Summary
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned Europe that it cannot withstand Russia without Ukraine’s military, calling Ukraine’s victory vital to stopping Kremlin expansion.
Speaking to Polish media, Zelenskyy stressed that Russia’s larger, more brutal army would target other European nations if Ukraine falls.
He criticized Western allies for underestimating Russian President Vladimir Putin’s ambitions, urging them to strengthen Ukraine’s defenses.
Eastern Europe: “we know already, and they (pointing westwards) are starting to get it”.
The ones that really don’t get it are former Warsaw pact areas like Hungary, Slovakia and Serbia. Who actively SUPPORT Russia!
We built NATO for this while goddamn reason, Kyiv just wasn’t available as a signatory at that time. It is now. Use the opportunity, before the USA is able to thwart it due to our current Foothold situation
ukraine has the second largest military in europe. if trump pulls the us out of nato, it may suddenly become an issue.
Not really. Europe’s army is “small” because we have not been drafted.
Populations:
- Europe: 450 million
- Russia: 150 million
- Ukraine: 35 million
Defending countries will draft most of their people, while the attackers draft far less. Countries that are not at war will simply not draft and will have a natural army size. (Which protects the country until people get drafted and trained)
There’s no reason to compare apples and pears here.
Only people taking the draft actually seriously would be nations that have been at war or occupied with russia. For westerners russia is “that funny accent vodka nation” instead of the existential, genocidal torture enthusiast nation waiting to end you.
No you’re just not one the important whites so you get treated like the rest of the world, difference being you’re close to Russia. Now if your have any melanin then your issue suddenly becomes America and the west as existential, genocidal torture enthusiast waiting to exploit every last resource you have and you let your nation collapse then have it funded by the IMF under their strict terms
He’s right.
Ukraine grows a LOT of grain. It’s going to be a big problem when they stop providing Europe and the world.
On a more cynical note: Ukraine grows a lot of Russian obituaries, which the EU doesn’t have to, should they try to invade the Baltics once they are successful in Ukraine.
I’m not certain why your point was downvoted (maybe the wording confused people)… but folks may grumble about paying extra taxes to financially support the Ukrainian army but that does not even compare to the rage governments would face if they started sending volunteer or drafted troops to fight the frontline.
It’s incredibly cynical of course - but if Ukraine is willing to fight and die for European freedom for the low low cost of just some money its insane to reject their offer.
Russia will not stop at Ukraine. They may stop at the Polish border, but the Baltic states are absolutely within Putin’s gaze.
if Ukraine is willing to fight and die for European freedom for the low low cost of just some money its insane to reject their offer.
Insane. It pisses me off no end that we haven’t given them the tools to not just defend their freedom, but to win. Fuck your fear of escalation. There are North Korean soldiers fighting a war of aggression in Europe.
Like how much more are we going to take?
all of it. Europe bought the lie of peace dividends, outsourced their defense to America, and elected weapons grade morons and co-conspirators like Burlesconi, Merkel and Orban, who opened the door for Putin to put Europe in a comprimising position once he decided to s tart shooting.
And now America wants out.
Europe’s either going to have to prepare for war. or accept that Russia is going to get to do what it wants, and continue to ratfuck European politics with shit like Orban, Fico, and whatever the fuck BRUV is.
Not a problem for Europe.
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/efscm-assessment-autumn-2023_en.pdf
Based on prices increase for the last two years « because it’s from Ukraine »… either we are being fooled by big corps or Ukraine do produces 80% goods and food for Europe
Well, if you’re from the EU, that would make sense. In America, we grow a lot of grain here in Canada and the US.
Eu is mostly self sufficient on base foods:
https://agriculture.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-11/efscm-assessment-autumn-2023_en.pdf
If you look at fig. 4 on page 5, almost every meat source is above 100%, and fig 5 show most plant foods vary between 60-130%.
In the 70’s the ECC which EU was called back then, turned European agriculture around from huge deficits to huge surpluses. To ensure self sufficiency in case of international destabilization. This resulted in enormous stockpiles, leading to a more balanced policy, which we seem to have achieved.
In short EU is NOT dependent on food from Ukraine, but others are.
We do import soy and maize, but have a surplus on grains.The main shortfall in the EU is protein crops, not just soy but most of our lentils are from Canada, we’re more of a pea continent and not really growing that many of them. It’s unlikely that imports from the Americas will be cut off, though, and if they are then we still won’t be anywhere close to famine but meat and milk products will become a lot more expensive.
True, but as it is now, farmers in EU are actually paid for NOT farming as much as they can. EU can increase production significantly within a year. But yes that would mean that prices would increase on some products, but I don’t think it would increase very much on meat, although it would probably make fodder a bit more expensive.
EU has capacity for significant surplus production overall, and we could shift a lot of imported products to products grown in the EU.
Ah ok then!
I think we should help Ukraine, but Russia would get their clock cleaned by European NATO (even without US).
and Europe would take catastrophic casualties in doing so.
America is an ocean away, and doesn’t have to worry about war on their soil.Europe on the other hand, can you honestly say that society is ready for events like Bucha on their soil? a Russian brigade breaks through the line, gets bogged down,isnt able to advance any further, so decides to loot , rape and mass murder the population before retreating?
Bucha and Mariupol is why the entire NATO strategy changed. it used to be that the baltics would effectively be surrendered temporarily while the European backbone mobilized, France Germany Poland etc. But thats no longer an option because intelligence knows that the Russian Soldiery, for lack of a better term, act like savage ghouls. and will put innocent men women and children to the sword for no reason other than spite.
and failing that, they will bomb a city to dust like they did to Mariupol, Bakhmut, and so many others
One thing Russia has infintely more experience than Europe, its people are used to the realities of war, Martial law, no rights, Resource scarcity, No protesting. they just behave like lemmings now. Its sad, but its an advantage.
European populations would be calling for an armistice and selling out countries on the periphery as soon as it started because they dont want to go to war.
Regardless, I’d rather we not test that theory. It doesn’t matter which side wins, we all would lose.
As long as the nuke is dropped on my head, I don’t care.
I could use a break from all this winning tho
Putin has said as much, it is why he constantly reminds everyone of his nuclear arsenal and apparent willingness to end the world over small matters.
Small dick energy on Putins part.
Astroturfing orcs downvoting
Putin doesn’t own a big red button he can push to launch nukes. There are layers in command that would not comply. And they’ve done it before. Same goes for Trump.
the Russian system is far less removed from failsafes than the US one is.
while I dont think its active anymore, the russian system was rumoured to be completely autonomous too, meaning if connection was broken between points A and B, or however the network was set up, such as Moscow or the supposed command bunkers in Mount Yamantau got taken out, some missiles would launch automatically.
as I said though, I dont think they’ve had the dead hand turned on for many many years. trusting a soviet computer not to malfunction is like playing russian roulette with 4 in the cylinder.
except ukraine was the one maintaining russian missiles and we know very well how poor russian military maintenance culture is and how low the morale is to do anything if failure to do so does not result in beatings/rape. Pair that with how damn remote everything is and how even in 90s there were silos where not the high maintenance missile was in disrepair but the silo basic systems were, then the more accurate analogy would be "russian roulette with 25 round capacity cylinder, 10 rounds in and 90% are duds.
I’m not sure how, for one second you believe that if Putin ordered a nuclear strike, that order wouldn’t be carried out.
I think some people underestimate how spiteful Russians are.
their whole national identity, since the advent of Z-Fascism, has become “We dont care if we die, But we’ll take you with us, you have far more to lose than us”
Maybe or maybe not.
Look at Israel. Why do you think the US sending them more weapons for their genocide every month? Because they don’t have the material to fight a protracted war. That’s largely how it is in Europe too, and it’s a good thing, because they don’t have the ‘bomb first and then ask questions later’ mentality that Americans do.
How many NATO soldiers have experience fighting a full-scale war on their territory against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
How many NATO soldiers have experience fighting a full-scale war on their territory against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
I’m not sure, but since this is the Russian-Ukraine conflict we’re talking about, we don’t have to worry about one showing up. Russia is barely a near peer to Ukraine, they wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell against more than one country at a time without their nukes, let alone NATO as a whole.
Nukes are literally the only thing that lets Russia pretend they’re still a superpower and not a failed state. But as we can see in Ukraine, they can’t even beat a former client state and has to resort to bringing our cold war era equipment, so double lol at “similar capabilities”
Russia is more than capable of butchering european civilian populations, that is the main concern.
everyone knows they’d get their shit rocked in conventional war, its the mass murder of civilians, bombardment of cities, and retaliatiory table flipping ragequit nuclear attacks that everyone is afraid of.
Realtalk, Ukraine and russia are the only two big nations with experience in drone warfare, which is the current patch. Everyone else hasn’t really updated yet.
I believe you are forgetting about the vast and formidable legion of battle-hardened and experienced North Korean soldiers they have at their disposal. /s
Don’t forget the various foreign nationals they tricked with promises of well paying support jobs only to hand them rifles and send them to the front lines.
That is more concerning since they are almost all exclusively pedophiles.
“similar technological and production capabilities”
Okay bud. Russia has pretty effectively burned through their best equipment and skilled fighters and is basically running on pure authoritarian insistence right now.
fighting a conventional war, yeah they’re a joke.
but they are more than capable of butchering european civilian populations, bombarding cities, and if need be, flipping the table in a rage and launching, after they panic when their conventional forces are defeated.you dont need a sophisticated army to commit mass murder and destruction. the concern isn’t about preventing european militaries from being outmanuevered, surrounded and killed. its about preventing the russians from tiny breakthroughs that result in things like Bucha or Mariupol, where a city is burned to the ground, where a town has hundreds of innocent people executed.
Similar technologies is an extreme stretch as well, Russia is not anywhere near the technology level of other NATO nations. They need China to get anywhere near that level, and I’m not sure China would give them that level of support if a wider conflict broke out.
against an enemy with similar technological and production capabilities?
We’re talking about Russia here.
you’re right, we should take the fight to them. they should have to deal with cleaning up landmines etc after all their base are belong to us
TIL training doesn’t exist.
Training will only get your units to level 3. Then it only provides a trickle of army XP to maybe get a doctrine out, at a huge cost of equipment. If you want units at level 5 before the big one starts, you’ve got to send volunteers. But seriously, I’m pretty sure actual combat is much different than training.
A random story on that topic: A family member of mine, who was in the service, got where he was going with his people, told everybody what to do, and everything got underway. A little group of people went down the path they were supposed to go down. A little while later one of their guys comes TEARING back up the path, all in a panic, and yells at my family member “JESUS CHRIST SERGEANT THEY’RE KILLING PEOPLE DOWN THERE”.
Like, yeah, I get it. It’s pretty fucking upsetting. Training is one thing and seeing people turning into corpses and chunks flying off them is way, way different. I’m not trying to make light, because I do get what he was getting it, but my family thought it was pretty funny.
A good read: GILES, Keir, 2024. Who Will Defend Europe?. 24 October 2024. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9781911723486.
Zelenskyy can go fuck himself. He’s a total idiot if he hasn’t figured out he’s a US puppet for a proxy war.
They’ve been operating as the tip of the spear and begging for more ammo since day 1, they know full well it’s a proxy not just between US/Russia but the EU and old agreed land divisions all across the continent. They’ve been held back due to MAD concerns and the new administration is fully fascist.
What do you suggest this “unknowing puppet” do instead, your better idea?
of course this is from a @lemmy.ml user
Harsh but true. The downvoters aren’t interested in reading the reality of the situation, and it does suck to see entire countries being treated as expendable pawns, but that’s just how the game of global politics is played.
There is a reason why the west is not authorizing Ukraine to strike more aggressively deep within Russia even when Ukraine put in the hard work and made the sacrifice to counter the invasion.
All the European cowards in the comments writing Ukraine off, now that Trump is coming to power. Without even pretending to put up a fight, without US omni presence. Shame on you. Put would kick your asses, and he know it, you’d fold just like you did to the reich. Nothing changes.
Are those “european cowards” in a room here with us?
Most of people here I know is just hoping that at least half of our military spending would go straight to Ukraine. The support must flow.
Can you absolutely shut the fuck up. Europe can and should fill the gap if trump pussies out.
Exactly how many F16s has the US given? Oh that’s right. Zero.
Europe has (in total) ponied up more in arms and cash than the US.
I would rather be taxed to death than see them overrun.
Jog on.
Can’t we just buy the grain off of Russia if they win? Asking for a friend
Maybe?? It will take awhile to fully capture and subjugate Ukrainian infrastructure. If the Citizens resist they will be slaughtered and replaced slowly. All of this will take time and the pillaged resources need to fill the war debt first.
I doubt, Russia has trouble producing simple items like butter for internal use, not to mention exports. Pretty sure that they will grow basically no grain if they win.
During WW2 there were people buying gold teeth from concentration camps wardens without asking any questions.
Ask your friend if his grandpa was one of them.
Like the Swiss?
Well, you could. But imagine after all the conflict, would Russia offer a good deal? Who’d pay for the cost increase? And what else could they ask in return, more raw material for nuclear weapons, so that in 15 years they can go another round with an even better odds?
