This is devastating. And amidst so much debate over Israel’s right to defend itself, I feel it’s getting lost that this military campaign is only a success if measured by a set of goals even most Zionists would not recognize as productive.
Will it make Israel safer? No, undoubtedly the war has cost international standing, strained the US-Israel relationship, and will inevitably radicalize far more extremists than are killed.
Will it continue the right-ward shift of Israeli policy? Does it cut off avenues for peace and reconciliation and foster militant Israeli nationalism? Yes.
This campaign is only a success if the primary objective is the eventual capture of the entire region at the cost of Israel’s safety (and the safety of Jews around the world) and Israel’s international standing. By any more conventional aims, it is an unmitigated disaster.
Honest question, what is Israel supposed to do? Give Hamas concessions? I think history shows that appeasement only emboldens terrorism. Back out now and let Hamas come back with even more local support?
It’s a lose/lose. There is no winning for Israel. It seems that either Israel makes itself a pariah in the international community by killing countless innocent Palestinians or it lets terrorists win.
I would love for you or someone to help me see a different way Israel can get back out of this.
Part 1:
I grew up a Zionist. In most versions, Zionism envisioned a peaceful, multi-ethnic state. In that sense, the zionist project is half-complete.
The first half was accomplished by people who aspired to something that everyone said was madness, totally impossible, completely unfeasible, hopelessly unworkable. And they fucking did that thing.
Now, anyone who considers themselves a Zionist needs to take on the responsibility for continuing that project with the sense of courage and insane vision that brought Israel into existence. ‘It’s too hard!’ ‘There are no good solutions!’ BULLSHIT. The whole country is founded on the idea that nothing is impossible, so let’s stop making excuses.
Part 2:
The biggest problem is Jewish radicals. Itmar Ben Givir of the Jewish Power Party, Bezalel Smotrich of the Religious Zionist Party, and Netanyahu of Likud. These are the primary leaders of a genocide, and Netanyahu’s special move for decades has been foreclosing peace. Step one is wanting peace, and step two is holding accountable the people who’ve never wanted it and always tried to keep it out of reach.
Step three, I think, is to help every Palestinian climb what I think of as “the ladder”. Israel is an apartheid state. You’ve got Ashkenazi Jews at the top, and Mizrahi/Sphardeic Jews close but just below. Then you’ve got Palestinian Israelis, then a whole bunch of tiers of West Bank / East Jeruselum Palestinians, then Gazans / foreign refugees. Each group needs a path to the rights of the group above, and there has to be a roadmap to a roadmap to peace. And that is going to require international brokers. Israeli needs a government that isn’t hostile to the UN, and the US needs to reduce its involvement and stay the fuck out of the peace process.
You should think a bit more about that “ladder” concept. In the same way that advocating for manumission doesn’t fix any of the issues with slavery a “path to the rights of the group above” doesn’t fix any of the issues with an apartheid state.
Unless you’re fine with a little genocide, any apartheid state is not a solution.
I’m saying that the apartheid state needs dismantled.
It’s just a mental exercise to get people to expand their imagination. I don’t expect the end of apartheid to literally require each group to pass through a series of stages.
The goal is destroy Hamas, the terrorist grouping that raped, tortured, and killed a few thousand Israelis and other men, women, and children (and infants) in an unprovoked terrorist attacking.
First: What does “destroying Hamas” mean, in literal, measurable terms? If a 14 year old posts on social media the day after the war ends that they’re declaring their loyalty to Hamas, does that count as Hamas surviving? I would assume it doesn’t. But if that doesn’t count, what does? It’s an insurgency backed by international partners. How do you know when it’s destroyed?
Second: Is this the best way to destroy Hamas? Netanyahu propped them up with Qatari cash for years. Hamas was unpopular in Gaza before the war, and now they’re widely popular. Wouldn’t empowering Palestinians to overthrow Hamas have made more sense? Hamas became far stronger politically since September. Now, Israel is killing its own hostages. I can’t believe how badly the war has been carried out, even if we’re only counting the cost in Israeli lives.
Third: whether it’s called Hamas, Hamas2, or anything else, this is OBVIOUSLY creating far more violent extremism than it’s destroying. It seems obvious to me that this is fostering a third Intifada, likely with a return of bus bombings and terrorist attacks within '48. Which if you look at the current leadership doesn’t seem like a mistake. This is happening while the state is arming Jewish Israeli civilians and increasingly tightening pressure of Palestinian Israeli citizens, and increasing state-sanctioned terrorism in the occupied west bank. It look very clearly like this military campaign is going to spread a limited conflict into a civil war and widespread sectarian violence across Israel-Palestine.
That doesn’t seem like a win unless your goal is to foster a far-right environment that empowers extremists on both sides. You see what I mean?
Lastly, there’s MILLIONS of Palestinians who have nothing to do with this who are facing atrocities. No one, no matter how supportive of Israel should be able to dismiss the deaths, maiming, and terrorism against a largely helpless ethnic underclass. The dead, the imprissoned, the terrified and the impoverished from Gaza to Jerusalem cannot be a “reasonable cost”. It’s good for no one except Jewish Supremacists who consider Palestinian suffering to be an a priori good. That needs to be a minority opinion. Liberal Zionists have to wake up to how horrifying and corrosive this is.
I mean if another group of people want to then commit terrorist attacks on Israel like Hamas did, they now know what the result is going to be don’t they?
Israel aren’t killing their own hostages, don’t try and put it like that. Hamas are killing them by taking them in the first place. Israel are trying to get them back. Hamas are holding the entire Palestinian population hostage. They are shooting anyone that tries to leave. Don’t blame Israel for the terrorist group killing their own people.
I’m speaking entirely literally here: on December 15th, one or more soldiers of the Israeli Defense Force shot and killed three Israeli hostages that had escaped from Hamas. They were not human shields, they approached an Israeli checkpoint naked and pleading for rescue, and they were mowed down. Their names are Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka.
To be clear, the other hostages are also being sacrificed by the Netanyahu government, but in this case there is no metaphor or subjectivity. An Israeli soldier apparently killed the third one in some kind of panic even after they’d identified themselves and a call had been given to hold fire. It’s an absolute tragedy and should lead to a major reconsideration of how the counteroffensive is being carried out.
I’m not presenting this to win debate points, btw. I’m asking people who are rightly furious about Oct. 7 to stop and look at their hands. They have Israeli, Jewish blood running down them. Frankly, they’re also dripping with Palestinian blood. But when you realize that in your blind rage, you confused your family for your enemy and slaughtered those you were trying to save with your own hands… It’s time to break down and cry, and begin to try to atone.
This is devastating. And amidst so much debate over Israel’s right to defend itself, I feel it’s getting lost that this military campaign is only a success if measured by a set of goals even most Zionists would not recognize as productive.
Will it make Israel safer? No, undoubtedly the war has cost international standing, strained the US-Israel relationship, and will inevitably radicalize far more extremists than are killed.
Will it continue the right-ward shift of Israeli policy? Does it cut off avenues for peace and reconciliation and foster militant Israeli nationalism? Yes.
This campaign is only a success if the primary objective is the eventual capture of the entire region at the cost of Israel’s safety (and the safety of Jews around the world) and Israel’s international standing. By any more conventional aims, it is an unmitigated disaster.
The US’s twenty years in Afghanistan should have taught the rest of the world the “forever wars” don’t work.
But I suppose not.
Honest question, what is Israel supposed to do? Give Hamas concessions? I think history shows that appeasement only emboldens terrorism. Back out now and let Hamas come back with even more local support?
It’s a lose/lose. There is no winning for Israel. It seems that either Israel makes itself a pariah in the international community by killing countless innocent Palestinians or it lets terrorists win.
I would love for you or someone to help me see a different way Israel can get back out of this.
I’m going to answer in two parts.
Part 1: I grew up a Zionist. In most versions, Zionism envisioned a peaceful, multi-ethnic state. In that sense, the zionist project is half-complete.
The first half was accomplished by people who aspired to something that everyone said was madness, totally impossible, completely unfeasible, hopelessly unworkable. And they fucking did that thing.
Now, anyone who considers themselves a Zionist needs to take on the responsibility for continuing that project with the sense of courage and insane vision that brought Israel into existence. ‘It’s too hard!’ ‘There are no good solutions!’ BULLSHIT. The whole country is founded on the idea that nothing is impossible, so let’s stop making excuses.
Part 2: The biggest problem is Jewish radicals. Itmar Ben Givir of the Jewish Power Party, Bezalel Smotrich of the Religious Zionist Party, and Netanyahu of Likud. These are the primary leaders of a genocide, and Netanyahu’s special move for decades has been foreclosing peace. Step one is wanting peace, and step two is holding accountable the people who’ve never wanted it and always tried to keep it out of reach.
Step three, I think, is to help every Palestinian climb what I think of as “the ladder”. Israel is an apartheid state. You’ve got Ashkenazi Jews at the top, and Mizrahi/Sphardeic Jews close but just below. Then you’ve got Palestinian Israelis, then a whole bunch of tiers of West Bank / East Jeruselum Palestinians, then Gazans / foreign refugees. Each group needs a path to the rights of the group above, and there has to be a roadmap to a roadmap to peace. And that is going to require international brokers. Israeli needs a government that isn’t hostile to the UN, and the US needs to reduce its involvement and stay the fuck out of the peace process.
You should think a bit more about that “ladder” concept. In the same way that advocating for manumission doesn’t fix any of the issues with slavery a “path to the rights of the group above” doesn’t fix any of the issues with an apartheid state.
Unless you’re fine with a little genocide, any apartheid state is not a solution.
I’m saying that the apartheid state needs dismantled.
It’s just a mental exercise to get people to expand their imagination. I don’t expect the end of apartheid to literally require each group to pass through a series of stages.
The goal is destroy Hamas, the terrorist grouping that raped, tortured, and killed a few thousand Israelis and other men, women, and children (and infants) in an unprovoked terrorist attacking.
Okay, but this reasoning has a bunch of problem.
First: What does “destroying Hamas” mean, in literal, measurable terms? If a 14 year old posts on social media the day after the war ends that they’re declaring their loyalty to Hamas, does that count as Hamas surviving? I would assume it doesn’t. But if that doesn’t count, what does? It’s an insurgency backed by international partners. How do you know when it’s destroyed?
Second: Is this the best way to destroy Hamas? Netanyahu propped them up with Qatari cash for years. Hamas was unpopular in Gaza before the war, and now they’re widely popular. Wouldn’t empowering Palestinians to overthrow Hamas have made more sense? Hamas became far stronger politically since September. Now, Israel is killing its own hostages. I can’t believe how badly the war has been carried out, even if we’re only counting the cost in Israeli lives.
Third: whether it’s called Hamas, Hamas2, or anything else, this is OBVIOUSLY creating far more violent extremism than it’s destroying. It seems obvious to me that this is fostering a third Intifada, likely with a return of bus bombings and terrorist attacks within '48. Which if you look at the current leadership doesn’t seem like a mistake. This is happening while the state is arming Jewish Israeli civilians and increasingly tightening pressure of Palestinian Israeli citizens, and increasing state-sanctioned terrorism in the occupied west bank. It look very clearly like this military campaign is going to spread a limited conflict into a civil war and widespread sectarian violence across Israel-Palestine.
That doesn’t seem like a win unless your goal is to foster a far-right environment that empowers extremists on both sides. You see what I mean?
Lastly, there’s MILLIONS of Palestinians who have nothing to do with this who are facing atrocities. No one, no matter how supportive of Israel should be able to dismiss the deaths, maiming, and terrorism against a largely helpless ethnic underclass. The dead, the imprissoned, the terrified and the impoverished from Gaza to Jerusalem cannot be a “reasonable cost”. It’s good for no one except Jewish Supremacists who consider Palestinian suffering to be an a priori good. That needs to be a minority opinion. Liberal Zionists have to wake up to how horrifying and corrosive this is.
I mean if another group of people want to then commit terrorist attacks on Israel like Hamas did, they now know what the result is going to be don’t they?
Israel aren’t killing their own hostages, don’t try and put it like that. Hamas are killing them by taking them in the first place. Israel are trying to get them back. Hamas are holding the entire Palestinian population hostage. They are shooting anyone that tries to leave. Don’t blame Israel for the terrorist group killing their own people.
I’m speaking entirely literally here: on December 15th, one or more soldiers of the Israeli Defense Force shot and killed three Israeli hostages that had escaped from Hamas. They were not human shields, they approached an Israeli checkpoint naked and pleading for rescue, and they were mowed down. Their names are Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka.
To be clear, the other hostages are also being sacrificed by the Netanyahu government, but in this case there is no metaphor or subjectivity. An Israeli soldier apparently killed the third one in some kind of panic even after they’d identified themselves and a call had been given to hold fire. It’s an absolute tragedy and should lead to a major reconsideration of how the counteroffensive is being carried out.
I’m not presenting this to win debate points, btw. I’m asking people who are rightly furious about Oct. 7 to stop and look at their hands. They have Israeli, Jewish blood running down them. Frankly, they’re also dripping with Palestinian blood. But when you realize that in your blind rage, you confused your family for your enemy and slaughtered those you were trying to save with your own hands… It’s time to break down and cry, and begin to try to atone.