Well seeing as we:
- Call officers who hide as “undercover agents” but we call them in other countries “secret police” and
- We have police who hide in unmarked cars
- Both parties love cops more than its own citizens, increasing funds for cops than any regulation on them. One even has a cop as a VP.
- Cops aren’t required to know the laws they arrest you for
- “Innocent until proven guilty” is often a farce when you’re any form of minority, where people are killed on death row for crimes they never committed
- Cops are paid more for militarization than teachers and social programs who prevent future criminals
- Cops can shot anyone for any reason with a rare chance of even being punished for it by leaving to join a different police force
- The NSA, FBI, and CIA know more of its citizens than neighbors know each other, despite it being illegal.
- Not even getting into how cops often crack down on citizens’ movements and protests, especially those of BIPOC and Queer.
I’m going to go with “Since at least 2001, way longer if you’re any form of minority.” China learns from the Americans, like Nazi Germany did from our treatment of its citizens.
White Nationalists will tell you that all this is to protect you from the evil foreigners, and it will magically go away as soon as we’ve “won”.
They’ll also tell you the Deep State has been overrun by (((communists))) and you can’t trust the government to do anything right. That’s why they need supreme executive power to clean the swamp.
Whichever way you turn, the answer to the current moment is always “more bigger deadlier cops”.
China learns from the Americans, like Nazi Germany did from our treatment of its citizens.
The Red-Baiting is a big part of what makes our national security state such a cancerous mass. We have to become China to beat China. And we need to believe China is the worst thing we can possibly think of (Nazis), when our modern police/military state has already surpassed 1930s Germany by leaps and bounds.
So long as Americans are convinced that every other foreign country is either a crime ridden hell-hole or an open-air prison (or, paradoxically, both at once), we’ll continue to tolerate further erosion of civil liberties in hopes of relieving anxiety that the police state exists to impose on us.
Rethinking the war on drugs would be a serious step to change a lot of this.
They’ll let us all die before they ever consider that though.
Nixon’s War on Drugs was always intended as a tool to crush PoC and “hippie” counterculture revolutionaries.
Now it’s an excuse to harass and cage migrants, too.
when our modern police/military state has already surpassed 1930s Germany by leaps and bounds
This thread man… I don’t think you guys have much of an idea how bad Nazi Germany was. If you said stuff like this on the street over here in 1934 you’d end up in a concentration camp. Hans and Sophie Scholl were guillotined for distributing leaflets for fucks sake.
Call officers who hide as “undercover agents” but we call them in other countries “secret police” and
Holy shit dude, secret police and undercover pigs are not the same. Not that I harbor any sympathies for the pigs, but at least you live in a nation where people don’t just get disappeared. The Stasi and the Gestapo… those guys would laugh at your police. They could black bag you and noone would ever know what happened to you… you’d just disappear, no courts, no lawyers, no way to find out… just poof, gone in the night… Shit, the SRB alone killed half a million people in Uganda.
The Mississippi SovCom was a secret police and under Hoover the FBI could be called a secret police, but the mere fact that you can express this opinion here and now without fearing repercussions is a testament to how much you do not live under the thump of a secret police.
You’re spot on on the rest of your points, but this one error undermines your argument, don’t make it.
My bad, I meant the CIA blacksites that can detain citizens for no reason, the vans that kidnapped protestors during the BLM movement, and that the supreme court has ruled that of you’re near a border, you don’t have rights.
Hell, the Chicago PD had a blacksite modeled after CIA blacksites, called Homan Square. More than 7,000 people were detained there, and only 68 of them were ever allowed access to an attorney.
Yep. American police are on par with USSR, East Germany, and China. We just think we’re better because our flags are red white and blue, not red and gold.
Wtf is even loitering? For some reason it reminds me of Skyrim guards going “No lollygagging”. Fucking made up sounding words.
“stand or wait around without apparent purpose”
In other words: please do not exist in this vicinity.
Are you serious? It’s illegal to just exist outdoors in the US? I think you’re serious but that’s just too comical to be real. Enjoying the sunset; straight to jail. Like what?
American freedom is the freedom to oppress people on your property. It’s individualist freedom not collectivist freedom
Land of the free… whoever told you that is your enemy - RATM
Not generally, as others have mentioned, this is probably owned by the CVS and they want to discourage people from hanging around their store if they have no business with the store.
To the extent it is illegal, then it’s in the domain of “trespassing” where the private property owner can decide you are no longer welcome. So if CVS “owns” that area, it may call on you for trespassing.
But first a CVS employee would have to tell you to leave. It’s only trespassing if you don’t leave after you’re asked to, right?
This is the shit about the US I will never understand.
It’s about racism.
Generally this stuff exists either due to old racist laws. It was illegal to not be working in reconstruction South, and white former slave owners could offer low paying jobs to former slaves. If the former slaves refused, they could be arrested for not having jobs, and due to the exception on prisoners being slaves, they could be enslaved again legally.
Vagrancy and loitering were banned in what’s called the “black codes”.
It’s like jaywalking on an empty street or speeding 5 miles over the limit, they don’t enforce it unless they want to use the law to harass someone.
Jaywalking is another thing I first heard of like a month or so ago that sounds both ridiculous as a law and as a word.
Don’t the US have a range that your speed can be in? Like here you can be a bit over that’s within the margin of error of your speedometer (Can’t remember how much exactly since I haven’t driven a car in like 2 decades)
No, or at least not in the state I’m from. They have penalties in the statutes for 1-5 miles per hour over. Usually the cop or traffic court judge will use discretion to ignore tickets and penalties in such minor cases, but when you don’t codify that it can lead to more nefarious reasons for enforcing it.
Funny how that whatever they are yelling at you for isn’t even loitering. Give them the finger and keep on doing whatever you are doing.
New York Consolidated Laws, Penal Law - PEN § 240.35 Loitering
Current as of January 01, 2021 | Updated by FindLaw Staff
A person is guilty of loitering when he:
1. Repealed by L.2010, c. 232, § 1, eff. July 30, 2010.
2. Loiters or remains in a public place for the purpose of gambling with cards, dice or other gambling paraphernalia; or
3. Repealed by L.2010, c. 232, § 1, eff. July 30, 2010.
4. Being masked or in any manner disguised by unusual or unnatural attire or facial alteration, loiters, remains or congregates in a public place with other persons so masked or disguised, or knowingly permits or aids persons so masked or disguised to congregate in a public place; except that such conduct is not unlawful when it occurs in connection with a masquerade party or like entertainment if, when such entertainment is held in a city which has promulgated regulations in connection with such affairs, permission is first obtained from the police or other appropriate authorities; or
5. Loiters or remains in or about school grounds, a college or university building or grounds or a children’s overnight camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law or a summer day camp as defined in section one thousand three hundred ninety-two of the public health law, or loiters, remains in or enters a school bus as defined in section one hundred forty-two of the vehicle and traffic law, not having any reason or relationship involving custody of or responsibility for a pupil or student, or any other specific, legitimate reason for being there, and not having written permission from anyone authorized to grant the same or loiters or remains in or about such children’s overnight camp or summer day camp in violation of conspicuously posted rules or regulations governing entry and use thereof; or
6. Loiters or remains in any transportation facility, unless specifically authorized to do so, for the purpose of soliciting or engaging in any business, trade or commercial transactions involving the sale of merchandise or services, or for the purpose of entertaining persons by singing, dancing or playing any musical instrument; or
7. Repealed by L.2010, c. 232, § 1, eff. July 30, 2010.
Loitering is a violation.
Are you quoting new York laws concerning a DC incident?
You’re totally right. Dunno why my brain went there thinking it was NYC. My bad.
they both got c in em you good fam 👍
So to clarify:
1: N/A
2: Gambling on the street
3: N/A
4: Masking up and hanging out, especially in a group, for potentially nefarious purposes
5: Hanging out in or around a school you have no business being at or in.
6: Selling shit on public transportation or transportation hubs.
With the exception of the mask thing (which should be repealed for health purposes. We should encourage people to mask up when they are sick, COVID or not), that all seems fairly reasonable, and not at all what is happening in the picture. Unless OP is wearing a mask, I suppose.
In general, loitering is hanging out “with intent to commit a crime.” If you aren’t planning to commit a crime, you aren’t loitering.
On paper yes, to any cop that feels like hassling you, strong ehh.
How important is the law to the police? Will it matter that what you’re doing is legal?
Being by no means familiar with legalese, I am amused that at least one of those seems to be “a person is guilty of loitering if they loiter.” (Apologies in advance if that’s a complete misread.)
I’ve spent a lot of time servicing IT for all kinds of businesses in DC, and this is 100% a CVS owned device. They don’t refer to it as Come Visit Satan for no reason.
That’s a lot of expensive equipment in sledgehammer range.
Super soaker full of paint.
Or my favorite, black trash bag on a stick, because you can fasten the bag around the camera without actually damaging it, if youre concerned about getting caught and sued for damaged
And then, when the camera is covered, a friend can come by with a sledgehammer. Edit: while you are seen hanging out on some other camera.
Red Faction: Guerilla moment
You have a long sledgehammer
😉
Who doesn’t? Some can be almost 3 feet long. Pair that with being 6ft, and you could probably hit the camera. If not, just throw the sledgehammer like a javelin.
Standing on something is also viable
You’re a lot stronger than I am of you can throw a sledgehammer like a spear! Good for you!
With a camera mounted to it…
Drop me the address… I’ll go loiter next time I am in the city.
6 Dupont Cir NW, Washington, DC 20036
Don’t see what this has to do with police. CVS put that up to scare people away, just like they put up that sign that clearly didn’t work.
Policing is not just limited to police. Unfortunately, this is an example of quite literal corporate overlording. Soon they will be one in the same, a manifestation of the military-industrial complex, where corporations happily surveil in support of and in tandem with law enforcement.
As a reformed loiterer, I welcome our new Police, Inc. overlords. (/s)
There’s a CVS near me with an obnoxious floodlight stand thing with speakers playing some message about how this parking lot is under surveillance. Nothing else like it in the area.
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Ah yes…chess hooligans. The bane of any civilized society.
If I knew how to play chess I’d totally print myself a CHESS HOOLIGAN tee right now
The fun thing with hooligans is that you don’t actually need to have a clue - just yell loud enough and lash out at the other side. I assure you, most hooligans out there couldn’t play their respective games either. They’d just get pissed at the ref for calling their foul play.
What the fuck, why can he do that? Oh so that’s a thing now, great, whatever. What do you mean, illegal? I just did the exact same thing, why can he do it and I can’t? This is bullshit, the game is rigged. Yeah, sure go ahead, fucking disqualify me for being “combative”, I’m just telling you your own fucking rules don’t make sense!
There, all you need to be a chess hooligan.
Not to loiter? Is it illegal?
Just standing around on public property can’t be made illegal constitutionally. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t no loitering laws everywhere, and they are enforced, because it is very unlikely they will be taken through the court system over it.
This sounds worse than Russia. Even Russia doesn’t have it. And I’m glad.
Also please fix. Don’t be worse than Russia under Putinism.
Well there is a sign
Great. Is there a law?
Yes.
Anyone have any evidence of the security cameras doing this? I can’t find any, but I don’t have much time to dig.
There’s security cameras where have speakers to state “Hi, you’re being recorded.” due to the fact that if a private property wishes to record the public who enter, they must be given notice for consent in my state, as it’s a two party consent system. Being on the property with the notice is considered consent.
I don’t see why they couldn’t make systems that state “You’re being watched, do not loiter.”
loiter, not litter
Ah, my autocorrect flubbed that. Thank you.
It was a disingenuous post. They compared a CVS security camera to mainland China. This is a leading question and shouldn’t be posted by a journalist. She is leading the reader into thinking this is a question of US surveillance vs CCP surveillance, but it isn’t. It’s just some shitty corporate choice.
It’s not like that corporations have historically been bedfellows with the American Government. Never heard of PRISM myself. It’s also not like local and state officials can ask for the recordings to be handed over to them.
Corporations watching the public is not better than when governments do it. Personally I like my right to exist without people constantly watching me, and I don’t act like it’s better if the people watching me wave a country’s flag or a corprate logo.
I’m not saying you should waive your right to privacy. I’m right there with you. I just want to make sure we fight this bullshit with facts and not clickbait. There is plenty of reason to fight surveillance without resorting to inflating the truth.
That, and the corporation cannot compel you not to “loiter” on the sidewalk in what is clearly a downtown area, which is therefore not their property and is a public right-of-way. Best they can do is chuck you out the front doors.
I agree that corporate v. state actions are definitely important to distinguish, but in the US, corporate malfeasance is left untouched and unpunished by the state so often that the line between the two is pretty damn blurry.
*Also, thinking on it a bit more, it’s not like the surveillance is inaccessible to the state, either. If cops subpoena the footage, or even just ask for it, they’ll almost certainly get it from a corporation. So this is more so just a layer of obfuscation from direct state surveillance, with the added nuisance of harassing people for standing on the sidewalk for “too long”.
All countries are occupied countries. We’re all under the occupation of the oligarchy.
We just need to stop voting for more oligarchy.
They’ve made that impossible in the US… Not sure how it’s looking in other countries
I’m occupying my country too
Something else to ignore.
Not as bad as China yet, but getting there. That’s the influence of a concerted global authoritarian campaign for you.
This particular CVS has had aggressive panhandlers in front of it for years. There’s also one of those high pitched squeal sound devices nearby. Not saying it’s right, but I’m not surprised they installed this.
