Not only do these people fail as allies and as compassionate human beings, but they’re also very stupid if they don’t see that defending trans rights is the front line of the fight against fascism right now, and we all need to be there fighting it. They’re not going to stop at taking rights away from trans people. It’ll be you next.
They can’t see that attacks on trans rights are also attacks on cis rights. I think that’s part of the reason why Rep. Zoey Zephyr and Rep. SJ Howell were so effective at stopping a couple pieces of anti-trans legislation in Montana yesterday. They talked about the fact that the legislation would potentially effect cis people as well as the fact that it’d take “parental rights” away from parents. They also did it in a way that created a narrative which both cis and trans people can identify with, creating a common ground to further convince people that the legislation was wrong. And it was successful. They got a number of Republican lawmakers to switch sides, despite the fact that the GOP prides itself on being in lockstep. They even had a Republican lawmaker make a stand too, saying that the people introducing this legislation were basically just wasting everyone’s time.
People say, “trans rights are human rights” and they’re serious. We embody the extreme of gender non-conformity that cis people occasionally dabble in, and when you start taking away our rights, you start taking away cis rights too.
Nobody wants your fucking loyalty. They want you to wake the fuck up and get it through your skull that we’re all in this shithole together, and you need to start lending a hand instead of stomping on other’s backs to get yours. Because one day, you might need the rest of us to come save you too.
That’s not true. You people expect me to agree with you on everything or else I’m a nazi.
If I dared to suggest we prioritize reducing the disparity in wealth over fighting a culture war, you people immediately assume I’m an enemy.
You don’t just want loyalty, you crave it. You’re dependent on it. You get mad whenever you don’t get it and throw tantrums until you do or get rid of the person.
If I dared to suggest we prioritize reducing the disparity in wealth over fighting a culture war, you people immediately assume I’m an enemy.
No, because doing one means doing the other. Who do you think is waging the culture war in the first place?
Personally, as a trans person, I don’t want your loyalty. I don’t care about your loyalty. We don’t know one another at all so I don’t even know if you’re someone I’d actually want to hang around; and I’m not gonna ask for loyalty from a total stranger.
What I want is for you to act like a decent human being and understand that the culture war is part of a much larger war about wealth inequality; and that you’re going to struggle if you allow your allies to slowly get picked off by the ones waging the war in the first place. If that occurred then the best you could hope for would be a pyrrhic victory that leaves you asking, “we won, but at what cost?”
There you go doing it again. You’re conflating your agenda with another one to make it seem like people should, say, call you a woman if they want to reduce the disparity in wealth.
That’s a load of malarkey and proves my point even further. It’s sad how the ruling class is robbing us blind because people like you are trying to piggyback your agenda on problems that face the working class.
Also, you personally may not want loyalty but hopefully you can recognize that you are the outlier in that regard.
Damn, you must be a pretty shallow-minded person to miss the fact that the culture war is perpetuated by the rich to keep us from working together. Racism, religious institutions, sexism, queerphobia, these are tools that the rich and powerful use to keep us divided. When you allow them to wage a culture war unopposed, you are letting them use their ideological “weapons of war” without retaliation.
And no, this isn’t just about wanting to be called a woman. This is about being made illegal for who I am. I can’t fight against the wealth gap if I’m in prison for having tits and a dick, now can I? I can’t fight against the wealth gap if I’m struggling from derealization, depersonalization, dissociation, and suicidal depression brought about by crippling dysphoria as a result of being unable to access estrogen, now can I?
Why should I feed this homeless person in front of me when there are millions of children dying in starvation in Africa. In fact by giving food to this homeless person who is probably homeless because of his fault, I am in fact wasting food that could otherwise be across the world at this same instant so I actually won’t do anything other than finishing my burger because I’m snackish. /s
Fuck that was hard to type but it’s not too far from how some people actually think
It’s always been a game for the poors, this ol’ crab-bucket squid game bullshit. Seems like the only way out is to scare the tippy-top to their core. (No spoilers!)
In what way are liberals walking back support for Trans? I’ve seen the comment from Gavin Newsom about athletics, but does that mean he has walked back all support? Or just in that one area?
Walking back support in one area is walking back support.
It ain’t that complex. As soon as concessions are made, the far right demands more because there must always be an enemy to crush completely for the in-group. Who will then pick a new enemy when it comes politically convenient.
No.
If you fall back in front of the far right they will take that ground and demand more, as they always have done, and as they always will do. It’s how they win, it’s how they are winning, on trans rights, on immigration, on racial supremacy. Do not give them an inch. It’s not “all or nothing” it’s “give the bigots nothing”.
Ok, but what if you are not giving into demands, but stating your feelings that just happen to align, in that one area, with the right?
My point is that Trans issues have many different areas. Saying they’re wrong in one area does not mean you are abandoning trans people entirely and just as bad as the bigots that want harm done to them.
Just want to say, I don’t know all of what Newson has said, just read some articles that had 2 or 3 quotes. It’s hard to know what his overall opinions are, though.
I honestly cannot fathom how you can be looking at the situation of the US currently and not realising how wedge issues based on lies and bigotry work and the absolutely deletrious effect it is having on minorities.
Why are you falling for wedge issues that are designed to wipe out a group of people in a way that absolutely parallels actions taken by Nazis? Is a discussion about 10 athletes out of hundreds of thousands that important?
The thing is you don’t align with the far right. At least I hope you don’t anyway. The far right either hate trans people, or they do not give a shit about them either way. They are using trans people as a political football to sow exactly this type of division. Yes, trans people in sport is an unresolved problem. No, I do not want the right wing to be the ones to resolve it. If you align superficially, you still don’t want to cede to them. Bear in mind “align” only goes as far as saying “we can agree about this one sentence”, not this whole issue.
Godwin’s law is fucked these days so let’s just use the third Reich as an analogy. You may agree that Germany has a legitimate territorial claim on Alsace-Lorraine. Does that mean you should let the Nazis take it? No, you fight them and then resolve it when someone more reasonable is asking. The reasons why should be obvious, and so should the analogy. It’s not about whether the extremely superficial claim is “correct”, it’s about why they are saying it and what they plan to do if they get enough people to agree with them.
In this case, where the war is one of ideas, you’re not a bigot if you agree in a very superficial way, but it’s completely redundant to be talking about trans women in sport when all trans people are being stripped of their rights and it looks like things are getting worse. A year ago we were hoping (again) for the first female president; long overdue. That’s not an issue anymore, as women are now being erased from history.
You’ve outlined exactly why allowing the far right to resolve perceived social issues isn’t the way forward, especially when it comes to any sort of “minority” (which seems to be anything that isn’t non-immigrant white Christian cis straight men) issues.
Sure, but your comment is implying it’s an all or nothing situation. Walking back is walking back and nothing else matters.
There’s are multitudes of trans issues, and questioning one does not mean you are questioning all of them.
If somebody thinks people born male shouldn’t be competing in non rec league sports against people born female, that doesn’t mean they should be treated the same as people that want to ban drag shows and ban accepting lgbt children and all the other blatant bigotry coming from the MAGA cult.
If you can’t accept the nuance in the conversations then there will be no conversation.
If you want to pretend there is nuance you will be fully aware that the evidence that supposedly supports banning trans athletes, which is an initial step of control used to further limit transgender people by e.g. preventing them for entering the country, are meta studies based on comparisons of cisgender men and cisgender women, right?
There isn’t a nuanced debate to be had and I’m sick of pretending that people like myself who just want to live our lives are a subject for debate.
So yes, worrying about tens out of hundreds of thousands of athletes when there isn’t clear evidence of an advantage is bigoted and not calling that out leads to situations where conservatives and the far right try to introduce bills like that which was recently struck down (thankfully) in Montana.
Now, question for you - why is it so important to you that a minority of people should have their basic humanity and ability to participate in society be questioned in the way that transgender people are? Why do you support that? Why do you consider that to be an okay thing to do, when the consequences of allowing it are so plain to see?
It’s honestly disappointing to see these sorts of expressions stated here on Lemmy. It was the shitty, uninformed, “I don’t care for the science or data”, reactionary right wing views that contributed to me leaving Reddit and here we are again.
I suppose continuing to dehumanise trans folk with the most important issue being a tiny number of trans people competing in a subset of activities, that are inherently unfair, is so much more important than avoiding demicide.
Got to placate the far right! They are really well known for being reasonable, not demanding more and having positions based wholly on logic without an ounce of hatred slipping through.
Also to add, there is an unfortunate number of Liberals who are quickly walking back any support for trans folk.
Not only do these people fail as allies and as compassionate human beings, but they’re also very stupid if they don’t see that defending trans rights is the front line of the fight against fascism right now, and we all need to be there fighting it. They’re not going to stop at taking rights away from trans people. It’ll be you next.
They can’t see that attacks on trans rights are also attacks on cis rights. I think that’s part of the reason why Rep. Zoey Zephyr and Rep. SJ Howell were so effective at stopping a couple pieces of anti-trans legislation in Montana yesterday. They talked about the fact that the legislation would potentially effect cis people as well as the fact that it’d take “parental rights” away from parents. They also did it in a way that created a narrative which both cis and trans people can identify with, creating a common ground to further convince people that the legislation was wrong. And it was successful. They got a number of Republican lawmakers to switch sides, despite the fact that the GOP prides itself on being in lockstep. They even had a Republican lawmaker make a stand too, saying that the people introducing this legislation were basically just wasting everyone’s time.
People say, “trans rights are human rights” and they’re serious. We embody the extreme of gender non-conformity that cis people occasionally dabble in, and when you start taking away our rights, you start taking away cis rights too.
Can you give some links what these “pieces of anti-trans legislation” were going to do? Not familiar with that yet.
Here’s an article on the two bills that got voted out in Montana: https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/powerful-speeches-from-trans-dems
Most of the anti-trans legislation is as bad or worse; Texas has a couple nutjobs trying to make being trans illegal as a whole.
Of course they’re stupid; they’re Americans.
Yeah, it’s this kind of delusion why people aren’t loyal to you.
Nobody wants your fucking loyalty. They want you to wake the fuck up and get it through your skull that we’re all in this shithole together, and you need to start lending a hand instead of stomping on other’s backs to get yours. Because one day, you might need the rest of us to come save you too.
That’s not true. You people expect me to agree with you on everything or else I’m a nazi.
If I dared to suggest we prioritize reducing the disparity in wealth over fighting a culture war, you people immediately assume I’m an enemy.
You don’t just want loyalty, you crave it. You’re dependent on it. You get mad whenever you don’t get it and throw tantrums until you do or get rid of the person.
No, because doing one means doing the other. Who do you think is waging the culture war in the first place?
Personally, as a trans person, I don’t want your loyalty. I don’t care about your loyalty. We don’t know one another at all so I don’t even know if you’re someone I’d actually want to hang around; and I’m not gonna ask for loyalty from a total stranger.
What I want is for you to act like a decent human being and understand that the culture war is part of a much larger war about wealth inequality; and that you’re going to struggle if you allow your allies to slowly get picked off by the ones waging the war in the first place. If that occurred then the best you could hope for would be a pyrrhic victory that leaves you asking, “we won, but at what cost?”
There you go doing it again. You’re conflating your agenda with another one to make it seem like people should, say, call you a woman if they want to reduce the disparity in wealth.
That’s a load of malarkey and proves my point even further. It’s sad how the ruling class is robbing us blind because people like you are trying to piggyback your agenda on problems that face the working class.
Also, you personally may not want loyalty but hopefully you can recognize that you are the outlier in that regard.
Damn, you must be a pretty shallow-minded person to miss the fact that the culture war is perpetuated by the rich to keep us from working together. Racism, religious institutions, sexism, queerphobia, these are tools that the rich and powerful use to keep us divided. When you allow them to wage a culture war unopposed, you are letting them use their ideological “weapons of war” without retaliation.
And no, this isn’t just about wanting to be called a woman. This is about being made illegal for who I am. I can’t fight against the wealth gap if I’m in prison for having tits and a dick, now can I? I can’t fight against the wealth gap if I’m struggling from derealization, depersonalization, dissociation, and suicidal depression brought about by crippling dysphoria as a result of being unable to access estrogen, now can I?
Sorry, the censorship says otherwise. You may be speaking for yourself, but the movement at large wants to control how people see others.
Are you incapable of breathing and chewing bubble gum at the same time? Why not both?
Because they like to use “we have bigger problems to worry about” as a way of shutting down people calling attention to problems.
Why should I feed this homeless person in front of me when there are millions of children dying in starvation in Africa. In fact by giving food to this homeless person who is probably homeless because of his fault, I am in fact wasting food that could otherwise be across the world at this same instant so I actually won’t do anything other than finishing my burger because I’m snackish. /s
Fuck that was hard to type but it’s not too far from how some people actually think
Prioritize deez nuts
Defending your fellow man isn’t culture war. You bought the propaganda.
Trans rights is simply human rights for trans people. It’s not a culture war issue; it’s a human rights issue.
So what nuace is missing here? Or any topic.
We call those shitty people where I come from.
Unfortunately it‘s not a struggle between left or right anymore but up and down instead. Especially in the US.
So it’s still left vs right
The problem is that in the US you don’t have a left party. Just a right one and a fascist one
It’s always been a game for the poors, this ol’ crab-bucket squid game bullshit. Seems like the only way out is to scare the tippy-top to their core. (No spoilers!)
In what way are liberals walking back support for Trans? I’ve seen the comment from Gavin Newsom about athletics, but does that mean he has walked back all support? Or just in that one area?
Walking back support in one area is walking back support.
It ain’t that complex. As soon as concessions are made, the far right demands more because there must always be an enemy to crush completely for the in-group. Who will then pick a new enemy when it comes politically convenient.
So in your opinion it’s an all or nothing thing? Like, you can’t question one area without going full bigot?
No.
If you fall back in front of the far right they will take that ground and demand more, as they always have done, and as they always will do. It’s how they win, it’s how they are winning, on trans rights, on immigration, on racial supremacy. Do not give them an inch. It’s not “all or nothing” it’s “give the bigots nothing”.
Ok, but what if you are not giving into demands, but stating your feelings that just happen to align, in that one area, with the right?
My point is that Trans issues have many different areas. Saying they’re wrong in one area does not mean you are abandoning trans people entirely and just as bad as the bigots that want harm done to them.
Just want to say, I don’t know all of what Newson has said, just read some articles that had 2 or 3 quotes. It’s hard to know what his overall opinions are, though.
I honestly cannot fathom how you can be looking at the situation of the US currently and not realising how wedge issues based on lies and bigotry work and the absolutely deletrious effect it is having on minorities.
I suppose you’ll still be equivocating and making excuses when it’s gone past travel bans (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/marco-rubio-state-transgender-visa-b2704734.html), erasure of LGBT literature (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/banned-books-lgbtq-transgender-black-people-of-color-pen-america-rcna193879), banning of social and medical transition (https://www.hrc.org/resources/attacks-on-gender-affirming-care-by-state-map, https://www.msn.com/en-us/politics/government/texas-not-for-freedom-house-bill-could-ban-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-adults/ar-AA1AjTF5), the creation of specific crimes for the existence of transgender people (https://msmagazine.com/2025/03/03/montana-hb-446-criminalizes-trans-existence-social-contagion/), the removal of protections in law (https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/01/23/trump-administration-moves-reject-transgender-identity-rights) and we’re in camps waiting to be “purified”.
Why are you falling for wedge issues that are designed to wipe out a group of people in a way that absolutely parallels actions taken by Nazis? Is a discussion about 10 athletes out of hundreds of thousands that important?
The thing is you don’t align with the far right. At least I hope you don’t anyway. The far right either hate trans people, or they do not give a shit about them either way. They are using trans people as a political football to sow exactly this type of division. Yes, trans people in sport is an unresolved problem. No, I do not want the right wing to be the ones to resolve it. If you align superficially, you still don’t want to cede to them. Bear in mind “align” only goes as far as saying “we can agree about this one sentence”, not this whole issue.
Godwin’s law is fucked these days so let’s just use the third Reich as an analogy. You may agree that Germany has a legitimate territorial claim on Alsace-Lorraine. Does that mean you should let the Nazis take it? No, you fight them and then resolve it when someone more reasonable is asking. The reasons why should be obvious, and so should the analogy. It’s not about whether the extremely superficial claim is “correct”, it’s about why they are saying it and what they plan to do if they get enough people to agree with them.
In this case, where the war is one of ideas, you’re not a bigot if you agree in a very superficial way, but it’s completely redundant to be talking about trans women in sport when all trans people are being stripped of their rights and it looks like things are getting worse. A year ago we were hoping (again) for the first female president; long overdue. That’s not an issue anymore, as women are now being erased from history.
Thank you for making this post.
You’ve outlined exactly why allowing the far right to resolve perceived social issues isn’t the way forward, especially when it comes to any sort of “minority” (which seems to be anything that isn’t non-immigrant white Christian cis straight men) issues.
Thanks for saying so, I’m glad that the message came across.
I am not sure what you don’t understand about the statement that walking back support is, in fact, walking back support.
Sure, but your comment is implying it’s an all or nothing situation. Walking back is walking back and nothing else matters.
There’s are multitudes of trans issues, and questioning one does not mean you are questioning all of them.
If somebody thinks people born male shouldn’t be competing in non rec league sports against people born female, that doesn’t mean they should be treated the same as people that want to ban drag shows and ban accepting lgbt children and all the other blatant bigotry coming from the MAGA cult.
If you can’t accept the nuance in the conversations then there will be no conversation.
What conversation do you want exactly?
If you want to pretend there is nuance you will be fully aware that the evidence that supposedly supports banning trans athletes, which is an initial step of control used to further limit transgender people by e.g. preventing them for entering the country, are meta studies based on comparisons of cisgender men and cisgender women, right?
There isn’t a nuanced debate to be had and I’m sick of pretending that people like myself who just want to live our lives are a subject for debate.
So yes, worrying about tens out of hundreds of thousands of athletes when there isn’t clear evidence of an advantage is bigoted and not calling that out leads to situations where conservatives and the far right try to introduce bills like that which was recently struck down (thankfully) in Montana.
Now, question for you - why is it so important to you that a minority of people should have their basic humanity and ability to participate in society be questioned in the way that transgender people are? Why do you support that? Why do you consider that to be an okay thing to do, when the consequences of allowing it are so plain to see?
You’ve perfectly articulated my thoughts as well.
It’s honestly disappointing to see these sorts of expressions stated here on Lemmy. It was the shitty, uninformed, “I don’t care for the science or data”, reactionary right wing views that contributed to me leaving Reddit and here we are again.
I suppose continuing to dehumanise trans folk with the most important issue being a tiny number of trans people competing in a subset of activities, that are inherently unfair, is so much more important than avoiding demicide.
Got to placate the far right! They are really well known for being reasonable, not demanding more and having positions based wholly on logic without an ounce of hatred slipping through.
They weren’t liberals then. They were just going along with what they thought was more popular at the time.
wait, are you telling me the liberals weren’t steadfast absolute allies? that they didn’t really believe in helping us, or anything else, ever?