Probably more direct than I would have been but good post, glad you’ve argued with people on the internet so I don’t have to.
A mixture of slippery slope, a complete disregard for the weight of history and a lack of understanding of the difference between “law” and “justice” seem to be a recurring set of arguments when it comes to disagreeing with social justice issues.
I disagree with your political position, but I do agree with your stance on being disrespected.
I still feel like you should reply, but take the high road, continue to be respectful and address the points of disagreement. I want to see where this conversation goes.
"Your capacity to be offended, isn’t something that I or anyone else needs to respect. Your capacity to be offended isn’t something you should respect. In fact, it’s something you should be on your guard for, perhaps more than any other property of your mind.
This feeling can mislead you. If you care about justice (and you absolutely should) you should care about facts and the ability to discuss them openly. Justice requires contact with reality.
It simply isn’t the case, it cannot be the case, that the most pressing claims on our sense of justice need come from those who claim to be most offended by conversation itself."
In an ideal liberal democracy that’s been set up with agreement from all parties yes. But the aboriginals didn’t even get a vote on being colonised, nevermind Federation. They’ve essentially been under occupation for more than 200 years. The Voice is meant as a first step in resolving that conflict so we can move forward as a nation. Voice, Truth, Treaty. Even the racist yanks made treaties with their natives. Can we not even live up to that low bar?
I personally don’t think the Voice will be a permanent feature but I also don’t think me or my grandchildren will be around to see it abolished. There is multigenerational trauma that needs to be acknowledged and healed. That’s the Truth and Treaty bit btw. The Voice is meant to make sure the government of the day doesn’t forget those two things.
Not going to entertain slippery slopes. Other minorities consented to participate in the liberal democracy we established. See point 1 above.
See point made by @[email protected] about 200 years of oppression and attempted genocide.
The Voice will be permanent that can’t be abolished like all the previous groups. It’s still purely advisory so parliament could absolutely ignore it but they have to consider the optics of the thing. Because now the Voice will be visible. Hand to heart, how many people could name all the previous aboriginal bodies before this debate? I know I couldn’t.
The point is to not be purely performatory. Just adding a line in the Constitutions then patting ourselves on the back and calling it a job well done isn’t enough. So many organisations already do that today and it’s become nothing more than an empty ritual now. Do you notice all the “original custodian acknowledgements” uttered at the opening of every function? Adding a line to the Constitution would be just that.
The point is to have a symbol that is visible. To move forward to Truth and Treaty. I think that’s an important step to take to right the wrongs of the past so we can move forward together.
See point from @[email protected] about them being here first. Also see point 1 about not really having a choice of being part of our modern nation.
I’m not even aboriginal. My ancestors came from China during the gold rush. There are things I’d like to see redressed too but I haven’t had it as bad. They’re first in line, so to speak.
A lot of people have responded intelligently, but I’m going to respond like a dum-dum:
In a liberal democracy, everyone should be equal under the law, but this country was colonised. We could all just leave and come back later, or we could pay reparations. Otherwise, we’re basically stealing shit and saying “OK we’re starting liberal democracy… NOW”… wait (steal more stuff) “now”… I mean (steal more) now. Now for real! The Mabo ruling literally happened in the 90s. So much for Liberal Democracy.
The Voice does not exist to “fix Aboriginal problems”. It exists as a first step towards reconciliation, there will be other steps which will need more constitutional amendments. The “problem” is non-aboriginal people.
It’s not a “minority group”, it’s a dispossessed group due to colonisation. Yes, if you steal land and assets from “other minority groups” then maybe they would need recognition. This is consistent with other nations such as NZ.
Yes, white Australians definitely need to take responsibility for colonisation and its effects which are happening to this day. You should definitely feel for people who have had violence committed on them regardless of race.
Aboriginal advisory groups are often designed to fail and then shut down. It is an obvious problem for people who want to take things out of this country, sell it, and fuck off back to Britain. This one has constitutional power, so they won’t be able to do that. This will protect Australians.
It’s not “were here first” it’s “were colonised”. If China won a war and took over Australia, they would not just change the constitution to say “sucks to be you”, they’d have to make up some shit, if only to create some sort of consent. The Australian constitution basically says “the queen says we’re a country now”
Aboriginal people aren’t dickbags, they don’t want “real power”. They want recognition and reconciliation. They want to re-glue the history of this nation. Take a look at the Uluru statement from the heart. It is about subtlety, sharing, and growth, not about power and control.
Some people are bad because they are idiots, others are bad because they choose to ignore history, and some are bad because they want to engineer hurt to others just to help themselves. You take your pick.
Thought provoking post. I want to do everything possible to help address aboriginal issues. But I would have preferred they trial the voice for a couple of years first to see if it works and iron out any issues. Then if it’s a success, use that as evidence why it should be added to the constitution. It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
There’s been lots, either recognised or appointed by the government over the years.
And whenever they become inconvenient (publicly saying things the Government doesn’t want the public to hear), the Government of the day dismisses them.
The whole point here is to institute a body that can
Speak in parliament - which means whatever they say will be permanently a matter of record.
Not get shut down the moment they are inconvenient.
The Government of the day doesn’t have to do what The Voice says and the The Voice has no veto - but they do have to publicly acknowledge what has been said to them.
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Probably more direct than I would have been but good post, glad you’ve argued with people on the internet so I don’t have to.
A mixture of slippery slope, a complete disregard for the weight of history and a lack of understanding of the difference between “law” and “justice” seem to be a recurring set of arguments when it comes to disagreeing with social justice issues.
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I disagree with your political position, but I do agree with your stance on being disrespected.
I still feel like you should reply, but take the high road, continue to be respectful and address the points of disagreement. I want to see where this conversation goes.
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"Your capacity to be offended, isn’t something that I or anyone else needs to respect. Your capacity to be offended isn’t something you should respect. In fact, it’s something you should be on your guard for, perhaps more than any other property of your mind.
This feeling can mislead you. If you care about justice (and you absolutely should) you should care about facts and the ability to discuss them openly. Justice requires contact with reality.
It simply isn’t the case, it cannot be the case, that the most pressing claims on our sense of justice need come from those who claim to be most offended by conversation itself."
I’m not even aboriginal. My ancestors came from China during the gold rush. There are things I’d like to see redressed too but I haven’t had it as bad. They’re first in line, so to speak.
A lot of people have responded intelligently, but I’m going to respond like a dum-dum:
Thought provoking post. I want to do everything possible to help address aboriginal issues. But I would have preferred they trial the voice for a couple of years first to see if it works and iron out any issues. Then if it’s a success, use that as evidence why it should be added to the constitution. It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp2223/Quick_Guides/FormerAboriginalandTorresStraightIslanderRepresentativeBodies#:~:text=Previous Australian Government-appointed advisory,2019).
There’s been lots, either recognised or appointed by the government over the years.
And whenever they become inconvenient (publicly saying things the Government doesn’t want the public to hear), the Government of the day dismisses them.
The whole point here is to institute a body that can
The Government of the day doesn’t have to do what The Voice says and the The Voice has no veto - but they do have to publicly acknowledge what has been said to them.
That being said, I’ll still vote yes.
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