The goal is destroy Hamas, the terrorist grouping that raped, tortured, and killed a few thousand Israelis and other men, women, and children (and infants) in an unprovoked terrorist attacking.
First: What does “destroying Hamas” mean, in literal, measurable terms? If a 14 year old posts on social media the day after the war ends that they’re declaring their loyalty to Hamas, does that count as Hamas surviving? I would assume it doesn’t. But if that doesn’t count, what does? It’s an insurgency backed by international partners. How do you know when it’s destroyed?
Second: Is this the best way to destroy Hamas? Netanyahu propped them up with Qatari cash for years. Hamas was unpopular in Gaza before the war, and now they’re widely popular. Wouldn’t empowering Palestinians to overthrow Hamas have made more sense? Hamas became far stronger politically since September. Now, Israel is killing its own hostages. I can’t believe how badly the war has been carried out, even if we’re only counting the cost in Israeli lives.
Third: whether it’s called Hamas, Hamas2, or anything else, this is OBVIOUSLY creating far more violent extremism than it’s destroying. It seems obvious to me that this is fostering a third Intifada, likely with a return of bus bombings and terrorist attacks within '48. Which if you look at the current leadership doesn’t seem like a mistake. This is happening while the state is arming Jewish Israeli civilians and increasingly tightening pressure of Palestinian Israeli citizens, and increasing state-sanctioned terrorism in the occupied west bank. It look very clearly like this military campaign is going to spread a limited conflict into a civil war and widespread sectarian violence across Israel-Palestine.
That doesn’t seem like a win unless your goal is to foster a far-right environment that empowers extremists on both sides. You see what I mean?
Lastly, there’s MILLIONS of Palestinians who have nothing to do with this who are facing atrocities. No one, no matter how supportive of Israel should be able to dismiss the deaths, maiming, and terrorism against a largely helpless ethnic underclass. The dead, the imprissoned, the terrified and the impoverished from Gaza to Jerusalem cannot be a “reasonable cost”. It’s good for no one except Jewish Supremacists who consider Palestinian suffering to be an a priori good. That needs to be a minority opinion. Liberal Zionists have to wake up to how horrifying and corrosive this is.
I mean if another group of people want to then commit terrorist attacks on Israel like Hamas did, they now know what the result is going to be don’t they?
Israel aren’t killing their own hostages, don’t try and put it like that. Hamas are killing them by taking them in the first place. Israel are trying to get them back. Hamas are holding the entire Palestinian population hostage. They are shooting anyone that tries to leave. Don’t blame Israel for the terrorist group killing their own people.
I’m speaking entirely literally here: on December 15th, one or more soldiers of the Israeli Defense Force shot and killed three Israeli hostages that had escaped from Hamas. They were not human shields, they approached an Israeli checkpoint naked and pleading for rescue, and they were mowed down. Their names are Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka.
To be clear, the other hostages are also being sacrificed by the Netanyahu government, but in this case there is no metaphor or subjectivity. An Israeli soldier apparently killed the third one in some kind of panic even after they’d identified themselves and a call had been given to hold fire. It’s an absolute tragedy and should lead to a major reconsideration of how the counteroffensive is being carried out.
I’m not presenting this to win debate points, btw. I’m asking people who are rightly furious about Oct. 7 to stop and look at their hands. They have Israeli, Jewish blood running down them. Frankly, they’re also dripping with Palestinian blood. But when you realize that in your blind rage, you confused your family for your enemy and slaughtered those you were trying to save with your own hands… It’s time to break down and cry, and begin to try to atone.
The goal is destroy Hamas, the terrorist grouping that raped, tortured, and killed a few thousand Israelis and other men, women, and children (and infants) in an unprovoked terrorist attacking.
Okay, but this reasoning has a bunch of problem.
First: What does “destroying Hamas” mean, in literal, measurable terms? If a 14 year old posts on social media the day after the war ends that they’re declaring their loyalty to Hamas, does that count as Hamas surviving? I would assume it doesn’t. But if that doesn’t count, what does? It’s an insurgency backed by international partners. How do you know when it’s destroyed?
Second: Is this the best way to destroy Hamas? Netanyahu propped them up with Qatari cash for years. Hamas was unpopular in Gaza before the war, and now they’re widely popular. Wouldn’t empowering Palestinians to overthrow Hamas have made more sense? Hamas became far stronger politically since September. Now, Israel is killing its own hostages. I can’t believe how badly the war has been carried out, even if we’re only counting the cost in Israeli lives.
Third: whether it’s called Hamas, Hamas2, or anything else, this is OBVIOUSLY creating far more violent extremism than it’s destroying. It seems obvious to me that this is fostering a third Intifada, likely with a return of bus bombings and terrorist attacks within '48. Which if you look at the current leadership doesn’t seem like a mistake. This is happening while the state is arming Jewish Israeli civilians and increasingly tightening pressure of Palestinian Israeli citizens, and increasing state-sanctioned terrorism in the occupied west bank. It look very clearly like this military campaign is going to spread a limited conflict into a civil war and widespread sectarian violence across Israel-Palestine.
That doesn’t seem like a win unless your goal is to foster a far-right environment that empowers extremists on both sides. You see what I mean?
Lastly, there’s MILLIONS of Palestinians who have nothing to do with this who are facing atrocities. No one, no matter how supportive of Israel should be able to dismiss the deaths, maiming, and terrorism against a largely helpless ethnic underclass. The dead, the imprissoned, the terrified and the impoverished from Gaza to Jerusalem cannot be a “reasonable cost”. It’s good for no one except Jewish Supremacists who consider Palestinian suffering to be an a priori good. That needs to be a minority opinion. Liberal Zionists have to wake up to how horrifying and corrosive this is.
I mean if another group of people want to then commit terrorist attacks on Israel like Hamas did, they now know what the result is going to be don’t they?
Israel aren’t killing their own hostages, don’t try and put it like that. Hamas are killing them by taking them in the first place. Israel are trying to get them back. Hamas are holding the entire Palestinian population hostage. They are shooting anyone that tries to leave. Don’t blame Israel for the terrorist group killing their own people.
I’m speaking entirely literally here: on December 15th, one or more soldiers of the Israeli Defense Force shot and killed three Israeli hostages that had escaped from Hamas. They were not human shields, they approached an Israeli checkpoint naked and pleading for rescue, and they were mowed down. Their names are Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka.
To be clear, the other hostages are also being sacrificed by the Netanyahu government, but in this case there is no metaphor or subjectivity. An Israeli soldier apparently killed the third one in some kind of panic even after they’d identified themselves and a call had been given to hold fire. It’s an absolute tragedy and should lead to a major reconsideration of how the counteroffensive is being carried out.
I’m not presenting this to win debate points, btw. I’m asking people who are rightly furious about Oct. 7 to stop and look at their hands. They have Israeli, Jewish blood running down them. Frankly, they’re also dripping with Palestinian blood. But when you realize that in your blind rage, you confused your family for your enemy and slaughtered those you were trying to save with your own hands… It’s time to break down and cry, and begin to try to atone.