I’m probably going to regret this but I’m a glutton for punishment so here goes.
At this stage I have some real reservations on the “The Voice” on both practical and philosophical grounds.
In a liberal democracy, in principle everyone should be equal under the law, with no particular group being elevated in terms of representation above beyond anyone else, and certainly not on the basis of race. While it’s true government may make policy targeted at different groups, the voice is a bridge too far for me, in essence setting up a third chamber of parliament. And while the Voice cannot block legislation directly I could foresee it doing so indirectly. Depending on the issue this could be bad or a good thing. If one doesn’t agree with this and thinks it’s powerless, then why bother?
Having the voice as a permanent entity seems to suggest to me that the problems in some sections amongst the aboriginal community basically will continue on forever and hence putting the voice in the constitution, and I find this incredibly racist and insulting. Assuming they implemented the Voice and it did the trick and everything is all good in ten years time, I’m very skeptical a future referendum to disband it would ever fly. Once people get into power they will absolutely hang on to it.
If we setup a voice for this particular minority group, what’s next? an LGBTQIA+ voice, or some other minority voice? This could set a very unworkable precedence.
I’m sure this is going to be an unpopular point of view, but at some point people do need to take responsibility for their own choices. Not everything is someone else’s fault, and certainly not someone that’s been dead for 200 years, or even 50 years. I have more sympathy for kids with fucked up parents (I’ve been there), and early childhood intervention involving kids from difficult homes needs to be looked at in general regardless of race. But we don’t need the voice to point out this really patently obvious fact.
There have been many aboriginal advisory and policy groups in the past that were dismantled due to dysfunction and corruption. To this day there is still a vast bureaucracy dedicated to aboriginal issues. What exactly is happening to all of their advice and their reports and all of their policy work? This doesn’t seem to be fixing the problem. And for some reason we are supposed to believe, without any evidence, that another layer of bureaucracy is going to help? Parliament barely functions, let alone another bolted on elected body in the form of a voice. I’m skeptical, and I’d really want to see just a shred of empirical evidence it would make a difference. Let’s say for arguments sake it would work. Great. Form the body today through legislation and stop dicking around in the constitution. If it’s the best thing since sliced bread then it should meet with little resistance.
This voice just seems like a really ham fisted and convoluted way of trying to implemented aboriginal recognition in the constitution. If that’s the real goal, then there’s got to be a better way to do it. Some suggest slipping in a bit of text into the constitution saying “Aborigines were here first” or words that effect. To me it seems quite ridiculous since this is history and it seems pointless to restate the historical facts in the constitution. If it makes someone feel better I’m not against it but I’m not sure it would change how people feel in the long run, aboriginals included.
For aboriginals that are looking for real power (i.e. dedicated seats in parliament), this seems like a very watered down version of it. For aboriginals that only want aboriginals in this country and want everyone else to fuck off it’s most definitely unsatisfactory. The more I think about it the more I think the “The Voice” is the absolute worst of all worlds.
The way I see it is that we are all here in this country as a result of some type migration, even aboriginals. And each wave of migration has had impacts to the continent, Australian wildlife and it’s inhabitants, good and bad. And there is good and bad in all of humanity. The way this debate is going, whoever is on the other side is automatically deemed bad and whoever agrees is good. And perhaps this is the problem with the modern era overall.
in essence setting up a third chamber of parliament.
This is 100% false - the Voice is purely an advisory body. To equate it to the House of Representatives or the Senate is just a flat out lie.
And while the Voice cannot block legislation directly I could foresee it doing so indirectly.
How? It has no power.
If one doesn’t agree with this and thinks it’s powerless, then why bother?
Powerless is not the same as unnecessary. The Voice will be able to make more informed recommendations to government than any other advisory body when it comes to matters specific to Indigenous Australians. It is true that a potential lack of willingness from government, particularly conservative government, to actually listen to and work with the Voice is a concern. However there is no guarantee that this will be the case.
Having the voice as a permanent entity seems to suggest to me that the problems in some sections amongst the aboriginal community basically will continue on forever and hence putting the voice in the constitution, and I find this incredibly racist and insulting.
The Voice would not exist solely to solve the “problems” you’re referring to. Issues relating specifically to Indigenous Australians will continue to exist for as long as they exist. Having an advisory board that can offer better advice than anything that has come before it will always be important. It needs to be permanent so that it cannot be instantly wiped out by a conservative government, as has been emphasised repeatedly for months now.
Assuming they implemented the Voice and it did the trick and everything is all good in ten years time, I’m very skeptical a future referendum to disband it would ever fly.
Again - you completely misunderstand the point of the Voice. It is not a quick bandaid solution for social problems. There is absolutely no intention of abolishing it once it “does the trick”. This is why it is in the constitution.
Once people get into power they will absolutely hang on to it.
Once again - the Voice doesn’t have power.
If we setup a voice for this particular minority group, what’s next? an LGBTQIA+ voice, or some other minority voice? This could set a very unworkable precedence.
Come on dude, really? This is textbook slippery slope fallacy. Please be better than this if you are serious about engaging in discussion and debate.
I’m sure this is going to be an unpopular point of view, but at some point people do need to take responsibility for their own choices. Not everything is someone else’s fault, and certainly not someone that’s been dead for 200 years, or even 50 years. I have more sympathy for kids with fucked up parents (I’ve been there), and early childhood intervention involving kids from difficult homes needs to be looked at in general regardless of race. But we don’t need the voice to point out this really patently obvious fact.
I don’t even know where to start with this. You are completely ignorant of history if you think the social problems that exist today are a consequence of people not “taking responsibility for their actions”. The dispossession of land, genocide, incarceration, Stolen Generations - all of this is quite literally someone else’s fault. White people tried to wipe Indigenous Australians out, failed and have left a mountain of problems behind that cannot be solved solely by the individual choices of the victims.
There have been many aboriginal advisory and policy groups in the past that were dismantled due to dysfunction and corruption. To this day there is still a vast bureaucracy dedicated to aboriginal issues. What exactly is happening to all of their advice and their reports and all of their policy work? This doesn’t seem to be fixing the problem. And for some reason we are supposed to believe, without any evidence, that another layer of bureaucracy is going to help?
The Voice will be 100% run by Indigenous Australians. Its advice will therefore be superior to that of any other body. For example, the National Indigenous Australians Agency, which the conservative No campaign is attempting to use as evidence that the Voice is redundant, is only 22% Indigenous.
Let’s say for arguments sake it would work. Great. Form the body today through legislation and stop dicking around in the constitution.
It needs to be in the constitution so it isn’t immediately abolished by a future, most likely conservative, government. You literally just acknowledged yourself that many previous advisory and policy groups have been dismantled by government.
Some suggest slipping in a bit of text into the constitution saying “Aborigines were here first” or words that effect. To me it seems quite ridiculous since this is history and it seems pointless to restate the historical facts in the constitution. If it makes someone feel better I’m not against it but I’m not sure it would change how people feel in the long run, aboriginals included.
Are you Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander? No? Then no one cares about how you feel. This isn’t about you. Not everything is about you.
For aboriginals that are looking for real power (i.e. dedicated seats in parliament), this seems like a very watered down version of it.
The Voice is just one aspect of the Uluru Statement from the Heart. The majority of Indigenous Australians support it, but this does not mean that they are opposed to further additions and implementations. The Voice is a start, it is not the be all and end all.
For aboriginals that only want aboriginals in this country and want everyone else to fuck off it’s most definitely unsatisfactory.
If such people even exist they are an extreme, extreme minority. You are very closeted if you actually believe such a group is large enough to warrant a mention.
The way I see it is that we are all here in this country as a result of some type migration, even aboriginals.
Use your brain please. What is the key difference here? One group was here first. Non-Indigenous peoples displaced those who were here first. You are either extremely ignorant of Australia’s history, or just downright dishonest if you think we are all the same in this respect.
The way this debate is going, whoever is on the other side is automatically deemed bad and whoever agrees is good.
Welcome to politics. Welcome to our ever polarising society. This is not an excuse for you to play the victim. Your failed arguments and lies do not magically gain more weight because someone hurt your feelings.
Probably more direct than I would have been but good post, glad you’ve argued with people on the internet so I don’t have to.
A mixture of slippery slope, a complete disregard for the weight of history and a lack of understanding of the difference between “law” and “justice” seem to be a recurring set of arguments when it comes to disagreeing with social justice issues.
I figured no one else was going to do it because it was too long. On platforms like reddit and Lemmy you kinda have to shut this stuff down instantly or dumb people start upvoting it. Most are too lazy to actually read stuff properly or fact check it themselves so if they see a comment with a high number of upvotes they just blindly believe it has some value even when it is completely useless dribble like the one above. I also enjoy the bit where these losers rage reply or cry about their hurt feelings after you completely destroy their flimsy little soap box, so that’s extra motivation I guess.
I could respond to everything you said but you are not dscussing this in good faith. You are dismissive, rude and insulting. I will not engage with someone with an attitude.
It’s the Yes side that wants something and wants to change. It’s up to the Yes side to argue for they want convincingly and respectfully and you won’t get it by being rude.
You can keep responding if you like, but I would only hope you take my advice because it’s the best thing for the Yes side, or shoot yourself in the foot, it’s up to you.
I don’t care about changing your opinion dude. I have no fucking idea who you are or why you think you’re so important to me but you’re not not - sorry to break it to you. The emotional blackmail is not going to work; lose the main character syndrome.
The only reason I replied is to debunk your lies and correct your misconceptions. People like you always attempt to overwhelm everyone by just spewing out as much garbage as possible - this is literally the conservative No campaign’s tactic for the referendum.
If you actually want to defend your drivel for whatever reason, grow up and get a real argument. “You hurt my feelings” is not an argument; it is childish behaviour.
Whether you believe they are an idiot or not for having their views is irrelevant. The sidebar says to keep discussion civil and respectful, I find having to remind everyone of this is like being a primary school teacher
I disagree with your political position, but I do agree with your stance on being disrespected.
I still feel like you should reply, but take the high road, continue to be respectful and address the points of disagreement. I want to see where this conversation goes.
I’m not playing ball with somebody who calls me a liar, accuses me of playing the victim (which made no sense) and calls me an idiot.
This is the problem with some on the Yes side, who feel the need to engage in personal attacks, often on people they don’t even know. And there’s no doubt some of that on the No side too.
Ultimately I’ll have my say on referendum day, assuming I decide to take part. And what I don’t find persuasive is personal attacks from either side, and I imagine many others are the same.
"Your capacity to be offended, isn’t something that I or anyone else needs to respect. Your capacity to be offended isn’t something you should respect. In fact, it’s something you should be on your guard for, perhaps more than any other property of your mind.
This feeling can mislead you. If you care about justice (and you absolutely should) you should care about facts and the ability to discuss them openly. Justice requires contact with reality.
It simply isn’t the case, it cannot be the case, that the most pressing claims on our sense of justice need come from those who claim to be most offended by conversation itself."
In an ideal liberal democracy that’s been set up with agreement from all parties yes. But the aboriginals didn’t even get a vote on being colonised, nevermind Federation. They’ve essentially been under occupation for more than 200 years. The Voice is meant as a first step in resolving that conflict so we can move forward as a nation. Voice, Truth, Treaty. Even the racist yanks made treaties with their natives. Can we not even live up to that low bar?
I personally don’t think the Voice will be a permanent feature but I also don’t think me or my grandchildren will be around to see it abolished. There is multigenerational trauma that needs to be acknowledged and healed. That’s the Truth and Treaty bit btw. The Voice is meant to make sure the government of the day doesn’t forget those two things.
Not going to entertain slippery slopes. Other minorities consented to participate in the liberal democracy we established. See point 1 above.
See point made by @[email protected] about 200 years of oppression and attempted genocide.
The Voice will be permanent that can’t be abolished like all the previous groups. It’s still purely advisory so parliament could absolutely ignore it but they have to consider the optics of the thing. Because now the Voice will be visible. Hand to heart, how many people could name all the previous aboriginal bodies before this debate? I know I couldn’t.
The point is to not be purely performatory. Just adding a line in the Constitutions then patting ourselves on the back and calling it a job well done isn’t enough. So many organisations already do that today and it’s become nothing more than an empty ritual now. Do you notice all the “original custodian acknowledgements” uttered at the opening of every function? Adding a line to the Constitution would be just that.
The point is to have a symbol that is visible. To move forward to Truth and Treaty. I think that’s an important step to take to right the wrongs of the past so we can move forward together.
See point from @[email protected] about them being here first. Also see point 1 about not really having a choice of being part of our modern nation.
I’m not even aboriginal. My ancestors came from China during the gold rush. There are things I’d like to see redressed too but I haven’t had it as bad. They’re first in line, so to speak.
A lot of people have responded intelligently, but I’m going to respond like a dum-dum:
In a liberal democracy, everyone should be equal under the law, but this country was colonised. We could all just leave and come back later, or we could pay reparations. Otherwise, we’re basically stealing shit and saying “OK we’re starting liberal democracy… NOW”… wait (steal more stuff) “now”… I mean (steal more) now. Now for real! The Mabo ruling literally happened in the 90s. So much for Liberal Democracy.
The Voice does not exist to “fix Aboriginal problems”. It exists as a first step towards reconciliation, there will be other steps which will need more constitutional amendments. The “problem” is non-aboriginal people.
It’s not a “minority group”, it’s a dispossessed group due to colonisation. Yes, if you steal land and assets from “other minority groups” then maybe they would need recognition. This is consistent with other nations such as NZ.
Yes, white Australians definitely need to take responsibility for colonisation and its effects which are happening to this day. You should definitely feel for people who have had violence committed on them regardless of race.
Aboriginal advisory groups are often designed to fail and then shut down. It is an obvious problem for people who want to take things out of this country, sell it, and fuck off back to Britain. This one has constitutional power, so they won’t be able to do that. This will protect Australians.
It’s not “were here first” it’s “were colonised”. If China won a war and took over Australia, they would not just change the constitution to say “sucks to be you”, they’d have to make up some shit, if only to create some sort of consent. The Australian constitution basically says “the queen says we’re a country now”
Aboriginal people aren’t dickbags, they don’t want “real power”. They want recognition and reconciliation. They want to re-glue the history of this nation. Take a look at the Uluru statement from the heart. It is about subtlety, sharing, and growth, not about power and control.
Some people are bad because they are idiots, others are bad because they choose to ignore history, and some are bad because they want to engineer hurt to others just to help themselves. You take your pick.
Thought provoking post. I want to do everything possible to help address aboriginal issues. But I would have preferred they trial the voice for a couple of years first to see if it works and iron out any issues. Then if it’s a success, use that as evidence why it should be added to the constitution. It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
There’s been lots, either recognised or appointed by the government over the years.
And whenever they become inconvenient (publicly saying things the Government doesn’t want the public to hear), the Government of the day dismisses them.
The whole point here is to institute a body that can
Speak in parliament - which means whatever they say will be permanently a matter of record.
Not get shut down the moment they are inconvenient.
The Government of the day doesn’t have to do what The Voice says and the The Voice has no veto - but they do have to publicly acknowledge what has been said to them.
I’m probably going to regret this but I’m a glutton for punishment so here goes.
At this stage I have some real reservations on the “The Voice” on both practical and philosophical grounds.
In a liberal democracy, in principle everyone should be equal under the law, with no particular group being elevated in terms of representation above beyond anyone else, and certainly not on the basis of race. While it’s true government may make policy targeted at different groups, the voice is a bridge too far for me, in essence setting up a third chamber of parliament. And while the Voice cannot block legislation directly I could foresee it doing so indirectly. Depending on the issue this could be bad or a good thing. If one doesn’t agree with this and thinks it’s powerless, then why bother?
Having the voice as a permanent entity seems to suggest to me that the problems in some sections amongst the aboriginal community basically will continue on forever and hence putting the voice in the constitution, and I find this incredibly racist and insulting. Assuming they implemented the Voice and it did the trick and everything is all good in ten years time, I’m very skeptical a future referendum to disband it would ever fly. Once people get into power they will absolutely hang on to it.
If we setup a voice for this particular minority group, what’s next? an LGBTQIA+ voice, or some other minority voice? This could set a very unworkable precedence.
I’m sure this is going to be an unpopular point of view, but at some point people do need to take responsibility for their own choices. Not everything is someone else’s fault, and certainly not someone that’s been dead for 200 years, or even 50 years. I have more sympathy for kids with fucked up parents (I’ve been there), and early childhood intervention involving kids from difficult homes needs to be looked at in general regardless of race. But we don’t need the voice to point out this really patently obvious fact.
There have been many aboriginal advisory and policy groups in the past that were dismantled due to dysfunction and corruption. To this day there is still a vast bureaucracy dedicated to aboriginal issues. What exactly is happening to all of their advice and their reports and all of their policy work? This doesn’t seem to be fixing the problem. And for some reason we are supposed to believe, without any evidence, that another layer of bureaucracy is going to help? Parliament barely functions, let alone another bolted on elected body in the form of a voice. I’m skeptical, and I’d really want to see just a shred of empirical evidence it would make a difference. Let’s say for arguments sake it would work. Great. Form the body today through legislation and stop dicking around in the constitution. If it’s the best thing since sliced bread then it should meet with little resistance.
This voice just seems like a really ham fisted and convoluted way of trying to implemented aboriginal recognition in the constitution. If that’s the real goal, then there’s got to be a better way to do it. Some suggest slipping in a bit of text into the constitution saying “Aborigines were here first” or words that effect. To me it seems quite ridiculous since this is history and it seems pointless to restate the historical facts in the constitution. If it makes someone feel better I’m not against it but I’m not sure it would change how people feel in the long run, aboriginals included.
For aboriginals that are looking for real power (i.e. dedicated seats in parliament), this seems like a very watered down version of it. For aboriginals that only want aboriginals in this country and want everyone else to fuck off it’s most definitely unsatisfactory. The more I think about it the more I think the “The Voice” is the absolute worst of all worlds.
The way I see it is that we are all here in this country as a result of some type migration, even aboriginals. And each wave of migration has had impacts to the continent, Australian wildlife and it’s inhabitants, good and bad. And there is good and bad in all of humanity. The way this debate is going, whoever is on the other side is automatically deemed bad and whoever agrees is good. And perhaps this is the problem with the modern era overall.
No one is being elevated. This myth of “special rights” or “special treatment” has been repeatedly debunked by constitutional law experts.
This is 100% false - the Voice is purely an advisory body. To equate it to the House of Representatives or the Senate is just a flat out lie.
How? It has no power.
Powerless is not the same as unnecessary. The Voice will be able to make more informed recommendations to government than any other advisory body when it comes to matters specific to Indigenous Australians. It is true that a potential lack of willingness from government, particularly conservative government, to actually listen to and work with the Voice is a concern. However there is no guarantee that this will be the case.
The Voice would not exist solely to solve the “problems” you’re referring to. Issues relating specifically to Indigenous Australians will continue to exist for as long as they exist. Having an advisory board that can offer better advice than anything that has come before it will always be important. It needs to be permanent so that it cannot be instantly wiped out by a conservative government, as has been emphasised repeatedly for months now.
Again - you completely misunderstand the point of the Voice. It is not a quick bandaid solution for social problems. There is absolutely no intention of abolishing it once it “does the trick”. This is why it is in the constitution.
Once again - the Voice doesn’t have power.
Come on dude, really? This is textbook slippery slope fallacy. Please be better than this if you are serious about engaging in discussion and debate.
I don’t even know where to start with this. You are completely ignorant of history if you think the social problems that exist today are a consequence of people not “taking responsibility for their actions”. The dispossession of land, genocide, incarceration, Stolen Generations - all of this is quite literally someone else’s fault. White people tried to wipe Indigenous Australians out, failed and have left a mountain of problems behind that cannot be solved solely by the individual choices of the victims.
The Voice will be 100% run by Indigenous Australians. Its advice will therefore be superior to that of any other body. For example, the National Indigenous Australians Agency, which the conservative No campaign is attempting to use as evidence that the Voice is redundant, is only 22% Indigenous.
It needs to be in the constitution so it isn’t immediately abolished by a future, most likely conservative, government. You literally just acknowledged yourself that many previous advisory and policy groups have been dismantled by government.
Are you Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander? No? Then no one cares about how you feel. This isn’t about you. Not everything is about you.
The Voice is just one aspect of the Uluru Statement from the Heart. The majority of Indigenous Australians support it, but this does not mean that they are opposed to further additions and implementations. The Voice is a start, it is not the be all and end all.
If such people even exist they are an extreme, extreme minority. You are very closeted if you actually believe such a group is large enough to warrant a mention.
Use your brain please. What is the key difference here? One group was here first. Non-Indigenous peoples displaced those who were here first. You are either extremely ignorant of Australia’s history, or just downright dishonest if you think we are all the same in this respect.
Welcome to politics. Welcome to our ever polarising society. This is not an excuse for you to play the victim. Your failed arguments and lies do not magically gain more weight because someone hurt your feelings.
Probably more direct than I would have been but good post, glad you’ve argued with people on the internet so I don’t have to.
A mixture of slippery slope, a complete disregard for the weight of history and a lack of understanding of the difference between “law” and “justice” seem to be a recurring set of arguments when it comes to disagreeing with social justice issues.
I figured no one else was going to do it because it was too long. On platforms like reddit and Lemmy you kinda have to shut this stuff down instantly or dumb people start upvoting it. Most are too lazy to actually read stuff properly or fact check it themselves so if they see a comment with a high number of upvotes they just blindly believe it has some value even when it is completely useless dribble like the one above. I also enjoy the bit where these losers rage reply or cry about their hurt feelings after you completely destroy their flimsy little soap box, so that’s extra motivation I guess.
I could respond to everything you said but you are not dscussing this in good faith. You are dismissive, rude and insulting. I will not engage with someone with an attitude.
It’s the Yes side that wants something and wants to change. It’s up to the Yes side to argue for they want convincingly and respectfully and you won’t get it by being rude.
You can keep responding if you like, but I would only hope you take my advice because it’s the best thing for the Yes side, or shoot yourself in the foot, it’s up to you.
I don’t care about changing your opinion dude. I have no fucking idea who you are or why you think you’re so important to me but you’re not not - sorry to break it to you. The emotional blackmail is not going to work; lose the main character syndrome.
The only reason I replied is to debunk your lies and correct your misconceptions. People like you always attempt to overwhelm everyone by just spewing out as much garbage as possible - this is literally the conservative No campaign’s tactic for the referendum.
If you actually want to defend your drivel for whatever reason, grow up and get a real argument. “You hurt my feelings” is not an argument; it is childish behaviour.
Whether you believe they are an idiot or not for having their views is irrelevant. The sidebar says to keep discussion civil and respectful, I find having to remind everyone of this is like being a primary school teacher
I disagree with your political position, but I do agree with your stance on being disrespected.
I still feel like you should reply, but take the high road, continue to be respectful and address the points of disagreement. I want to see where this conversation goes.
I’m not playing ball with somebody who calls me a liar, accuses me of playing the victim (which made no sense) and calls me an idiot.
This is the problem with some on the Yes side, who feel the need to engage in personal attacks, often on people they don’t even know. And there’s no doubt some of that on the No side too.
Ultimately I’ll have my say on referendum day, assuming I decide to take part. And what I don’t find persuasive is personal attacks from either side, and I imagine many others are the same.
"Your capacity to be offended, isn’t something that I or anyone else needs to respect. Your capacity to be offended isn’t something you should respect. In fact, it’s something you should be on your guard for, perhaps more than any other property of your mind.
This feeling can mislead you. If you care about justice (and you absolutely should) you should care about facts and the ability to discuss them openly. Justice requires contact with reality.
It simply isn’t the case, it cannot be the case, that the most pressing claims on our sense of justice need come from those who claim to be most offended by conversation itself."
I’m not even aboriginal. My ancestors came from China during the gold rush. There are things I’d like to see redressed too but I haven’t had it as bad. They’re first in line, so to speak.
A lot of people have responded intelligently, but I’m going to respond like a dum-dum:
Thought provoking post. I want to do everything possible to help address aboriginal issues. But I would have preferred they trial the voice for a couple of years first to see if it works and iron out any issues. Then if it’s a success, use that as evidence why it should be added to the constitution. It seems wild to commit to something before we’ve really tried it.
https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp2223/Quick_Guides/FormerAboriginalandTorresStraightIslanderRepresentativeBodies#:~:text=Previous Australian Government-appointed advisory,2019).
There’s been lots, either recognised or appointed by the government over the years.
And whenever they become inconvenient (publicly saying things the Government doesn’t want the public to hear), the Government of the day dismisses them.
The whole point here is to institute a body that can
The Government of the day doesn’t have to do what The Voice says and the The Voice has no veto - but they do have to publicly acknowledge what has been said to them.
That being said, I’ll still vote yes.
It would be lot more persuasive than blind faith that’s for sure.