the future is two-pronged:
Democrats canāt win without the progressive caucus, and even in the most conservative part of a largely leftist social media site and the best thing that people who claim to be left are saying is āBiden was a shit president and I fucking hate having to vote for himā
Does anyone here really think Biden can rely on progressives right now? Honestly, maybe everyone here would say theyād do it anyway, but who here actually thinks a majority of leftists would show up for that POS?
If Biden is steadfast on this position on Isreal he loses. Thereās no amount of street-corner-preaching about the end of days that will convince leftists to vote for Biden.
Iām a progressive, volunteered for Bernieās campaigns. I donāt remember electing you to speak for me, maybe you donāt have your finger so squarely on the pulse of every single progressive.
I plan to vote for Biden, am I excited about it, no. Is the Democratic Party going to put up anyone else, no. Would me holding back my vote matter, no.
There is no world where ānot voting for the least bad optionā equals anything other than the most bad option winning. You can be upset that thatās the word you happen to find yourself in, no one asked me if having to pick between the two jackboots of the capital class was how we should arrange things either.
One thing I havenāt heard is whatās the alternative. You have my full attention, what would you actually concretely hope to have happen. Letās say you could convince a large number of Democratic Party voters to follow your lead, what would you have them do?
Perhaps watching the Democratic Party leadership gut the chances of Sanders twice to put up boring ass garbage candidates has hardened my heart. Would you have them sit out the primary convention, great Biden still wins because of super delegates. Would you have them protest and hold back their votes in November, great trump wins. Is there some other thing thatās supposed to happen? Whatās the plan?
I am very happy for your politics, honestly I am. I wish more people were as involved as that.
Bidens approval is at 38% right now. That is the second lowest approval rating of any incumbent president in their third term in modern history, second only to carter. The lowest third year approval rating where the incumbent won reelection was Obama with 45%. Biden can afford to lose 3% of his popular vote, assuming 2020 turnout and ignoring the electoral vote(spoiler, thatās a worse situation)
If youād like to ignore reality and argue that Biden hasnāt lost any fraction of his support from this conflict, just because you personally could concede that issue, then feel free to completely ignore me. Keep reassuring everyone those numbers arenāt real and pray that this doesnāt sink him.
I personally think the only path to victory is Biden about facing in Isreal. Thatās what Iād do if I was organizing: do everything in my power to push Biden to see reason. I canāt campaign on āyea Biden is materially supporting a genocide, but heās not irredeemableā to progressives that are camping on campuses for weeks to months over it. There is nothing I could do to convince those people to vote.
Spend your time how you want but I think itās far more sensible to try and sway Biden than it is to convince an entire cohort to vote for a candidate thatās complicit in genocide.
Ok, but concretely, how do you want to do that? This meme?
I believe you, you think that Bidenās support for Israel will ensure his defeat. What do you think could get him to change his position, I highly doubt heās browsing lemmy.
I get your frustration and I read some of your other comments and I donāt really disagree with you. The thing is, the people disagreeing with you in this thread agree with the deeper concern. Iām concerned that Bidenās support for Israel will make him lose too. I donāt believe there is anything the voting public can do to change that support. I believe that support has been bought and paid for by the capitalists that want that support for whatever awful reason they have, and that our shambling āplutocracy in democracy clothingā means we wonāt be able to change that.
So I look at the line you are pushing and I think, what are the likely outcomes of this effort.
And I just canāt figure out the point. Maybe you are more optimistic than me, maybe you still believe that shouting into the social media zone could swell a grassroots rebellion, get Biden to change his stance, and secure his victory. I just have a hard time believing it.
Now if you told me you were going to start a super pac and throw 10s of millions of dollars at the campaign but only if they move on Israel, yea, that could work. Shitposting here isnāt doing anything but demoralizing pragmatic leftists that understand what a shitty fucking dumpster fire of a system we have and are also worried Bidenās unwavering support for Israel is going to fuck us all over. And I struggle to understand who that helps
If I believe that Biden will lose because of a position heās taken himself, and i believe that nothing I say could sway the people we need to vote in November even if I could make it convincing, what else is there to do but anything to get Biden to reverse course?
The sad thing here is that Biden is able to move on things. He was essentially republican before the 2020 primary! Bernie and Warren had a lot to do with that. You campaigned for Bernie, you already know that!
I think if progressives are loud enough, the people in Bidenās circle can break through to him. Iām more optimistic than you are.
We lost the 2016 election because moderates were overconfident and condescending to their constituents; if nothing else I will cut them down, even a little, so they might not repeat that mistake.
If theyāre wasnāt blame to be directed at democrats we wouldnāt be directing it at them
To democrats in government, pull your heads out of your asses And stop supporting the genocide
I couldnāt make you people any more apathetic if I tried, Jesus
The simplest way to āstop Trumpā is for Biden to stop supporting Israelās genocide and yet the Democratic Party sock puppets never ever demand that Biden stops supporting Israelās genocide and instead itās everybody else who is to blame for the increasing likelihood that Trump wonāt get stopped even while Biden doesnāt shift an inch on his position.
Itās quite the ācuriousā take that Biden shouldnāt have to stop supporting genocide even to āstop Trumpā and instead itās everybody else who has a moral obligation to vote for a shamelessly committed genocide supporter to āstop Trumpā.
The whole thing has a heavy heavy stink of āthe boss is always right and you have to support the boss or elseā of both Dictatorships and Criminal Organisations.
I think you are very unfair in how you paint the picture. Biden shouldnāt support genocide, obviously. But realistically, you have to choose between 2 genocide supporters. And āstopping trumpā is a good reason to vote for 1 genocide supporter over the other. Obviously you donāt like the genocide supporters and you shouldnāt be forced to choose one but you are living in a (practically) 2 party system and both run a genocide supporter.
That youāre fixated on convincing millions to swallow their principles and vote Biden to "Stop Trump"TM shows that you clearly havenāt understand my points or havenāt actually pondered on them rationally:
When a single man refuses to shift his position to āStop Trumpā and demands that to achive that goal millions of people shift their positions instead, thatās whatās very unfair - itās saying that āmy will is more important than the will of millionsā.
Thatās the kind of shit you expect in Absolutist Dictatorships or Monarchies with rulers who believe their rule is by Divine Mandate (hence they know better than everybody else), not from a President who supposedly represents his voters.
He canāt even claim that his position represents a majority of his votes because polls show most Democract are against the actions of Israel in Gaza - in this heās actually going against the desires of most of those who elected him in the expectation that a sufficiently large fraction of them donāt care enough on this subject to change their votes or are forced by circumstance (what you and others who think like you are pushing) to vote for him when they donāt want him as President.
Thatās not Democracy, itās Petty Dictatorship and itās certainly not āvery unfairā to point out when elected representatives are acting like theyāre dictators.
Itās also possible to look at this situation and see you as the one who is fixated. Just explain simply what you think happens in November when you refuse to participate in the (albeit shitty) democratic process. Weāll wait.
If that version of the future includes some accelerationist fantasy where things get so bad here ā for people of color, LGBTQ, lower and middle class, human rights, wage gap, regulatory capture, &c&c ā that we all have some great awakening and there is a violent uprisingā¦ Then Iām sorry to tell you that youāre a terrorist.
People here arenāt arguing for you to like Biden; most of us donāt either. Weāre asking for you to live in reality.
Funny you think people actually have any options. It is fascist vs fascist with both representing private interests over public interests. Itās not democracy at all. Itās a sham like usual.