If feel like us guys are at a disadvantage here. All our lives were are told not to complain unless we bring a solution, not to cry, get up, keep moving.
Then suddenly the thought pattern we have been trained on all our lives turns out to not be healthy for supporting others and it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Not saying it’s wrong, just hard.
it’s a hard transition to make when we want so desperately to help and are asked not to.
Listening is helping. It took me a while to get that, but we’re helping just by being quiet.
Yes, but there’s a disconnect between helping directly and helping indirectly. Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing, which is antithetical to the above commenters train of logic.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that it’s not something that people should learn to do… but it’s not always something you can solve by making that connection.
Many people don’t want advice and that’s fine. I complain not because I want them to fix it but because it helps me organize my thoughts and verify that my complaints are valid so that I can see if it’s something I can fix myself, often though complaining about bad things that I cannot fix. I am perfectly capable of handling problems as an adult, but people need to vent so they can actually focus on a solution.
Listening is indirect help, passive help. It’s helping simply by existing
Not in my experience. The listener is helping the speaker organize their thoughts, work through their feelings, and (in some cases) decide on a course of action. The listener needs to ask questions, understand the speaker, and help them sort things out.
In a spouse or friend situation, the listener is probably also providing emotional support. Which can be immensely helpful, since it validates the speaker.
There’s also follow up. The listener should talk to the speaker and see how their feelings have evolved.
Yup. It’s akin to “not making a choice is itself a choice”. It doesn’t feel like it is, but can be equally impactful.
Perhaps everyone wants to vent a while before they get a solution, but men aren’t allowed to do that.
Rubber ducking, not just for programmers. Listen, acknowledge what you’re hearing, ask open ended questions (not leading), and learn from and about their experience. You’ll grow closer and both people can gain a lot from it.
Interesting. How is that?
If you are asking what rubber ducking is, it’s the practice of explaining your issues to a toy as if it were a coworker. Explaining your issues to a coworker forces you to organise your thoughts and problems so that wherever you tell makes sense, and a lot of times the act of organising pushes you to vetch the fault in your logic, or the issue that needs fixing, the missing part…
Except…
I feel bad for my rubber ducky. It still helps though! The number of support/bug report emails that never get sent because I figured it out from the same thought process is not 0. I read this once, but talking/thinking about the problem, just the problem, for 5+ minutes before trying to come up with solutions can be really helpful.
I see. Do you like rubber ducking?
Not really, I just info dump my partner on my coffee break and since she’s not a dev, the process of simplifying the issue so she somewhat understands and shortening it so she doesn’t get too bored is helpful enough.
And how does that make you feel?
I didn’t realize that I do this to machine operators at work when their machine is broken, thanks for this!
Explaining something as complicated as “Why Your Machine is Fucked and Now You Have to Sweep” to someone lacking the decade of training and experience I have is like a compulsion sometimes.
I don’t think it’s fair to expect your significant other to act as an inanimate object and receive your frustrations without reacting like they normally would. It’s great if you have that kind of relationship, but forcing it is not ok.
You are not supposed to be an inanimate object. You’re supposed to listen, acknowledge, talk about the topic at hands. Empathize, ask questions to better understand the problem. Show interest in your significant other, show them you care about what is upsetting them.
Sometimes people get stuck on the “have you tried the most basic and simplest answer?” questions and it’s frustrating as hell. You can just ask “wanna brainstorm about it?”, at least you’re setting the mood in the right direction.
Also known as being a good listener. Ideally it goes back and forth, too. But there’s a time and a place for everyone to take on the listener/encourager role.
For anyone struggling with this, two hints that might help you frame your role better:
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Listening is the solution. By trying to solve what your SO told you, you are actually trying to solve the wrong problem. Their real problem is that their brain needs to say things aloud to someone in order to correctly process it’s own thoughts. Therapists make a frickin’ living off of that quirk of our brains and it’s the actual problem they come to you with. Even better: By listening you can not only advise on solutions, you can be the solution! Neat, huh?
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Listening and solving aren’t mutually exclusive. If you stick to listening first, your SO might actually come to a point where your advice is wanted. Pro tip: Once their thoughts slow down, ask if they want to hear what you think about the issue. From my experience, the answer will be “yes” very often. That way, your thoughts will actually reach your SO and not get blocked by frustration outright. Yet, as with everything else: No means no. So if you get a no, don’t try again, shut the fuck up, alright?
Them’s a lot of rules. I think I’ll just choose to remain single.
Choose’s doing a lot of work in that sentence ;)
Or yet another way to look at it is that when people are venting it’s not the actual problem that they’re venting about it’s the uncomfortable emotions that come about as a result of problem. Very usually, someone is doing something that makes their lives harder but it is within a very specific environment, e.g. work, school, some kind of committee, where there are rules against settling disputes by right of arms. So even though I might have a really elegant solution for ‘solving’ that particular dispute, what I tend to be listening to long term tends to be, 'Coworkers… can’t live with 'em, can’t kill ‘em’. To which the correct answer is obviously not ‘You could solve that problem with Piranha Solution - removes organic material from the substrate’, it’s ‘Yes, we do have to put up with annoying people for a long time sometimes.’
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I was way too old when I learned that you should ask if someone wants advice or just wants to vent. “Are we fixing or bitching?” is what I ask my best friend nowadays and it’s made us less likely to butt heads when one of us just wants to talk shit to get it out.
I feel like that would be the wrong question to ask my wife while she’s venting.
I always ask “is this a rant or are you asking for a solution?” Same question but worded in a way that isn’t going to cause problems.
Yeah I guess it depends on the person you’re talking to. Most people I’ve asked the question will usually laugh and say, “we’re bitching right now.”
I respond with, “bitch away.”
I (37M) recently caught myself getting frustrated when my wife offered solutions to my ranting. I just wanted to complain and not be told all the ways I could have avoided the problem in the first place. I finally understand.
Yes! It totally happens to everyone, once you notice it. Best self-awareness/relationship advice I’ve heard is say something like “Are you looking for advice, or someone to listen?”. Phrasing and tone to be adjusted by the individual user, obviously XD
There is, I think, a significant difference between giving suggestions on how to resolve an issue, and a person offering ways you could have prevented it. And I would hazard most people find the latter unhelpful and annoying.
Thank you, yeah it’s like sometimes you just have to work through it before you hear some suggestions.
Sometimes people just need someone to listen to them bitch and moan. Sometimes we don’t need a solution, sometimes there isn’t even a solution.
As a problem-solver, it isn’t only women.
This could also be an issue of this:
The difference between empathy and sympathy
In my experience some people struggle with empathy a lot more than they realise. And the “solutions” they offer are just ways for them to try and get out of an uncomfortable conversation. There are better and more honest ways to do that.
I think we should stop saying empathy and start saying compassion (again.)
Most people don’t know what the differences between sympathy and empathy are and get confused whenever they hear empathy. “You mean sympathy?”
Just say compassion. I get the ‘dm’ crowd has chosen their wording, but it sucks and we can change it.
Replace every instance of ‘empathy’ with compassion and everyone will understand you better, but you won’t be virtue signaling for your crowd.
I don’t think she actually captured what sympathy is. And here’s an counter point to empathy
I don’t think he captured what empathy is. What he says honestly aligns more closely with sympathy by my understanding.
Sympathy involves understanding and feeling sorry for someone’s situation, while empathy goes a step further, involving the ability to share and understand the emotions of another person. It’s almost always a one on one connection. You’re putting yourself in their shoes, personally.
Sympathy often includes a desire to offer solutions or assistance, while empathy is primarily about understanding and sharing emotions. Donating to a charity for the blind out of a sense of feeling sorry for them aligns more with sympathy, as it involves a compassionate response and a potential desire to provide support or solutions without necessarily fully understanding the blind individuals’ emotional experiences. It’s even less empathetic if you’re primarily doing it to feel good. I would personally classify it as altruism or personal fulfilment based on sympathy for their suffering.
I do agree with the general point that you can usually get more done if you pick a lane, I just don’t think the fact that people don’t pick a lane, because they want to feel good for helping many different causes, is based on misguided empathy. And I think it’s wrong to argue empathy is bad based on this premise.
Lastly, even if I’m entirely wrong and it is empathy, he’s only arguing against empathy being bad on a societal level. That does not mean it’s bad on a one on one level such as when talking to a friend, family member or partner. Arguing that ALL empathy is bad just because using empathy to make decisions on “how best to help the world” is bad is incredibly inaccurate.
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway. Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
What if your nature is in constant problem solving mode, my life and work revolve around solving problems so it’s a natural neurological pathway.
If that’s why you’re problem solving then your urge Problem solving is for you and about you . Not for them. If you’re making room for someone in your life that means letting things also be about them.
Should someone like that work overtime to suppress how they think about a situation, and stay quiet
Again: making it about you and how it’s inconvenient for you.
until they formulate some method of discussion and acknowledgement of the problem, without offering solutions?
Sometimes it is about them finding their voice. And at times it’s about letting them learn. It can be empowering for them to grow.
You might offer help when asked or when you know someone definitely is incapable. But let others have their space and their journey too especially if you know they are capable.
Problem solving is sometimes a problem in and of itself especially in situations of where it’s enabling or stifling others or stopping you from connecting to them.
I guess then I should just stay quiet and keep doing whatever I’m working on while listening passively.
Listening actively comes in more than one description. Cmon it cannot be painful to be there for someone else. Stop being obtuse on purpose. That’s just acting in bad faith.
I think it comes down to the balance, most people want me to listen but do not care to listen to me. It is generally a selfish thing to demand from me my full attention without reciprocating. That is not bad faith in that case.
I think some people are just not compatible with each other. To try and claim one way is right or better or more rational is surprisingly unrational and not aligned with finding a solution.
When you are unable to offer emotional support or empathy to your partner, communicate early that you won’t be willing or able to listen to their problems on their terms. Then they can decide if that’s okay with them. Problem solved.
Some people need to be heard a lot more than others, could be compatibility in that case. If I’m the listener 90% of the time without being able to engage in the conversation really, it doesn’t seem appealing for me to be there at all. A balance is probably a key factor, and some people are far more needy than others.
Maybe consider it from the other perspective - the other party wants to be heard. That’s the problem you’re trying to solve.
Can you solve it? How would you solve it? What approaches make them feel heard? What feedback do they need from you to indicats they are being heard? How do you get feedback from them that they feel heard? What are the words you should use? How will you know they are wanting to be heard? What are the words they are using? What are the facial expressions they are using? What are they doing with their body while they’re talking to you? 1What situations are likely to bring about an instance which they are wanting to be heard?
I had to do this a bit when moving into people management. After a whole you become practised at it and it’s not hard any more.
This. Turn it into a puzzle and maybe you won’t be stressed out when you can’t instantly solve it so you don’t have to listen
Most people, especially women, crave connection. We want to feel seen and understood. Cutting us off to provide a quick solution feels as if you really just want us to shut up so you can go back to whatever you were doing.
I acknowledge that the cutting off part is valid, but that wasn’t in OPs post.
Top the broader point, I can say confidently that many men feel like to provide an actionable solution to a problem projects exactly what you say that you want - to us it says that we’ve seen, heard and understood you and we cared enough to process the information we heard and offer a solution that we formed by investing some real thought/energy into you as a person we care about.
Can you empathize with how, to a person with the above perception, that just quietly nodding along and saying, “that’s really tough” or “I’m sorry about that honey” would sound like exactly the opposite of what you say you want - Like we’re not actually tuned in and listening to you, but rather just waiting for pauses in your speech so we can share generic platitudes while maintaining eye contact to give the illusion that we’re invested?
It’s a tricky balance and there’s likely just a fundamental disconnect that we should address. I think you and I can solve this one for the whole world going forward though, what do you think?
Oftentimes though, if I’m sharing frustration with something, I already have a solution. It’s just that it’s hard, or inconvenient, or stressful. If my partner comes in immediately with solutions, the discussion immediately turns to practical discussion of the solution I have in mind vs. what my partner thinks is best. If I already have a viable solution in mind, this is not what I need and puts me on the defensive when I’m already stressed and hurt. Especially if my partner doesn’t fully understand the problem yet. This has the capability to turn into arguing very fast because it presents the opportunity for disagreement without dealing with underlying emotional states.
However, if my partner instead listens, starts by supporting me emotionally, “I’m sorry, that’s tough”, and lets me get my piece out, I’m already going to feel a bit better, especially if I can trust my partner not to assume I just haven’t thought about it enough. Much of the time, all I need is reassurance and confidence-building in the solution I already have - mirroring on an emotional level without focusing on finding better practical solutions is a perfect way to do that. After I’m freaking out a little less and have laid out the full problem and it’s completely understood, I don’t mind some “have you tried X” or “what would you think of Y” conversation. But the emotional work and full understanding of the problem has to come first for that to be productive.
Damn. Downvotes for a perfectly cogent explanation. Those of you downvoting consider that not everyone wants, needs, or has the same relationship dynamics or even personal philosophies towards emotional work and reactions to problems.
Unprocessed feelings always come out in some way, not all healthy. Suppressing temporarily or venting are only part of the equation. Choosing to process negative shit with or in front of a partner is something for each person and couple to figure out.
You’re completely right and it’s taken me a while to get there. My engineer brain always wants to be solution oriented, but sometimes my GF just needs someone to vent to, and that’s ok!
omfg as an engineer SAME! I’ve struggled with both sides of this somehow. Being a great problem solver gives you some very useful tools, but they’re not always the right tools for the job in interpersonal situations. It’s taken some time to remember in the moment that venting usually contains emotions greater than the specifics of what’s being discussed, and as a partner the emotions are generally the important part. Solutions come easy once everyone’s calm, if they’re even necessary or possible in the first place.
that because you suck at active listening
At the same time, the way I understand issues and connect with people is to try to relate to them and bounce that back. It helps to make sure my understanding is correct, or identify what is missing.
If that includes something that sounds like solutions, sometimes that’s just the natural course of conversation, and people should be just as understanding about the other side of the conversation.
It begins to come across that someone is not looking for conversation, just an audience, and that’s not a happy feeling to be on the end of either. It makes us feel just as ignored. After enough of that feeling long term, we can’t help but feel like we aren’t getting the connection we crave either.
This is a two-way communication issue, and when there’s a breakdown, that’s not always on us as listeners.
I mean kinda is true though? Ignoring an easy fix just so you can keep complaining about the problem makes it feel like you don’t actually care about the issue, you just wanted any excuse to complain at me. On our end, the problem and feelings of frustration surrounding it weren’t “invalidated” until you decided continuing to be frustrated was more important than having a possible answer to the issue.
We want you to stop complaining about it because the problem is addressed and isn’t a problem causing frustration anymore. NOT because we’re just annoyed hearing you talk and want to shut you up and invalidate your feelings about the problem.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
It’s the relationship equivalent of watching conservatives go on and on and on and on about underage pregnancies when multiple institutional remedies are right there, and they proceed to ignore those solutions in favor of getting to continue complaining about the problem.
Why is it my responsibility to validate feelings you yourself are telling me are just kvetch that you actively choose to keep being mad about instead of addressing to not waste energy on being angry.
If anything this narrative of “oh God just shut up” invalidates OUR feelings about being gaslit for trying to fucking help.
This entire comment is a whole new level of whiny misogynist cringe. This person is so incredibly worked up about a woman wanting to be supported and heard that if they weren’t such an asshole, people might actually feel bad for them.
Is it actually wanting to be supported if you don’t want support, just to bitch and moan about a problem that has a solution?
Why should you be supported and heard when you’re complaining about a problem caused by someone not being able to solve 2+2?
There is an answer, it has a simple implementation, it will fix the problem, and you’re getting mad it was offered because “I just want to be heard!”
This isn’t the fucking MeToo movement where women are being spoken over and shut up by institutional violence, this is women deciding feeling valid is more important than addressing the fucking problem that’s making them feel whatever feelings they think need validating more than the problem needs solving.
“Why can’t we just enjoy the problem a bit?” BECAUSE IT IS A FUCKING PROBLEM, IT BY DEFINITION IS NOT SOMETHING ANYONE ENJOYS, JUST FUCKING SOLVE THE PROBLEM AND STOP GASLIGHTING PEOPLE FOR OFFERING SOLUTIONS TO IT.
Just because women do it does not mean it is a healthy and valid response to a situation, and this kvetch about “solutions bad” is the crowning example of this.
We heard the problem, we are supporting you by offering help to solve the problem. You are the one invalidating shit by rejecting solutions in the name of continuing to have a problem to feel valid and complain about.
Sometimes people just want to talk about what they are going through. There’s nothing wrong with that. If they want help solving it, they will ask.
Ok but getting upset if a solution is offered because “can’t you just listen to me‽”
Is well beyond fair to whoever you have conscripted as your sounding board. At that point it’s not just venting about what you’re going through, it’s attacking them for daring to empathize in a way you didn’t tell them you didn’t want.
Huh. An interrobang in the wild.
I hear what you are saying, and I’ve been there with a friend who continues to make bad choices and then cry about the logical results of those choices. However, it’s not that difficult to just say, “That sounds rough. I’m sorry you’re going through that.” There is absolutely no need to be a judgemental asshole about it. Asking, “Are you looking for advice or sympathy?” is super easy. Listening is super easy. You have to ask yourself why you are getting butthurt if somebody doesn’t immediately take your advice or deal with life the exact same way you do.
Why is “that’s rough buddy” take the place of offering help?
Why is it getting butthurt about them not just doing it the way I’d do it when the subject was them getting mad at me for offering a solution at all?
Clearly you are incapable of understanding despite multiple people trying to explain it to you.
No, there’s just nothing worth understanding.
As I said before, just because it’s a woman vs man thing, doesn’t mean the way the women are doing it is healthy, and worth respecting.
We have toxic masculinity, we don’t need toxic feminity to explain why solutions to a problem are bad and you should just shut up and let the problem haver “feel valid” instead of doing anything that materially helps them.
I forgot who, but someone told me i should ask; “do you need an ear or a solution” whenever people come rant about anything. Best tips i heard in a while.
Yes, I started doing this as well with my GF. If she is describing a problem at work or whatever I ask “Do you want me to tell you how I would fix this, or do you just want me to listen?” and like 75% of the time she already knows what to do and just wants me to listen to the problem and then when she is done she feels better because she got to vent, but sometimes she really does want an answer. It works out good for both of us.
I got a better one what makes it less obvious: listen and only offer a solution if they ask for it.
Wow. Just wow. This is such an eye-opener. I mean, with all the comments here.
I had no idea this was a common thing! Up until now I thought only my girlfriend was like this.
Also, this makes me understand a Christmas present I received many years ago. I never understood the meaning of it and never knew from whom I received it and why (so I couldn’t ask about it), it was just under the Christmas tree next to a book I received. This “gift” was just a note on a piece of very thin wooden sheet, it said “Is it necessary to find a solution to every problem? Can’t we just enjoy the problem for a little bit?”
Now it kinda makes sense, although I still don’t know why I received it. Yes, I am a very solution-oriented person, but I’m also very introverted, back then I didn’t have a girlfriend, I had no friends, I didn’t even talk with my family much, and honestly, I couldn’t even really find solutions to problems in the first place. I have no clue what made someone give that to me.
Probably your mom.
Same here. After marriage, I did learned to tone down on this.
People notice you more than you think they do. You may think you didn’t talk to people much but that means it was non zero and people tend to listen.
People will want to dwell on the problem for a bit so they can fully feel their feelings. They feel cut off and stunted if they’re not allowed to.
“Before you start, are you looking for solutions, or are you looking for someone to listen?”
This is an essential relationship skill/concept. Learn it and watch all your relationships improve.
“Are you solution minded or still in the feelings phase?”
I get annoyed because the “solution” they offer is usually the most obvious thing that anyone could come up with in 2 seconds. It’s like, don’t you think I’ve already thought of that? I wouldn’t complain about something if the solution was simple and obvious.
Yes. Hear me out though. Sometimes the stress of the problem makes those solutions easily forgettable. It’s good to have someone ask the obvious questions. It also helps them to find out where you are in your troubleshooting so if they do have something that might work that wasn’t addressed they can provide that as an option. People don’t typically get instant downloads of everything that’s been tried.
It’s probably best to assume if a person has been living with a problem for more than 3 days that they’ve tried everything that can be searched or obtained within 24 hours. And you may have just learned about it mere seconds ago from a simple search on google. Grilling them on everything they tried after they just told probably 3 doctors and all their closest relatives is gonna come off really dismissive and critical particularly of their own ability to problem solve their own problems.
It’s sort of really dependent on what people want out of you, which has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes people just want someone to vent at, or, they want someone to kind of be like “hey that sucks sorry about that”, and actually care about them and their hardships (these are usually the situations in which people are facing some sort of inevitable problem that they have the solution for, but the only solution sucks), what they need is emotional support, and probably a boost to their ego. And then sometimes people have been like, facing what’s an unsolvable problem, and they just need kind of a new, fresh pair of eyes on it. The latter is the circumstance in which people will be more open to obvious solutions, because sometimes people just won’t think of them for whatever reason, could even be as simple as just forgetting that something existed. I think, in either case, it’s usually a decent idea to ask obvious questions, and if you end up stepping on a bombshell (“well I ALREADY THOUGHT of THAT!”), that’s usually more of a like, that’s indicative of something that you both have to defuse in the moment, but that’s also something that you can sort of question why that was placed there, and what the foundation of it was. Usually, though, that’s something you reserve for later.
Sometimes people like to get worked up instead of solving a problem.
It is a positive thing to talk through your emotions instead of bottling it up.
These are not mutually exclusive.
You’re really steering this conversation hard to call people with emotions ‘drama queens’ / just doing it for attention.
We get it. You don’t have empathy. Stop taking it out on people who can feel their feelings. They aren’t the sick ones in this situation.
There’s nuance to that as always.
If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you but I also don’t feel like engaging further after your pissy response
You’re not getting it. The listening is the help
My mother is a steel woman, rational and calm, no bitching, no crying, there is a problem? fix it. You need something? say it, don’t expect others to guess. Words are empty, you care? See what that person needs and help them. Not a fan of corny things, you want love? There is this delicious food, and a hug, now grow up and keep going.
Aaand everything she taught me, has put me at odds with every women I have dated.
I let you in on a secret: these type of people exist in every gender. So do people who are sensitive and emotional. Stereotypes and sexism about that is dumb. Believing anecdotal evidence speaks for a whole group of people is dumb as well.
What works if someone has a preference is to look early into how a person ticks. Instead of focusing on stereotypes and other superficial assumptions (for example).
I’m gonna let you in on another secret, a hard life makes people like my mother, a coddled person tends to be very emotional.
Since you are a rational person and not just emotionally reacting, I bet you have a credible source for these blanket statements. Can you name one, please? Because I can’t find even one.
Are you getting triggered or something? Yes my mother is that way, but in contrast my father is pretty much a manchild, can’t keep control of his emotions.
All the women I have dated doesn’t include you, so stop proyecting yourself on that statement. Maybe I feel attracted to those kind of people in virtue of my own emotional simplicity, just like her. It’s all anecdotal evidence, never claimed that’s the way the world works nor I believe it is. If people read my statement and starts believing that is the way the world works, not my problem.
More anecdotal evidence: when you don’t know what are you going to eat today you don’t have time for bitching and moaning, not first world poverty, but abject third world poverty.
I am not sure if this was supposed to be a response to my comment or got their accidentally ?
I asked if you have a source for this claim, because I couldn’t find any:
a hard life makes people like my mother, a coddled person tends to be very emotional.
a coddled person tends to have very poor emotional regulation in the opposite way your mother is poor at regulating her emotions.
We are all maladjusted
They key is to do both. Listen intentently, respond with something like “wow that sucks, would you like a hug?” And then while hugging say something like “is there anything I can do to help you with this?”
That’s what will give you your answer. If she says “no” then just let it be. If she says “I don’t know” help to guide her to the solution. Ask “what do you think could be done to make it better?” And let the pieces fall in place.
Even if you know the answer, it’s better to let people come up with it on their own. They’ll feel understood and empowered, and you won’t get shit on for being calous. Everyone wins
love languages. Even an action can be relatively empty, in the short term. For some people, physical action takes less effort than emotional, empathetic work due to the potential emotional discomfort involved and/or the vulnerability required. Different people need different things, this is often due to our experiences as children.
You’re not the problem and neither are they.
