Michael Orlitzky was not having a good day with his laundry. First CSC Serviceworks, a laundry management company, replaced all of the machines in his building with new coin-op or app-powered ones. The card reading machines had been an issue for years because the cards would stop working and the recharge machine would steal dollar bills, Orlitzky said. Now he had another enemy with its own quirks to get used to. Plus, CSC had replaced the machines about a week ahead of schedule, meaning that any cash on his or others’ laundry cards was now worthless and unusable.
Then, one of the new machines ate his quarters. The first machine was stuck on the cold setting, and he had to pay another $2 and move all of his belongings to another machine. He called CSC customer service and was on hold for an hour. CSC eventually told him to get a refund through the company’s website, which in turn insisted he install CSC’s app to proceed.
“That was the day I decided laundry would be free,” Orlitzky told 404 Media in an email.
Orlitzky then discovered multiple bypasses to CSC machines that allow him to wash his clothes for free. Since then, he’s been pretty quiet about the whole thing. Orlitzky published a brief write-up of his escapades on his personal website last year, but hasn’t shared it on social media. Some people in his building know his secret, but that’s about it. That is, until now, with Orlitzky due to speak at the DEF CON hacker conference in August about how he found infinite money cheats for CSC laundry machines. The talk is called “Laundering Money.”
CSC eventually told him to get a refund through the company’s website, which in turn insisted he install CSC’s app to proceed.
That should be illegal. I already refuse to install most apps, and I certainly won’t install one for absolute basic customer support purposes.
Lol, like, I hit a deer a few years ago. Insurance wanted me to download their app, walk around my car and take pictures, and they’d send me a check the next day. Nope. I made them send an adjustor. I’m that dedicated to not installing apps. 😆
give me an app that doesn’t touch any other part of my phone and doesn’t require signing some 300 pages of terms of service where i agree to be a human centipede… then maybe
Right?
I offered to take photos at the angles they wanted and email them to my agent, but they said it had to go through the app. I’m pretty sure the adjustor that came out used the same app, but hey, that’s his (work?) phone, not mine. Nor is it my personal info I’m signing away the rights to by clicking “agree”.
Some of those type apps build a 3d image from multiple photos, it helps get a full assessment of damage and location. There used to be a great free one on android, but the company eventually moved it to a corporate website paid service. I was able to take several rounds of photos of my salad bowl, it sent it to the cloud to be processed then you get a 3d colourized STL file back that you can bring into CAD etc. the detail of the lettuce waa amazing. This was before LIDAR on cellphones too
I’m really sceptical an insurance app can do that. And even if it does work, what’s stopping them from taking the photos from the mail (Don’t start with data protection, if they really want to they can give me a link to upload stuff; or a key to encrypt the mail)?
I agree that an app would be a better user experience. If it would refrain from sending any kind of data other than the photos. Also the photos need to be only the pictures, no EXIF or other stuff.
Also LIDAR in phones? I need to read up on this.
Edit: ah, apple only. Welp.
Oh I totally agree with protecting privacy, I was just explaining why they may want app use…because the tech is there for 3d use…not in the app persay but via cloud processing. More than likely it makes their job easy since photos go into the database with claim number and location data all filled in without them doing any labour
and doesn’t mine bitcoin in background, or isn’t so terribly written it seems it does that even if it doesn’t.
that being said, is there anything that prevents michael to have his own washing machine in his own apartment? is there some strange american rule that forbids that?
Lots of places forbide it, on the off chance it floods the unit. There’s also the thing (when renting an older unit) where water usage is included in the rent … and they don’t want you using more than they allot in their assessments.
Can’t have anyone dipping into their profits.
Dripping
well aside from it taking up a lot of space and making a lot of noise, there’s a water and gas line hookup that probably requires permission….
but they do make really small ones that can only do a couple garments at a time.
usually marketed for long haul truck drivers….Not a specific one, but a lot of leases/HOAs prohibit it.
300 pages of terms of service where i agree to be a human centipede
Oh my god, that’s exactly what it’s like. I’m borrowing that one.
you may… but you should know it’s a south park episode where that’s in the iOS terms of service….
i highly recommend you watch it
edit: sorry, Human CentiPad
Reborrow then, haha.
i mean sure, they said it first… but i made it cool
“Download our app!”
“Oh, I don’t have a smartphone.”
My current phone is about 8 years old and long overdue for replacement. If I can find a dumb phone that can also act as a hotspot, that’s probably going to be my “upgrade”.
Lol there’s rental companies here FORCING you to download their app to pay your rent. Can’t even give em cash or a check…has to be done through their app.
Hmm. They can’t evict you by app, can they?
Somebody should make this hurt for them.
Double dipping right there. Make money on rent AND selling renter’s data. Capitalism at it’s best. :/
I’m sure they charge a fee to pay your rent with a card too.
Read up on your local laws, in Australia for example it’s required that 3 basic methods of cash, cheque, and bank transfer are accepted, may be something similar for you
This is not true. I’ve seen a lot of people from my own country and others claim the same thing, but so far every time I’ve looked it up for countries it turned out to not be true.
You just have to be clear about which payment methods you accept upfront.
https://www.accc.gov.au/business/selling-products-and-services/payment-methods
Uhh tenancy laws are state governed, not federal.
You need to look at the tenancy laws for your state.
AH sorry didn’t think about that. I’m not Australian myself, honestly didn’t even know they had states :)
Got a whole buncha them. And territories.
Question though: if you didn’t even know we had states, why feel confident on correcting what rental payment methods have to legally be available in Australia?
Because I thought I’d found the correct information
also, for some reason in my mind this was still about paying for washing machines, not rent itself, so business sale law isn’t even applicable anyway
lol. Did this in my old building - the dryer was on an improperly rated circuit and the breaker would trip half the time, eating my money and leaving wet clothes.
It was one of the old, “insert coin, push metal chute in” types. Turns out you could bend a coat hanger and fish it through a hole in the back to engage the lever that the push-mechanism was supposed to engage. Showed everyone in the building.
The landlord came by the building a month later and asked why there was no money in the machines, I told him “we all started going to the laundromat down the street because it was cheaper”
This quote is hilarious.
CSC probably has a record of someone opening up the machine. “My personal stance on that is suck my diiiiiiiick, but feel free to perform your own risk assessment,” Orlitzky writes.
He was hacking the machine. But isn’t it stealing and illegal, if he short circuit the machine? I mean its like showing someone how to get free apple, by going in a shop and stealing without anyone notices it. Or by hacking into a server and ordering a meal for free. I don’t see how this is any different.
Meh, it is illegal, but personally I don’t find it immoral. Laundry machines like this are just another way for landlords to extract money from their tenants for basic needs. They have them in a captive situation and should be providing either hookups in unit or free laundry facilities.
‘Free laundry machines’ could essentially be included in the rent, provided laundry machines are used properly and intentional damage paid for. I would be okay with CCTV being employed to ensure this. An extra $10 for water usage, and everyone uses their own detergent.
But does that make sense for capitalists?
For me, rents are already pure profit for most apartment buildings, so they should just include it. I do agree there would need to be some incentive to keep them in order, but CCTV seems a little invasive. Not sure what the answer is, but I don’t think landlords would do it any how
Edit: By “For me” I meant in my opinion, not that I run apartments. Tired brain…
Profit 😕
I agree CCTV is a bit invasive…depends on the tenants! If I were a landlord with some tenants of concern, I’d have washing machines facing away from CCTV so no laundry is on camera!
Sadly it is something that will probably never happen unless legislation is passed. At leas in the US
What stops a tenant from just getting a laundry machine themselves?
This is such an American thing.
Not all American apartments have water lines for the washer or 30a outlets for the dryer, much less dedicated space for the devices.
I just plug my dryer in a normal outlet and empty a reservoir every once in a while. You can easily run a water line to a washer, that’s really a non issue.
Space might be scarce, sure. I’ve just never seen anything like what is being described in this thread except for American movies and such. Seems like such an easy thing to just not participate in.
Might be to foreign to understand the problem.
So, I guess 20a dryers aren’t super common here in the States.
Also, where I grew up apartment complexes don’t allow you to run water lines. I have heard that leases in New York City allow for more modifications, so it could be a regional thing.
Hookups for one, you need a inlet and drain for the washer and a vent for the dryer. A place to put it as well. They are big and bulky. You can get ventless combo machines, but still have the issue of water hookups and space.
If the issue is space, yeah that sucks. The hookups are a non issue though.
At least in the US, hookups are a big issue. You can hook the inlet up to a faucet sometimes, but the drain needs somewhere to go. Most dryers need a vent to the outside too, so that has to exist. I have never seen a lease that would let you add hookups either
This is one of those fascinating cultural things.
Speaking as an aussie, the washing machines here have an external hose you can literally throw the end of into a sink. Dryers can be bypassed with clotheslines / clothes horses /etc.
Dryers with vents are ancient my dude. I empty the reservoir on mine every once in a while and it’s just plugged in the wall. I literally am not even able to buy a vented dryer anymore because they’re so obsolete.
And if you’re able to hook up water to a faucet, you sure are able to hook up a drain.
Not a dude.
Dryers with vents are very much still the norm around here, and I am not even in the middle of nowhere (unless you consider Seattle the middle of nowhere). Hell, gas dryers are not uncommon.
Ventless dryers are great, but they also cost twice as much as vented dryers. Most folks I know who live in apartments don’t have that much extra cash. Meanwhile vented dryers can be found on craigslist for free very frequently
Isn’t a machine taking your money and not receiving anything from it isn’t?
That’s a different issue. The machine was obviously defective, not stealing your money. And even if someone steal from you, doesn’t change the fact you stole too. Someone doing something illegal does not give you the rights doing something illegal too.
And to a point I agree. But the way the story reads, it sounds like not much was done with the new machines after installation. We’ve all had money taken from faulty vending machines. But the stakes are slightly higher in this.
But isn’t he abusing it further than just getting his money back? If you know a weak point on a machine and use it just so you give yourself the right to abuse it, is criminal in my opinion. The first time is probably an accident and taking back what is his own. Now he has the knowledge and is going with the intention to abuse a defect.
Let’s say a shop website has an issue and one time the site was faulty and did take your money without anything in return. Then the hacker decides to break the law and get his money back, somewhat understandable, but not legally right. Still stealing. Then he realizes this loophole would be abused to make more money and nobody would notice. That’s not okay anymore.
Or do I read it wrong here? The above analogy hopefully explains how I view this situation.
Some businesses mess up… and understand that their clients need to feel like they’re being treated fairly in order to keep earning money from them, which means giving their money back, an apology, and maybe some free credit or discount coupons.
Other businesses, think they can abuse their users freely… until they end up pissing the wrong guy. Sometimes it’s a guy with a spray can, sometimes it’s a guy with a brick, and sometimes it’s someone capable of abusing them back.
You can call it illegal, it might even be morally wrong and excessive… but that’s what happens when you abuse people more than what they’re willing to take. Action and reaction, fuck around and find out, and all that.
You’re right, but at the same time.
Let’s say a website has an issue and was one time faulty. Clients lost money. Then the site owner is notified of the fault by multiple clients. The site owner uses some words to placate them and goes on with their day.
The site owner then makes some changes to the site, meaning they did have the time and money to pay a developer to update the site, but decides to keep the previous bug in, as a feature, implemented in a different way, this time better at stealing their money.
Sure, the obvious solution is to use another site (the laundromat down the road).
It’s not the same kind of stealing as stealing an apple or meal. Those remove the product, the material in its entirety.
The only devaluation washing does is in wear. And even less directly in the initial investment not being paid back upon use.
That’s concerns outside of morals of course. But stealing products isnt equateable to stealing usage.
If you have the room, you can often buy these second hand for a bargain from colleges etc. They’re built like tanks and you can wash almost anything inside them. When they do break, laundry operators try to DIY so there are videos everywhere on how to do repairs.
If you have an older coin-op washer in your building you can usually look up the model number and either buy a master key or learn the default programming code to set the price.
My apartment building also converted their coin machines to CSC Go, so I’ve been biding my time until he reveals this exploit. They’re $2.50 per wash cycle and $2.25 per dryer cycle, but if you do a big load it won’t get fully dried so you might need an extra cycle. It’s basically highway robbery even considering the water and electricity usage.
His work around is here.
https://michael.orlitzky.com/articles/csc_serviceworks_laundry_machine_coin_bypass.xhtml
Holy shit what a mensch, ty! The machines in my building are the easy kind too, no lock picking required!
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Tbf I don’t think CSC Serviceworks intentionally stole residents money. They just ignored the problems … like you’re doing rn.
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