Isn’t the staying power of Toyota vehicles their build quality and longevity, not their cheapness? Wouldn’t this be a Kia killer?
Definitely. I would be surprised if this car maker can compete toe to toe with Toyota on quality but they can slay when it comes to price.
It is now, but not when they started taking over back in the 1980’s. They started off by being cars that were cheaper. Their prices rose as they started to get a positive name for themselves.
I remember Kia coming into the US market with a somewhat similar playback, but they entered back when many other makers weren’t having poor quality/lifespan vehicles. Mid 90’s kias were cheap as snot so they got some sales. But it didn’t bode well for them as people started to notice they weren’t built to last very long, and then they started to go bankrupt (Korean financial crisis) and Hyundai bought them/bailed them out. Then they still stayed cheap as snot in the US, but gradually improved in quality. As they started getting a slightly better name for themselves they’d keep upping the price and keep upping the quality. Nowadays they aren’t much cheaper at all than a lot of manufacturers, but they also aren’t much behind in quality, either. Had they been able to enter the US market a decade sooner, they could have really had a leg up.
This says the opposite. The pre 1983 Toyotas were more reliable. Toyota made their name in the 70’s and by the 80’s started cost cutting.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/curbside-classic-1975-toyota-hilux-pickup/
Toyota and Lexus is still one of the most reliable cars out there today. I’ve got multiple Toyota cars and trucks and all have over 200k miles now. Two of my supras have over 250k and the tundra and LC both have almost 300k miles on them.
They’ve been top the reliable brand for a long time now.
Hell the Hilux is the unkillable truck for the Middle East for the last 40ish years.
Oh sure, I agree they are the most reliable. I’ve bought only Toyota or Lexus for almost 20 years now. The first car I personally bought was a Celica in 1985. (Replaced it with a Mustang after the Celica died at 8 years.) Toyota got back on track in the late 90’s and now they last 15 years.
I was only pointing out that the legendary Hilux was even more reliable in the 1970’s than the 80’s.
I had the same experience with a 1992 Toyota pickup truck. The thing was a tank, and had over 300,000 miles on it, and it was still running perfectly fine when I sold it for cheap.
Top Gear even had an episode where they tried pretty hard to destroy a mid 80s Toyota Hilux pickup truck. So, I think that they were pretty reliable in the 80s and 90s, too. At the very least the trucks were.
I still see a lot of old corollas, 4runners, and Toyota pickup trucks on the road in my area, too.
I was going to point out those two top gear episodes, but that just seemed like cheating lol
They took off because they were maintainable, reliable, and cheap. All three attributes were important for them to disrupt the space.
The Chinese automaker BYD reminds me of the famous phrase attributed to the sci-fi writer William Gibson - “The future is already here – it’s just not evenly distributed.”
Future EV cars will be cheap to own and run. Self-driving tech will lower insurance costs. You can charge them with your home solar setup if you want. They’ll last far longer with lower maintenance costs thanks to simple electric engines with few moving parts. As their construction gets more roboticized it will lower their costs further. The batteries that make up a huge chunk of their current costs are falling in price too. CATL, the world’s largest EV battery maker, is set to cut costs in half by mid 2024.
Some people still think gasoline and ICE cars have a long life ahead of them, and don’t realize the industries behind both are dead men walking.
If future means public subsidies, I’m all for it.
Chinese EVs are cheaper because they are prepaid by Chinese tax payers. That also includes taxes levied from our internet purchases for products made in China.
The secret ingredient is
crimeslave labor.Sent from my iphone.
hired by the west in droves
No, the way this usually goes is that a Western firm will order parts from a company in China, which then subcontracts to a firm that uses slave labor. This obfuscation isn’t always easy to find out about, especially if you don’t have knowledgeable people on the ground.
if you are telling me they use slaves, then its pretty naive to think they don’t know.
could have been you know, not outsourcing their shit to bangladesh or other east asian places known for their sweatshops, thats always an option.
The whole industry lives off subsidies, regardless of the type or where they are manufactured.
We in the US would never provide a corporation with state aid!!!
RHEEEEWhataboutism isn’t an answer.
But restricting competition is?
To benefit price gouging US companies?
They aren’t price gouging, they have to pay actual living wages, have higher energy costs (China uses almost entirely cheap coal) and can’t as easily use slave labor as Chinese automakers.
They aren’t price gouging
I trust u bro
GM has negative margins on EVs:
As does Ford:
This takes seconds to research.
Whatabout whataboutism about what
Is there any evidence for this?
It’s very public knowledge. China doesn’t hide it.
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/18/1225653773/china-electric-vehicles-byd-nio-geely-vw-europe
ETA: you’re right to ask for a source
Right but if they’re made in Mexico? Maybe?
Sounds like a good way to make cars more available and balancing the cost with the rich.
In a funny way this sounds like prescription drugs, cheaper for the world due to US tax payers.
…the sci-fi writer William Gibson…
For those who dont know:
If the quote sounds very cyberpunk (techno futuristic corporate dystopia) it is because William Gibson is the father of the cyberpunk genre.
And did it by boldly having no understanding of computers at the time which is why all the tech is so different from a lot of other scifi. I recently got through my decade long Asimov kick and am slowly working through Gibson now
I’m an ev fan but I don’t agree that they have more longevity than ICE cars. The current battery chemistries simply don’t allow for it.
Either battery chemistries with 20 years of guaranteed performance would have to be developed, or battery replacement and refurbishment costs will need to come down to say the cost of replacing a head gasket.
This will eventually happen, but current generation of EVs are essentially a recyclable consumable compared to their ICE counterparts.
Current cars are not scrap because of the moving parts. It is rust on the body that kills them.
Not everywhere. Where I’m from it’s definitely not because of rust that the cars die. But they last for longer maybe.
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“Today, most buyers want a good, solid reliable car that has some nice features and doesn’t cost too much,” he wrote.
Wow a car manufacturer that finally speaks some sense.
And that isn’t connected to the Internet please
…and no subscription fees.
If this makes it to American shores they will not be able to keep up with demand.
I do not think this will ever make it to the USA.
Thought i read somewhere that BYD or another manufacturer was looking to build manufacturing in Mexico to take advantage of the NAFTA agreement…. If that’s the case then it’s a question of them meeting US standards. I just remember the hilariously bad crash tests where that cars were the crumple zones.
I thought there were no standards for car manufacturing in the US (isn’t that the reason Muskrat is able to sell the trucks without crash-testinh them ?)
There are no standards for hitting pedestrians, who don’t exist in the u.s. There are plenty for car on car collisions cause that’s all that matters.
Thank you for clarifying :)
I also expect the ev batteries to be on par with any other rechargeable battery I’ve ever gotten that was chinese made. Not true to capacity, puts off more heat due to resistance already being higher than it should, and not lasting nearly as long before it goes bad.
I’d jump all over a Chinese made ev if did mostly city driving and I could get it for $15,000 and it passed safety standards. It would still be required to have the 100,000 mile or 8 year battery warranty.
For my current situation though, I still wouldn’t get the thing. I’d be out of warranty in 4 years, and no way would I want to risk keeping it past warranty. I’d probably lose like $7,000 selling it used at that point.
Brother for 15k I’ll just replace it every 3 years I don’t need it to last long
I work on my own shit and buy used vehicles. I’ll keep something for 5 years and have less than $10,000 in it, including the cost I pay for the vehicle, then still sell it for a little something when I’m done.
If the cost was in the 9k range I’d agree, as after amortizing out my current car which I paid 21k for 9 years ago is about right. I’d like to replace my truck, but I’ve had that for 15 years and I paid 10k so I suppose that is an unreasonable ask. (I need a truck about 2x/year and after looking at the fine print it turns out I cannot rent a truck - I can rent a truck shaped car, but as soon as I use it as a truck I violated the contract)
Well after 3 years you’ll still be able to sell it for some amount of money. Having spent 9k might be right on the mark. China is just turning cars into what they did with everything else. Making it disposable e-waste in waiting as soon as you get it.
If I can get easy replacement parts access and a Hayne’s manual for one of these, I’m all for it. I have both of those for my current car, along with a full toolbox for basic mechanic work.
Seeing EU and US auto maker get bent out of shape at the idea of having to compete on price… they want the state to step in to protect their captured market. clown capitalism for ya.
And before we start talking chinese state aid for their EV industry, let’s not forget that we also provide state aid to our daddies of the industry and they still punk us on price 🤡🤡🤡
I’m buying up vhs-c and hi8 camcorders and so many end user manuals have fucking schematics, parts lists, circuit diagrams, pcb layouts, timing charts, …
I’m old enough to remember owning things but never really to the extent you could build a whole new one from scratch and I don’t think those days are coming back, especially with the voltages involved in EVs
Inverters and drivers are so tightly integrated, it’s out of reach for hobbyist, you’d have to be a full on EE to build one.
Yeah, Sell this shit to random people and there will be dead bodies and lawsuits.
I love working on my car but a day will come very soon when I’ll need to love working on my bike instead.
The high voltage stuff can stay out of my reach until I’m ready, but I at least want to be able to do a TPMS relearn and brake pad/rotor maintenance without needing to plug anything into the OBDII port.
Can you tell me please, does a Hayne’s manual exist for a 2000 Mitsubishi Pajero V60?
oh no, this only ships to US+AUS. I’m in Europe, so maybe I can find some mail-forwarding service…
Right into the tube!
I want an electric Subaru Outback or Forester. Something that can be driven off road to a campground, pull a trailer if needed, and has enough range to get me from Ann Arbor to the upper peninsula with minimal charging. Seats and trunk that I can hose out after a muddy dog park excursion would be great too.
It’s going to be a little while before we get realistic options for outdoorsy uses of BEVs. If you want the range to get there AND get back (or even just to a charger) then they’re too dang heavy for offroad use. If you want to pull a camper, then the range absolutely tanks.
Airstream is trying to address this by making a $120,000 (lol) camper that has its own battery and traction motors to assist the pulling vehicle. I think its a pretty good idea but of course they’re going to lock it down in patents for 20 years and prevent anyone from offering something affordable.
Maybe we’ll get lucky an a revolutionary battery technology like those frequently talked about glass batteries will come out and just outperform the status quo by every metric.
Thank you for the informative comment, much appreciated!
Aren’t there already electric SUVs that would do all of that?
Not for the cost of a Subaru Outback, i think.
Cost didn’t seem to be mentioned as a factor.
Subaru is launching the hybrid Forester this year. Might be something to consider.
Do a search for “unexpected acceleration”, there are some serious surprises in the gas/hybrid vehicles in both drive and reverse.
Edit: This is not to imply all gas/hybrid cars are vulnerable, but it may be well-worth the time to check the vehicle brand/model/year of interest. A more specific search term is: brand model year “sudden unexpected acceleration”
Given the rough relationship between the US and China and the potential national security risks, I highly doubt this will ever make its way into the US. May make its way to Europe though.
Already there. They also own the former UK manufacturer Morris Garages (MG) which have made some semi popular models recently, including EVs.
MG6
I’m curious how much a similar vehicle would be in North America. Could BYD import it directly?
It would be considerably more expensive. Safety standards are much higher in Western countries. Also, they still need to build up a sales and maintenance organisation there, that takes a lot of capital. It’ll be interesting to see where they land in their price points, though.
BYD sells their cars in Australia and we have high safety standards, I don’t think they’d need to change much for the US
But how are the prices compared to China?
I did some very quick searching, according to this https://carnewschina.com/2022/12/29/new-2023-byd-dolphin-launched-in-china-price-starts-at-16700-usd/ the Dolphin launched in China for ~AUD$25,400 and you can currently buy it in Australia from AUD$38,890.
So it’s obviously more but they have their government discounts. Depending on the state here you can get rebates too.
They would build them in Mexico due to the cheap labour (much like the majority of legacy automakers already do) and ship them up North and South.
Tariffs on Chinese vehicles in the US are 25+%, but even with that, this would be a bargain. I’m sure there’d be even more costs added bringing it over, but if it can stay under $30k, I think it’d sell a lot, especially if it’s closer to $25k or less.
Just wait until you learn its cloud based
Airbags are on a subscription basis.
Brakes too
Capitalism at work.
That’s about 261 miles
Aaaaand it’s on fire.
From the video “but Europeans would rather buy a BYD than an American car”
Really? I’ve never seen a BYD in Europe, but Teslas are around every corner
If it ever gets sold here
I WANT THAT
