Hello World,
following feedback we have received in the last few days, both from users and moderators, we are making some changes to clarify our ToS.
Before we get to the changes, we want to remind everyone that we are not a (US) free speech instance. We are not located in US, which means different laws apply. As written in our ToS, we’re primarily subject to Dutch, Finnish and German laws. Additionally, it is our discretion to further limit discussion that we don’t consider tolerable. There are plenty other websites out there hosted in US and promoting free speech on their platform. You should be aware that even free speech in US does not cover true threats of violence.
Having said that, we have seen a lot of comments removed referring to our ToS, which were not explicitly intended to be covered by our ToS. After discussion with some of our moderators we have determined there to be both an issue with the ambiguity of our ToS to some extent, but also lack of clarity on what we expect from our moderators.
We want to clarify that, when moderators believe certain parts of our ToS do not appropriately cover a specific situation, they are welcome to bring these issues up with our admin team for review, escalating the issue without taking action themselves when in doubt. We also allow for moderator discretion in a lot of cases, as we generally don’t review each individual report or moderator action unless they’re specifically brought to admin attention. This also means that content that may be permitted by ToS can at the same time be violating community rules and therefore result in moderator action. We have added a new section to our ToS to clarify what we expect from moderators.
We are generally aiming to avoid content organizing, glorifying or suggesting to harm people or animals, but we are limiting the scope of our ToS to build the minimum framework inside which we all can have discussions, leaving a broader area for moderators to decide what is and isn’t allowed in the communities they oversee. We trust the moderators judgement and in cases where we see a gross disagreement between moderatos and admins’ criteria we can have a conversation and reach an agreement, as in many cases the decision is case-specific and context matters.
We have previously asked moderators to remove content relating to jury nullification when this was suggested in context of murder or other violent crimes. Following a discussion in our team we want to clarify that we are no longer requesting moderators to remove content relating to jury nullification in the context of violent crimes when the crime in question already happened. We will still consider suggestions of jury nullification for crimes that have not (yet) happened as advocation for violence, which is violating our terms of service.
As always, if you stumble across content that appears to be violating our site or community rules, please use Lemmys report functionality. Especially when threads are very active, moderators will not be able to go through every single comment for review. Reporting content and providing accurate reasons for reports will help moderators deal with problematic content in a reasonable amount of time.
Jury nullification should not be a banned topic. It’s perfectly legal and is the only direct way citizens can object to interpretations of the law. The very fact that the courts and government don’t want people to know of it is a testament to its effectiveness in cases where the public will opposes the government in matters of law. Particularly when public opinion differs drastically from a strict interpretation of the law, but most especially when citizens find a law, its often limited proponents, or its execution to be objectionable, unconscionable, cruel, or unwilling to take circumstances into consideration. It’s crucial for us to all understand our limited power over the government, especially when it’s acting in an oppressive manner, violating human rights, ignoring the principle of justice in favor of a literal interpretation, or is otherwise objectionable by the majority of citizens as opposed to the minority of lawmakers.
I can understand (though not agree) with banning clear advocation for violence of CEOs, but the “I haven’t had a reason to smile this much in a while” message that got the user banned was too far.
We will still consider suggestions of jury nullification for crimes that have not (yet) happened as advocation for violence
I see jury nullification as similar to self defense, just at a larger scale. I take this message as “You’re not allowed to talk about defending yourself for future occasions, only ones that have already happened.”
I guess talking about owning a gun for self defense can be seen as “advocating for violence” but that’s a narrow minded view, where nullification is only used when the ethics are on the greater good, like thousands of deaths vs the one.This shit is exhausting and incoherent to read. Also, jury nullification is in no way, shape or form ‘advocating for violence’.
Is your opinion that advocating for jury nullification would constitute some violation of Dutch, Finnish or German law based on legal advice?
we are not a (US) free speech instance
Thank you for reminding this. Some people always think that Lemmy.world is US-based or managed, while this is clearly not the case.
People also seem to somehow believe that free speech in the US means that private instances can’t deplatform you for the things you say.
I have no idea why anyone thinks that extends to anyone besides the government censoring speech or why they think free speech means freedom from the consequences of that speech.
Many Americans have a weak grasp on even the most basic details of their constitution. During my stay there, I heard “free speech” improperly being used as a defense by people of many different backgrounds.
This drives me crazy. I’ve commented this before, but I’ll say it again:
People in the US love to cry first amendment (freedom of speech, etc) any time something they say has consequences.
- Sexually harass a coworker? Freedom of speech!
- Business owner says something bigoted and people stop patronizing their business? Freedom of speech!
- Get banned from a Facebook group for being an ass? Freedom of speech!
- Kicked out of a shop for your offensive shirt? Freedom of speech!
Funny how the same people with wE tHe PeOpLe bumper stickers are the ones who haven’t actually bothered to read their own bill of rights. These people also seem to think that “free speech” (as they define it) should only apply to speech they agree with.
Those are the idiots, the real users of the first amendment are the assholes who allowed corporations to have free speech.
This is what led to to the Citizens United decision that has pumped billions into our election cycle (which now never ends). It has created a media that is dependent on those billions in ad revenue, YouTube included. And along with the Super PAC rules, allows unlimited bribing of our “elected” officials.
Exactly right.
Free speech means that the government can’t prosecute you for what you say (except in certain specific circumstances).
Free speech doesn’t mean that I can’t kick you out of my house for what you say.
What we need is a government-operated fediverse instance to serve as a public forum.
What we need is a government-operated fediverse instance to serve as a public forum.
That sounds like something Bernie or AOC would advocate for. It would honestly be pretty lit for a bit, before being taken over by lobby industry bots.
Free speech is a principle (like free trade) in addition to a fundamental right enumerated in the 1A enforceable against the government. People are making policy arguments when they discuss it in the context of private entities deplatforming advocating for private implementation of the principle into business practices.
It’s still unethical to bar speech that you don’t agree with on a public platform when that speech is realavent to the topic in the post/group unless that content is illegal or calling for violence, etc. I almost banned someone from my sub based on what they said in another and realized that it would be an abuse of power and that person was entitled to their opinion outside of the sub that I moderate.
It’s still unethical to bar speech that you don’t agree with
Sure, but not if that speech is incitement to violence. Then it’s a legal responsibility to shut it down.
No, there’s no legal responsibility to shut down violent speech in any country, including the Netherlands. If there was, then speaking in support of capitalism would be illegal. If there’s a law on the books that says it prohibits violent speech, it’s not enforced consistently.
Sure Dragonfucker.
Netherlands Criminal Code
Part V. Serious Offences against Public Order
Section 131
- Any person who in public, either verbally or in writing or through images, incites another or others to commit any criminal offence or act of violence against the authorities, shall be liable to a term of imprisonment not exceeding five years or a fine of the fourth category.
Thank you for your detailed legal analysis.
Please remove the personal attack. Thanks, MGMT.
Brian Thompson isn’t a Dutch authority, so it’s not illegal to incite violence against him, as per your quote.
Ouch
That’s not true at all
There will never be a country that prohibits violent speech because it’s impossible.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
you said there’s no legal responsibility, when there absolutely is, even in the United States under fair harbor website rules.
It’s a lot more strict in Europe and other places.
Try Germany:
§111 (1) StGB:
Anyone who publicly, in a meeting or by disseminating content (Section 11 (3)) incites an unlawful act shall be punished as an instigator (Section 26).
§130 StGB:
(1) Anyone who, in a manner likely to disturb the public peace,
- incites hatred against a national, racial, religious or ethnic group, against parts of the population or against an individual because of his membership of a designated group or part of the population, or incites violence or arbitrary measures, or
- attacks the human dignity of others by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming a designated group, parts of the population or an individual because of their membership of a designated group or part of the population, shall be liable to a custodial sentence of three months to five years.
(2) A custodial sentence not exceeding three years or a monetary penalty shall be imposed on anyone who
- disseminates or makes available to the public content (Section 11 (3)) or offers, provides or makes available to a person under the age of eighteen content (Section 11 (3)) that a) incites hatred against a group referred to in paragraph 1 number 1, against sections of the population or against an individual because of his or her membership of a group referred to in paragraph 1 number 1 or of a section of the population, b) incites violence or arbitrary measures against persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a), or c) violates the human dignity of persons or groups of persons referred to in letter a) by insulting, maliciously denigrating or defaming them, or
- produces, obtains, supplies, keeps in stock, offers, advertises or undertakes to import or export content referred to in number 1 letters a to c (§ 11 paragraph 3) in order to use it in the sense of number 1 or to enable another person to make such use of it.
I’m fairly certain CEOs could fall under the “designated group” label but I’m not a lawyer. If that is the case, lemmy.world can be held accountable for the spread of content promoting their death.
CEOs aren’t a designated group, they’re a voluntary group. And 111 only prohibits advocating unlawful violence. It’s perfectly legal in Germany to say that criminals should be locked up. Imprisonment is a violent act, and it’s completely legal to advocate it. And criminals, just like CEOs, are not a designated group.
While you and I may give a shit about ethics you can’t expect everyone to hold themselves to the same standards unless you want your heart broken every day for the rest of your life.
Usually bc they are trying to see if they can get away with that argument. And sometimes it works so they continue to try.
A huge number of Americans are dumbfucks. I deal with that every day.
911 = life or limb emergency.
I can assure you that 98% of Americans can’t even grasp that simple concept.
Misinformation.
Many places here in the states don’t operate a separate, non-emergency line and calling 911 is appropriate even when it isn’t an emergency.
You should let them know that it’s an non-emergency upon calling.
911 = life or limb emergency.
But have you considered that my neighbors are being pretty loud, and I would really like some police to go knock on their door and tell them to be quiet?
Legally you’re right. But I think it sort of ignores the spirit of what that free speech should be and the reality it actually exists in. There are corporations that have reached a level of size and power comparable to governments. Plus the government in general is an arm of the capitalist class it represents. Most of the speech that happens today is on these privately owned services. To allow those large corporations to act as censors, it makes the protections on speech from government interference largely moot. Generalizing more, the way I put it is in America, you have freedom… if you can afford it. Sure, nobody is able to stop you from saying what you want to say. But you get to say it to a handful of people you know while a rich person gets to say it to millions of people through media channels and advertising. Sure everyone gets one vote, but if you’re rich you can influence a lot more than one vote (and you can probably buy more than one vote of influence with whoever wins.) You may have the right to an abortion, but if you’re poor you might not have the means to actually do it. People have the legal right to due process, but despite that, tons of cases end in plea deals or settlements because people don’t have the means to be adequately represented in a legal case. When the US legally abolished (most) slavery, many of the freed slaves ended up as share croppers, not much better off or free than they were before because they didn’t have the material means to exercise that freedom. Later, the US passed anti-discrimination laws. No more barring black people from living in some towns/neighborhoods. But despite that, the area I grew up in was still heavily segregated. Legal freedoms don’t mean much if you don’t have the economic freedom to exercise them.
Now, there’s clearly a line. It seems obvious that say, if you had some private chat room it would be fine to kick people out of it for whatever reason. And at the extreme end we have these massive platforms acting which perform the role of a public service but in the hands of private interests. There I think there should be limits on what censorship they should be able to do. So where do you make the cutoff along that spectrum? Idk. I feel like a Lemmy instance is probably closer to a private chatroom than a social media corporation. They’re small, they’re not run for profit, and they’re not engaged in any anti-competitive behavior. There’s not that much stopping someone from moving to another instance or even making their own.
I think the issue is, there IS NO major Lemmy instance that IS us based. So Americans just sort of clump where the other Americans are. Then, that sets the tone for where we are. Everybody has a us centric experience, and so it becomes well known that Lemmy.World is a us based instance…even if it’s not true.
So now all of it’s users are behaving in a manner which lines up with their own local culture, in this case America, and have no clue which other nations laws apply, or what those laws even are.
You could tell me that Germany has a law that every 300th meal has to be sausage and schnitzel. I would be doubtful that you’re telling the truth, but I’d have no leg to stand on to dispute.
So you say “Go to the american instance then!!!” And to that I say “It doesn’t exist. Or if it does exist it’s too small to notice.”
Seems like a gap in the market. Lemmy.us?
I’ve posting this a lot lately but
If you want a US based-instance
- https://discuss.online/ blocks hexbear and lemmygrad
- https://lemmy.today/ does not block anyone
See also this post: https://discuss.online/post/14151634
I would argue that it’s certainly not clear. That’s probably part of the problem.
How is this not clear?
From https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/
Our Governing Laws
The website and the agreement will be governed by and construed per the laws of the following countries and/or states:
The Netherlands
Republic of Finland
Federal Republic of GermanyIf people are looking for US-based instances, there is https://discuss.online/
That’s at pretty much the very bottom of the TOS and given the number of people who skim or don’t even read TOS and EULA’s (and the number of jurisdictions that have ruled they aren’t a binding agreement), I’d say something directly on the sign up page is warranted. Additionally this information is not anywhere that I can find on any sidebar or about section.
People don’t often “look” for instances specific to their locale when joining Lemmy. That’s a lot of the reason this instance is so large. I would wager that most people who are users of this instance do not know that this instance is based in Scandinavia (and Germany). I bet most of them are also unfamiliar with the laws and regulations of those countries as well.
something directly on the sign up page is warranted.
The sign up page literally asks people to write "I agree to the TOS” in the form, with a link to the ToS
People don’t often “look” for instances specific to their locale when joining Lemmy.
Not so sure, lemmy.ca, feddit.org, sopuli.xyz, aussie.zone and midwest.social are in the top 20 of most active instances. If you go top 30, you find feddit.nl, feddit.uk and jlai.lu
Don’t skip the bit about how many people often do not read the TOS or EULA. That’s important to what I am saying. I was literally told when asking about Lemmy instances that lemmy.world was THE recommendation for instances specifically because it was so large and active as a result. Just because there are other instances where the users are local to the locale of the instance doesn’t necessarily undermine my point since what we’re talking about is lemmy.world specifically.
And anything with a .uk or similar is more likely to be identified at first glance as being for that locale which means more of the users would naturally gravitate towards it. Like it or not lemmy.world is a jumping off point for lots of users, plenty of whom move on to other instances (some of which may be an instance more local to them).
Don’t skip the bit about how many people often do not read the TOS or EULA. That’s important to what I am saying.
The vast majority of the people on LW probably do not care. We see a lot of people announcing they are changing instances in this thread, but I would be surprised to see more than a few dozens actually do it, inertia is a thing, and a good portion of the people seem to think the changes are reasonable.
I was literally told when asking about Lemmy instances that lemmy.world was THE recommendation for instances specifically because it was so large and active as a result.
You created your account in 2023, when LW was a few weeks old, as well as most of the other instances. There was no way for people to know that this kind of issues would arise, at the time the ToS probably didn’t even exist.
Recommendations nowadays usually suggest Lemm.ee or discuss.online, as LW has become too large, and every decision they make have an impact on Lemmy as a whole, such as this one.
Like it or not lemmy.world is a jumping off point for lots of users, plenty of whom move on to other instances (some of which may be an instance more local to them).
But if they move to another instance, then the LW rules don’t apply to them anymore, so no need to change the sign up page?
But if they move to another instance, then the LW rules don’t apply to them anymore, so no need to change the sign up page?<<
You said it yourself. Inertia is a thing. Some people move on. Some people don’t and probably won’t.
Clarity is important if we’re talking about enforcing a TOS to comply with the law. Especially when the average Lemmy instance owner doesn’t just have a team of lawyers on retainer.
The point I’m making though is a lot of people (perhaps myself included) wouldn’t have come to lemmy.world at all if they had known that they’d be beholden to laws they had never even heard of and aren’t normally subject to in their daily lives.
I don’t think what I’m suggesting (I’m not pushing to enact the stuff I suggested) is all that unreasonable. But of course it’s not up to me, and probably not even up to the majority of Lemmy.world users.
But the .world part of the name is something of a misnomer if you consider how confusing it may be to new users, especially if this is their first foray into the fediverse.
I haven’t decided it’s worth the time to get another instance to move to and transfer everything I have set up over to that new instance.
Though this wasn’t handled the way I would have personally handled it, I’m largely not too bothered about the changes because I’m unlikely to ever run afoul of them.
Even though I absolutely believe that karma is a thing, and you get out of the world what you put into it, at the end of the day I’m not on Lemmy (or any other platforms) to advocate for the death of people. Probably the closest I have ever gotten is saying something like “eat the rich” and that’s meant to be taken as having a healthy dose of sarcasm.
I’m confused, what does free speech have to do with where the instance is based? This is the internet, what country is going to extradite a US citizen for making a comment on a defederated social platform?
The overreach is insane.
I don’t know anything about Dutch or Finnish laws, but I’ve seen many recent articles about people arrested in Germany for their social media posts that were considered hateful or violent (which is frankly a culture shock to me as an American), so I can see why some of the posts on Lemmy in the past week would be concerning.
https://lemmy.world/comment/13870047
If you are a US citizen and would prefer a US-based instance, there is
- https://discuss.online/ which blocks hexbear and lemmygrad
- https://lemmy.today/ which does not block any instance
Will check them out, just want to make sure they’re not like what the askthedonald became where it’s another echo chamber. I like perspective, but I loathe the virtue padded safe spaces.
They are only instances, you would still visit your usual communities. Their might be a change should anyone want to create a “AskUS” community there, but that’s not the case yet
I think this is a good time to remind everyone that the strength of federated social media (and a big reason why we’re all here) is that no private company or country’s laws can have total control over the fediverse.
Everyone who runs an instance is going to have a different risk-tolerance for legal issues however, and I can’t fault anyone for making a judgment call that they feel best protects the server and their users. I don’t know anything about Dutch or Finnish laws, but I’ve seen many recent articles about people arrested in Germany for their social media posts that were considered hateful or violent (which is frankly a culture shock to me as an American), so I can see why some of the posts on Lemmy in the past week would be concerning.
In my interactions with the .World admins, I’ve seen nothing but people trying to run an instance in the most fair and neutral way they can, and I personally trust them to make the hard calls when they come up. That being said, if you’re frustrated with the legal concerns of a host’s country or have had a run-in with a mod that upset you, it only strengthens the fediverse if you spread out or create similar communities elsewhere.
people arrested in Germany for their social media posts that were considered hateful or violent (which is frankly a culture shock to me as an American)
Might want to get used to the idea come 2025…
Midwest.social is located in the US and is also a leftist instance. However, we don’t host many large comms ourselves.
Well, your instance also doesn’t, as of my last check in mid August, accept new accounts, sooo…
Oops, I didn’t realize that! Sorry!
Yeah, it was a real bummer for me. Felt like a match made in heaven, but I was too late to the party. :/
Sounds like you got banned for doing what is banned here.
It’s not me
Yeah, if you run an instance, and you decide this is a hobby for you not your main job and you’re also not a lawyer and hence you just go “Sorry, all denied” then honestly, more power to you. It’s a hobby, not a job. If anybody disagrees, they have just volunteered to be the named person of legal representation for this instance, tbh.
Really? Jury nullification???
Glad I didn’t join your instance because that is fucking insane.
Delay deny depose :3
People in the US have justifiable revulsion to its rapacious healthcare system leading to outright un-aliving of a large segment of the population. One might argue that it’s a silent genocide of the underprivileged. This incident has highlighted that sentiment in a way that may effect real change and in a way his untimely demise may lead to positive health outcomes. Suppressing the expression of that anger could have the opposite outcome.
Personally my big takeaway from the comments here is that either many people think administrating a large internet platform is a joke and happens on its own and you don’t find 10+ legal notices in the PO box every week, or that - and I’ve read about this before - reading comprehension in the english-speaking world has fallen dramatically in recent years and people are genuinely unable to read paragraphs of text of non-trivial content and/or shifting subjects within same sentences, something you learn around 6th grade in school but sadly rarely need after school in modern times.
Translation: move instances
Its a good idea to give them competitors anyways.
Anyone who wants The Adjuster to be imprisoned is supporting violence against him. Imprisonment is a violent act. Drag thinks the Lemmy.world admins should make sure to remove any comments advocating imprisonment.
Drag sounds like a hoopy frood, as does The Adjuster. Ford agrees
Zerg sides with Drag on this.
Just because something is legal, it’s not necessarily ethical and vice versa.
“Adjustment” is creating accountability by other means.Did you refer to yourself in the third person?
Imprisonment is meant to be a means of reducing possible harm and a means of reform, but if you disagree with that then you should take it up with the legislators in the USA and not the website admins.
Oh, sorry, are you saying the use of guns is justified and nonviolent if the intention is to reduce further violence?
Drag wonders if this principle could be applied to any recent events…
I guess we’ll just see how much or how little good comes of all this very soon, won’t we?
Best possible case scenario: it’s still legal to rip people off and privatize healthcare, so that just keeps happening but at least we get to feel good about punishing that one guy’s family for his crimes.
Worst case scenario: A very large number of copycat killers (secretly funded by overseas autocrats) drag Taylor Swift across pavement, Bill Gates burns alive in his home, and both of their heirs invest everything into fossil fuels. Meanwhile, the new US Administration views the situation as worthy of enforcing martial law and deploys the military on its own people. Congress is reluctant at first, but it could always be one of them killed by a vigilante next.
But most likely scenario is still that nothing has changed, nothing will
If you believe that his family was punished, then do you believe that the death penalty as used by the justice system is also a punishment on those people’s families? Because kin punishment is generally considered a human rights violation, and is illegal in the US as far as I’m aware.
Are you comparing the justice system to vigilante’s killing unarmed civillians in the street as equals?
Let me tell you the difference. You could have voted to change the laws, voted in the people who selected the judges, when you’re arrested it’s the result of choices made by every eligible american citizen, in some states including felons.
You don’t get to choose if a guy who shoots you next week. You don’t get to state your case before a jury. It’s a system where the people most willing and able to commit harm are kings.
We’ve tried the whole voting thing for 40 years now. We’ve tried the whole justice system thing for 40 years now.
It doesn’t work. Make peaceful change impossible and violent revolution becomes inevitable. Hope this CEO is just the first to fall.
Our entire system is corrupt from top to bottom and there’s no more playing nice.
The USA hasn’t tried shit, thats why we’re in this mess.
Obamacare was originally a single payer bill which was defeated in the senate.
Since then we elected more pure privatization officials. We gave the Biden admin a conservative congress and SCOTUS.
We had a big shiny lever that said (STOP KILLING SICK PEOPLE) and we refused to pull it for over a decade.
kinda defeating yout own point here:
the guy made the concious decision to ruin strangers lives for nothing but his personal greed every single day.
that was HIS choice, HIS action, HIS decision.
well…actions tend to have consequences.
this was a direct consequence of actions the CEO willingly made, repeatedly.
nobody forced him to. nobody compelled him to.
so yeah, he DID choose exactly this, no question about it.
the hypothetical voter in your example indirectly chooses his judgement, this CEO chose directly, all by himself.
so as you can see: the CEO very much DID vote for his fate. he voted every single day working for UHC.
your comment is the absolutely highest form of hypocrisy.
And you should have voted against privatized healthcare like 16 years ago and every time since, but the majority keeps choosing self harm and anybody loyal to the country has to deal with it.
There is no hipocrisy here. I think people who choose to be harmed have to deal with it, that people don’t get to kill outside of the confines of the law.
I believe Democracy is the best system for mankind, through and through, with all of its flaws.
He was not civilian, he was a CEO a member of the ruling class. He wasn’t some working class everyman, he was a profiteer of medical malpractice. He was the grim reaper and could decide arbitrarily every day whether people lived or died. The more he choose for them to die the more money he made.
He had rights to a trial before execution, even the worst of us do. I don’t mourn him, but the killer should just surrender themselves and ask the judge and jury for lienency.
Nobody is going after Taylor swift you can calm down. Bill Gates is also an unlikely target.
Neither of those people bring up rage in people. They’re not murdering people’s families for profit by denying and delaying care.
You wanna know who killed my father? The healthcare industry. The insurance companies and the rehab facility (physical, not drug, not that it matters) decided to traffic him and hold him hostage so they could collect his insurance money while refusing to provide care and refusing to send him to the hospital when he needed more intense care. These people are fucking ghouls and they deserve the full wrath of the most heavily armed population on earth.
We’re not exactly deciding who lives or dies as a group, here. It could be literally anybody next and your opinion doesn’t matter.
I can tell you if there’s gonna be another assasination it’s gonna be someone similar to the CEO who just got offed. Universally hated and actively killing people through administrative means.
Again, we don’t get to pick.
That other health insurance company already walked back their policy about not covering anaesthetic for the whole of a surgery. Muad’dib has already improved the world.
TBH it’d be hard to organize a board meeting, write up, and sign off on changes like that in like a day so there is a chance that was coincidental timing. You could just as easily say their reversal was the result of the Governor calling them out on it.
well you posed an outlandish scenario as your worst case, yet used a pretty moderate one as your best possible case. i think there is some bias there.
Yeah I really layed it on thick with the WORST outcome. Don’t see any issue at all with the best case, though.
surely the best possible outcome is all CEOs learn their lesson and everybody lives happily ever after?
Even if they do exactly that, there is always going to be somebody new who comes along and sees profit to be made. We don’t have to wait for them to learn, we can just change the laws and reform healthcare.
You seem to have completely failed to understand why exactly people are so supportive of the killer. He didn’t just murder a random stranger. It wasn’t just some guy. He was among the most evil people in America. A man who profited off of denying Healthcare to dying children. Directly. He was an evil cretin. A vile capitalist.
I understand 100%, its really simple to work out. Glad that CEO is dead, fuck em.
Problem is: there should be a price to pay for one of us to kill another illegally. We are not capable of making decisions like that alone, it needed to be done via politics and the courts.
I’m sure if they turn themselves in they will probably be treated very amicably by the jury.
Deposing healthcare CEOs is harm reduction that’s far more useful than prison.
Lol no, prison for the shooter. He should turn himself in.
The shooter should go down the list of health insurance CEOs one by one until we get single payer by force.
Zero fucks given fuck these mass murdering wealthy off our deaths pieces of shit.
and a means of reform
In the USA? Lmao
No, just in general. The entire concept of imprisonment. Whether it’s an ideal reality or a horrific dystopia, there has gotta be a place to put somebody when they’re not safe to roam free.
Muad’dib is perfectly safe to roam free.
Idk what that is and have no intention to look it up.
Muad’dib. The Adjuster. The Grin Reaper. The DDDer. The CEO Assassin. Lissan Al Gaib. The Healthcare Provider. Desmond Miles. The Equaliser. Mr Richeater. John Wick. Hero.
I also did not ask.
7 paragraphs of water. Did you want to convey your point or just to write something?
We will still consider suggestions of jury nullification for crimes that have not (yet) happened as advocation for violence, which is violating our terms of service.
?? So, discussing jury nullification by itself, or suggesting ‘crimes that have not yet happened’ - itself is not a violation (i.e. someone should disturb the peace) but suggesting that “someone should disturb the peace and everyone on the jury, should they be prosecuted, should advocate for jury nullification” is a violation of the ToS?
I’m not understanding that part.
Specifically where it relates to violent crime.
Essentially it is supposed to make statements like the following a rule violation:
“If someone murdered [fictional person] they would totally get acquitted because any jury would just nullify the charges.”
While the following sentence would not be a violation of TOS:
“The murderer of UHC CEO Brian Thompson should get acquitted via Jury Nullification because [reasons] and this is super dope.”
The first example could be read as a call to violence, while the 2nd is not calling for a crime.
As I understand it “All future jurors in money laundring cases should nullify, because tax evasion is… like… super cool” would also be legal, because money laundring is not a violent crime.
Mods could still remove it though, not for instance ToS but community rules.
They could remove it by flip of a coin
True… then it could be appealed to admins I suppose. Someone could make an entire community dedicated to coin flipping, where that is the sole means of deciding whether posts get to stay or not. So long as no instance rules are violated, it’s all good.
Actually that would be funny, with like, a webcam of a little coin flipper bot.
Anyway I was highlighting a core feature of the fediverse…mods and especially admins are beholden to noone. All standards are a courtesy
Oh absolutely (and it wasn’t me who downvoted you btw, in fact I’m upvoting both here bc relevance). I would argue that there’s a social contract, regardless of money, to the people who contribute to making an instance what it truly is - e.g. spez did not “own” all of Reddit content. Though at the end of the day, don’t the admins have far more involvement in the matter than a mere lurker, and a mod perhaps the most of all, since they donate their blood sweat and tears into the thing that they build (or at least help build, as in curate) daily?
So if people don’t like an instance then move, and same with communities. I blocked [email protected] months ago and subscribed to [email protected] instead. The world is what we make it.
Not being combative but I actually believe there’s zero social contact… It’s an illusion of privilege. The fact that we even get to quibble about mod / admin behavior is at their whim. Now, sure, the ultimate conclusion could be that everyone leaves and they’re a mod of no one, but there’s a whole lot of sausage to be made between here and “server is empty”
money laundring is not a violent crime.
So it sounds like the laws prohibit advocating blue collar crime, but advocating white collar crime is fine.
That’s not what blue collar/white collar crime is
Removed by mod
Does this discussion really require ableist slurs?
Like, people are arguing about jury nullification when slurs are just flying around from .world users… What’s judicial process matter at that point?
suggesting ‘crimes that have not yet happened’ - itself is not a violation
this was already covered. this is not a new change. if you write “someone should kill person XYZ” this is clearly a call for murder that we do not tolerate here. discussing jury nullification in the same context where murder or other violent crimes are suggested is what was clarified to be subject for moderator action.
It’s generally better to use generalized statements
Like “Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives”
That’s just a historical fact
How’s this one?
“Thousands of families are crying tears of joy thanks to The Adjuster, who was wrong to save all those lives and improve society.”
K bye.
