If so, was it polled somewhere?

  • Doubledee [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    Could you provide an example of Hexbears agreeing with the alt-right about something specific? I think a lot of people conflate “disagreeing with the liberal consensus” with “thinking a MAGA thing” when they’re really pretty different.

    • McNasty@sh.itjust.works
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      1 year ago

      Mostly about China and North Korea.

      Alt right and alt left both deny Uyghur camps, and think Kim Jong Un is pretty awesome.

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        In my experience alt right folks are pretty anti China, to the point where that is often the reason they oppose the Ukraine war, as it is dividing the attention of the Christian west from the rising, menacing Tigers that threaten white society.

        Hexbears are often skeptical of Adrian Zenz who is usually the source of claims about China. Most that I’ve seen acknowledge that there are camps (China openly says it is running programs to deradicalize separatists and fundamentalists in the region), but disagree that they are as bad as western media depicts them, and would probably argue that western nations are concern trolling about the issue regardless because it is easy to question whether American foreign policy is motivated by concern for Muslims. Genuinely curious, who is an alt-right guy who doesn’t think there are camps in Xinjiang? I’ve never encountered a pro-Chinese reactionary.

        As to Korea I thought MAGA types just memed about Kim Jong Un because Trump sort of got along with him. Hexbears think that the Korean War was bad and that Korea is acting predictably given that a nuclear power is constantly threatening them with annihilation. There are a variety of positions in Hexbear on the DPRK though, and I can’t really account for all of them, but I think they arise out of a genuine anti-imperial and anti-war sentiment, and a healthy doze of skepticism of western narratives of a state enemy. I don’t think you could say that for the alt right.

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Last I checked the alt right believes them same claims about the world that dems do in terms of the supposed camps, they just think they are good because the alt right hates muslims

      • Doubledee [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Could you be more specific?

        I think, for example, that most alt-right types oppose the war either because of chauvinistic beliefs about American boys and American blood and treasure being spent on foreigners, or because they would like to work together with Russia to counter China and think a war with them hurts the white struggle against the eastern hordes. No one on hexbear would defend either of those positions.

        It needs to be more specific than “both of you are against continuing the war.” Just like it wouldn’t be fair for me to accuse you of being alt- right because you and them both agree that there weren’t WMDs in Iraq and that that invasion was sold on false pretenses. You might both technically agree but it would be missing the point.

        • Estiar@sh.itjust.works
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          It’s theories about how spheres of influence work, that Russia has a right to take over Ukraine, or at least override it politically. Very much similar to Kissinger’s Great power politics in the days of the USSR. It’s somewhat different than the Russian right which is their divine right to Empire, over the Ukrainians and the Poles and Slavic countries in general. The ideologues Ivan Ilyin and Karl Schmidt influence that part. But notably, both parts believe that there’s a place that Russia must dominate in Europe, and that other great powers must not interfere there. Leftists also are influenced by these theories, especially when they remember the reaches of the Iron Curtain far into Central Europe. The USSR had a history of intervening into the politics of its satellite states. Notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests, they sent in tanks to quell the uprising. This theory echoes in 2014 when the Ukrainians changed their government, and Russia invades and annexes Crimea. Many on the far left and far right see the massive protests as creeping American influence that does not belong in the region. They fear NATO expansion as it is a threat to Russia; In the west it’s Russia itself, and in Russia, it’s Russian greatness in Empire.

          • Doubledee [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            I’m sorry, I’m not sure I understand. Liberals don’t believe that countries exert influence on other countries around them? You think Joe Biden objects to the concept of spheres of influence? You brought up Kissinger, you don’t think US foreign policy is operating under the logic of realpolitik? I’m not sure what the alternative is to believing that countries act to pursue their interests in other countries. That just sounds like a description of the concept of foreign policy.

          • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            notably in Hungary when there were democratic protests

            You’re talking about the fascist uprising where they went around marking the houses of Jews and Communists for extermination, like only a decade after the Soviets saved the world from Hitler?

        • MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works
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          How is being pro russia and wanting war to end in any way compatible though? They invaded Ukraine. They literally started a war. That’s a pretty disgusting deflection tbh

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            1 year ago

            NATO/US started the war when they couped the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014, and when the US installed regime started bombing civilians in the Donbass

            • MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works
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              Oh so Russia is just saving Ukrainians from US imperialism by bombing them and committing war crimes. Thank god for our wonderful leader putin o7

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                Where did I say any of that? I was simply correcting the poster about who the original instigators of the conflict were, and pointing out the fact that the banderite regime has been killing innocent Ukrainians for years, history did not begin in February 2022

                Acknowledging the US’s role in creating the conflict and the crimes of the regime they installed is not the same as supporting Russia’s actions

          • Venus [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            Russia started a war. Ukraine has two choices. Surrender and end the bloodshed, or fight tooth and nail and pour more innocent people into the meat grinder and then surrender. There is not a third option. Obviously they should choose the former.

          • somename [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            We’re just not keeping our head in the sand here. Ukraine is not taking back Crimea, or even the Donbas. The counteroffensive failed horribly. Cheering for more bloodshed isn’t going to make a better outcome in the end.

            • Zirconium@sh.itjust.works
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              “cheering for more bloodshed.” Are you telling on yourself? You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy. It’s not, war is bloody and deadly and Russia is not going to call for peace until they achieve their objective of overthrowing the Ukrainian government or achieving a peace deal where they can keep Ukraine’s economic sectors

              • PandaBearGreen [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                Yall calling for the continuation of the war are telling on yourselves. Otherwise you’d fucking be fighting rather than advocating behind a computer for others to die. Too scared to go to Spain and fight the fascists?

                • Zirconium@sh.itjust.works
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                  You act like peace deals are the same thing as calls for peace. They can still have peace deals to appear they want peace when they started the war in the first place back in 2014

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                    You act as if a peace deal isn’t literally someone calling for peace.
                    Lmao what with the “infiltrators” that cannot be proven? The two oblasts have a large population that is ethnically russian. When a government that had spoken of cleansing russian influence comes into power, it is pretty understandable that that would foment separatism. At best we can prove Russia provided financial aid to separatists, and then later stepped in and negotiate Minsk I and II, which were both broken by Ukraine

              • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                You act like a counteroffensive is supposed to be fast and easy.

                It’s September. Their window to make any gains in their counteroffensive has passed. Now they have to fight against the weather on top of the Russians.

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                The only progress the counteroffensive has made is in destroying Western materiel and getting scores of Ukrainians killed. They haven’t even reached the second defensive line yet. The total amount of territory retaken is like 100 meters of farmland. I’m calling it a failure because it is a failure.

                • ReadFanon [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                  Hey, it’s made a lot of money for the military-industrial complex too!

                  You can’t call it a wash like that when, back home, the almighty line is going up.

          • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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            They can either surrender now, or surrender when all the able bodied people have been killed for no good reason. Ukraine can no longer win this war.

            • Zirconium@sh.itjust.works
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              “Ukraine should surrender so that they can spare their civilian and combatant lives to Russia which totally won’t abuse their land and people as they’ve done in the past”

              • Egon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                Ukraine should surrender now while people still have families to come home to, instead of propagating senseless death.
                You’re also just making russian demands up? At no point during this war has Russia sought to annex the entirety of Ukraine, which it seems to be whate you are implying they will do.
                Please try to remain in reality.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    There were pogroms and mass murders at the ground level and there were laws targeting Russian speakers from the governmental level. The weapons Trump was impeached for tying political favors to were being used against resistance militias. They were being used to bomb facilities built in the soviet era that pump hot water into people’s homes as the local method of heating during the winter. They locked over a hundred people in a building and burned them alive in it. They broke multiple treaties with Russia in order to do all of this. This was the lead up to the war.

                  • ReadFanon [any, any]@hexbear.net
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                    What ethnic cleansing?

                    Whoop, there it is! I’m quoting that for posterity before you delete this comment.

                    You’re literally denying an attempted genocide right now, y’know that?

          • somename [she/her]@hexbear.net
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            Do you think we’re in charge of the Russian military? The war is going to end eventually one way or another. We might as well push for the path that preserves Ukrainian lives.

            • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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              Are we in charge of the Ukrainian military? Not that it really matters, but still.

              Russia can unilaterally end the conflict. Ukraine cannot (yet). Calling on Ukrainians to surrender while they still want to defend themselves is cowardice. I would rather support their continued struggle.

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                You just insulted me with the sole thrust being that I’m not in your echo chamber.

                I’m referencing real world events. Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war? Do you not have google?

                e: And what’s this weasel bullshit where you slipped in ‘Ukrainians’ like I’m going after the citizens and not the government? The Ukrainian people haven’t had a legitimate government since 2014 when the one they actually elected themselves was deposed in a far right western backed coup.

                • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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                  Do you not believe Ukraine broke both Minsk I and II as a lead up to the war?

                  What I think is that it doesn’t matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.

                  Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory. The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.

                  With that said, Minsk I saw violations on both sides and fell apart for that reason. Minsk II was fundamentally similar to Minsk I and thus was going to struggle to escape the same fate. While the Russians claimed that Ukraine violated the terms of Minsk II, they also claimed that they were not a party to Minsk II and thus were not violating it with their own troop buildup. Of course, they also claim that Ukraine’s supposed violations of Minsk II were justification for further Russian invasion, despite claiming to not be a party to the treaty. That’s some duplicitous behavior and, again, if I were in Ukraine I would not want the Russian military in my country.

                  All that said, the point that Minsk I and II are not justification for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They sure as hell were not justification for the initial invasion of Crimea, Luhansk, and Donetsk (not existing yet during those) and they’re not justification of Russia’s continued invasion deeper into Ukraine.

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    What I think is that it doesn’t matter in the context of an aggressive war against a country that was not threatening Russia.

                    Lol well that’s just a fucking lie. Zelenksy was openly threatening to host nuclear weapons for Nato on the eve of the invasion. Do you have a selective memory or are you just fucking ignorant of the entire history of this conflict and should therefore shut the fuck up?

                    Minsk I came about after the Russian military had invaded and annexed Ukrainian territory.

                    They didn’t invade; they were already there. The legitimate government of Ukraine leased the naval base to them in Crimea and when the western backed coup government wanted to revoke the lease they simply stayed. Accuse them of squatting.

                    The first of these two agreements is already taking place after the initial aggression and thus are not really factors in the question of whether Ukraine should defend itself from that aggression.

                    Well that’s just fucking stupid. Peace treaties don’t count if they came after a war?

                    Sorry you just lost my attention with that one

          • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            Damn too bad they’re not going to do that, so what should we do about that? We support a negotiated settlement to the conflict in order to achieve peace, you support marching every single Ukrainian person into a meat grinder to die. Which of is more right wing?

            • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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              This isn’t about us. What “we” should do is to support and show solidarity with the side being attacked by an imperialist, dictatorial state and help them defend themselves.

              When the Finnish were defending themselves in the Winter War it would not have been just to say “they should just surrender to save their lives”. The Finns did eventually surrender, but only after they had stomped the Soviet army all across Finland. They continued fighting not to die but so that they could live.

              The Ukrainians are fighting now not to die but so that they can live in (relative) freedom.

              Again, this “we should just capitulate to whatever warmongers want” stuff is shameful and cowardly, doubly so for people on the Left.

              • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                Lol of all the examples, you pick another group of Nazis as a favorable point of comparison!! Wtf. Thank GOD the Soviets beat the Finnish Nazis in that war and then went on to beat the German Nazis after that.

                Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia, it’s just as fucked politically even prior to this invasion, now they’ve banned all left wing parties and are putting up statues of Nazis all over the place, fuck off, this has nothing at all to do with freedom.

                • winterayars@sh.itjust.works
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                  Finland allied with the Nazis after the Winter War, in an attempt to regain their sovereignty from the USSR. They were not allied with Nazi Germany during the Winter War–and after the war, the leadership of the USSR agreed that Finland was not a particular risk and could be left alone.

                  Also lmao at calling Ukraine a free country compared to Russia

                  Ukraine is a far, far freer country than Russia. Of that there should be no doubt. On what merit, what axis, is Russia a freer society? Perhaps there is one, but Russia today is a corrupt, dictatorial, fascist state whose ruling party routinely imprisons or assassinates its political opposition or just general dissidents. They’re also hardcore anti-gay, among other things.

                  Ukraine did suspend a number of pro-Russia political parties recently. Even if it was specifically targeting left-wing parties that still pales in comparison to Russia’s treatment of political opposition and let’s not forget that Ukraine is currently waging a defensive war against Russia. Also Zelensky is Jewish so i doubt he is putting up Nazi statues or in favor of doing so. I presume you’re referring to activity of the Azov Battalion or some other group inside Ukraine and while those are dangerous and problematic, the Nazis in the Russian army are (I suspect) a more serious threat to the Ukrainian people right now.

                  • RedDawn [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    Russia and Ukraine are basically the same politically, except for there are more Nazis in power in Ukraine. Prior to the invasion Ukraine was categorically ranked as the most corrupt country in Europe, Zelensky himself is in the Panama papers, they absolutely are not good on gay rights either, they overthrew their democratically elected president in 2014 in a CIA backed coup to put in a government handpicked by the U.S. (we can listen to Nuland picking the government on leaked phone calls), they’ve banned political opposition and all leftist parties (not pro-Russia, just all leftists. Being leftist generally means having semi sane takes like not wanting everybody in the country to die, so they had to be banned by the Nazi regime).

                    Also I didn’t say Russia is a free country, but Ukraine is easily just as bad if not worse, it’s a total farce to make this about freedom or democracy or any of that shit. Hell if democracy in Ukraine was real the war wouldn’t be happening, Zelensky was elected to end the conflict in the Donbass, he went to the front lines and told the Nazis to lay down arms and they told him to fuck off lol. You can watch the video of that happening.

        • yuri@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          imagine dying on the “war is bad” hill. i can agree on that point, and i don’t even need to politically align myself with real shitters and make a fool of myself in pseudo-public to do it!

            • ReadFanon [any, any]@hexbear.net
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              Bro, this war is totally different to every other war, bro!

              Trust me, bro! I know we got duped into supporting:

              The Korean War

              The Vietnam War

              The war in Iraq

              The other war in Iraq

              The war in Afghanistan

              The war in the Philippines

              The war in Guatemala

              The war on Cuba

              The war in Laos

              The war in Cambodia

              The war in Somalia

              The war in Yemen

              The war in Libya

              The war in Grenada

              The war in Yugoslavia

              …but this time it’s an existential threat!! Trust me, bro!

      • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        “Very” implies you’ve drilled down beyond the very first superficial similarity.

        Please offer two things in which we have in common since you’re clearly not just talking out of your ass.