To reiterate, the definition of pride is localised to the individual. It doesn’t make sense to be proud of someone else’s accomplishments if you haven’t helped them.
That’s just what you think / feel / opine / believe. Pride has many definitions, and people often take pride in their ancestry which they cannot possibly have helped because they didn’t exist the entire time they lived their life. Humans aren’t fully rational and again, aren’t dropped in greenfield without context on a level playing field. Also, you apparently don’t feel much pride for your heritage, but you still benefit from it. Your achievements and failures are partially possible and/or caused by your birth situation. If, by birth lottery you were born a Palestinian, you might have died in childhood before ever going to school or college.
A parent may feel proud if their child has done well, they have contributed to their success. However, if my college in a different department gets a promotion, I shouldn’t.
Who are you to tell others that their feelings are valid or invalid?
Ultimately, I’d suggest that you take a look inward because I don’t think a lot of your problems with these things stem from a logical place either but also an emotional one. To be human is much more than a fancy calculator, and it’s perfectly fine to feel various feelings without them necessarily being rationally justified. There is only, in my opinion of course, a problem when people start to use emotions to justify violence or other forms of abuse.
But life isn’t generally, and being human isn’t certainly:
I did one good thing = I have earned one smile.
EDIT: Outside and inside and in addition to all of this, I think it’s perfectly fine and even kind of justified to feel proud of others because we are all ultimately only members of one race: the human one. I haven’t marched at LGBTQ+ pride but it wouldn’t bother me to do so if someone genuinely wanted me there for some reason, and I take pride in the positive achievements of lots of other people who I did nothing to help all of the time.
You seem to be assuming a lot about my position, and getting most of it wrong.
My only stance thus far is one of definitions. Yes, I know the definition of “pride” has changed, which I’m trying to illustrate is an issue.
Elon’s “white pride” rhetoric stems from nationalism, which stems from the conventional definition of “pride”, which is:
a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one’s own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired
The pride displayed here is that of perceived inherent superiority, which leads to bigotry.
Rationality and emotion aren’t mutually exclusive. Empathy has flaws, it causes people to become hijacked by emotion. Conversely, compassion is a choice, even psychopaths can be convinced behaving compassionately is in their own self interest.
So, I don’t accept the assertion that feelings are an acceptable metric for evaluating the validity of a claim. I’m convinced it’s wrong to be proud of an identity.
I appreciate your measured arguments here, and they echo my own thoughts over the years. I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating any sort of heritage. I can’t really find fault with any of your assertions, but it’s such a classic “white guy on the Internet” take that it reflexively feels bigoted to a lot of people, I think. It doesn’t make any sense to me when people take pride in their ancestry, but folk can be happy about whatever, I guess, as long as they’re not denigrating others.
I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating any sort of heritage
And I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating the community team or whatever, but that doesn’t make my opinion more rational, valuable, or human than anyone else’s.
folk can be happy about whatever, I guess, as long as they’re not denigrating others.
“Whatever” “I guess”… These words aren’t in here by accident, but this overall sentiment is the one actually worth pursuing IMO without all of the passive aggression.
You and the Aussie don’t seem to understand that you’re advancing Musk’s (and other racists’) “arguments” by equating overwhelmingly positive movements with reactionary, retrograde movements that use co-opted words and rhetorical tricks to pretend they’re the same thing.
And I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating the community team or whatever, but that doesn’t make my opinion more rational, valuable, or human than anyone else’s.
No kidding? Where did I imply any of these things about my own opinion?
You and the Aussie don’t seem to understand that you’re advancing Musk’s (and other racists’) “arguments” by equating overwhelmingly positive movements with reactionary, retrograde movements that use co-opted words and rhetorical tricks to pretend they’re the same thing.
Can’t say that I’ve read all of their comments, but I haven’t seen them doing that at all, and I’d love for you to point to exactly where you think I equated those things.
Can a gay person who has never experienced homophobia rightfully celebrate Pride Month?
Can a black person who was adopted by white parents and has no black cultural influence be proud of being black?
Edit: ya ever wonder why you’re talking about legitimate events for black people and gay people in a thread commenting about Elon Musk’s endorsement of “white pride”? It’s because you got "all lives matter"ed and lost the fucking plot.
Those are not my words, nor do I see how either of these quotes is equating white pride to minorities celebrating their own heritage. You appear to be executing a knee-jerk defense against JAQ-offs and cryptofascists, which I completely understand. It is, however, possible to try to have a conversation about these issues while being neither of these things.
Elon’s “white pride” rhetoric stems from nationalism, which stems from the convention definition of “pride”
You’re acting like Elon or a klansman (same picture.gif) sat down and read a dictionary definition and came up with this. He didn’t.
Rationality and emotion aren’t mutually exclusive. Empathy has flaws, it causes people to become hijacked by emotion. Conversely, compassion is a choice, even psychopaths can be convinced behaving compassionately is in their own self interest.
Of course they’re not mutually exclusive, you were pretending they were by saying someone’s “correct” feeling of pride can only be derived from their own achievements.
Rationality is a man made concept. Humans are not purely or perhaps not even mostly rational.
So, I don’t accept the assertion that feelings are an acceptable metric for evaluating the validity of a claim.
What claim are you even talking about? You’re the one tossing out claims left and right, like it’s morally wrong to go to a pride parade unless you’ve personally experienced homophobia… Meanwhile you’re side stepping the very relevant and obvious thing: that someone acting positively due to unearned pride harms absolutely nobody.
You’re getting confused by rhetoric because you’re overly concerned about the dictionary definition of co-opted words. Just because it’s called white pride and gay pride doesn’t mean that the intentions, the events, the attendants, or anything philosophically backing any of it are remotely the same. Straight pride is practically a homophobic hatred event, gay pride is largely a block party with fun and revelry.
It’s evident you’re arguing in bad faith. I never claimed its morally wrong to attend a pride parade unless one has experience homophobia. I’m out, peace
It’s exactly counter to your main position about how only certain people are allowed to feel pride based upon certain earned criteria. But you do you, bud.
I wish you and people like you weren’t so simply fooled by tricks of rhetoric as you are. But not only is that unlikely to change, you’re likely to continue thinking you’re actually technically correct in some way because you have a dictionary definition of a term and think that’s an argument.
White pride != black pride
Straight pride != gay pride
Black lives matter != all lives matter
Edit: y’all are right, these things are exactly the same because they use similar language in their names… That’s definitely not what a retrograde shit movement would do to try to lend legitimacy to their bullshit… That’s definitely not similar to what North Korea does by calling itself the “People’s Democratic Republic of Korea” or anything. /s
That’s just what you think / feel / opine / believe. Pride has many definitions, and people often take pride in their ancestry which they cannot possibly have helped because they didn’t exist the entire time they lived their life. Humans aren’t fully rational and again, aren’t dropped in greenfield without context on a level playing field. Also, you apparently don’t feel much pride for your heritage, but you still benefit from it. Your achievements and failures are partially possible and/or caused by your birth situation. If, by birth lottery you were born a Palestinian, you might have died in childhood before ever going to school or college.
Who are you to tell others that their feelings are valid or invalid?
Ultimately, I’d suggest that you take a look inward because I don’t think a lot of your problems with these things stem from a logical place either but also an emotional one. To be human is much more than a fancy calculator, and it’s perfectly fine to feel various feelings without them necessarily being rationally justified. There is only, in my opinion of course, a problem when people start to use emotions to justify violence or other forms of abuse.
But life isn’t generally, and being human isn’t certainly:
I did one good thing = I have earned one smile.
EDIT: Outside and inside and in addition to all of this, I think it’s perfectly fine and even kind of justified to feel proud of others because we are all ultimately only members of one race: the human one. I haven’t marched at LGBTQ+ pride but it wouldn’t bother me to do so if someone genuinely wanted me there for some reason, and I take pride in the positive achievements of lots of other people who I did nothing to help all of the time.
You seem to be assuming a lot about my position, and getting most of it wrong.
My only stance thus far is one of definitions. Yes, I know the definition of “pride” has changed, which I’m trying to illustrate is an issue.
Elon’s “white pride” rhetoric stems from nationalism, which stems from the conventional definition of “pride”, which is:
The pride displayed here is that of perceived inherent superiority, which leads to bigotry.
Rationality and emotion aren’t mutually exclusive. Empathy has flaws, it causes people to become hijacked by emotion. Conversely, compassion is a choice, even psychopaths can be convinced behaving compassionately is in their own self interest.
So, I don’t accept the assertion that feelings are an acceptable metric for evaluating the validity of a claim. I’m convinced it’s wrong to be proud of an identity.
I appreciate your measured arguments here, and they echo my own thoughts over the years. I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating any sort of heritage. I can’t really find fault with any of your assertions, but it’s such a classic “white guy on the Internet” take that it reflexively feels bigoted to a lot of people, I think. It doesn’t make any sense to me when people take pride in their ancestry, but folk can be happy about whatever, I guess, as long as they’re not denigrating others.
And I’ve always struggled to see the upside to celebrating the community team or whatever, but that doesn’t make my opinion more rational, valuable, or human than anyone else’s.
“Whatever” “I guess”… These words aren’t in here by accident, but this overall sentiment is the one actually worth pursuing IMO without all of the passive aggression.
You and the Aussie don’t seem to understand that you’re advancing Musk’s (and other racists’) “arguments” by equating overwhelmingly positive movements with reactionary, retrograde movements that use co-opted words and rhetorical tricks to pretend they’re the same thing.
No kidding? Where did I imply any of these things about my own opinion?
Can’t say that I’ve read all of their comments, but I haven’t seen them doing that at all, and I’d love for you to point to exactly where you think I equated those things.
Edit: ya ever wonder why you’re talking about legitimate events for black people and gay people in a thread commenting about Elon Musk’s endorsement of “white pride”? It’s because you got "all lives matter"ed and lost the fucking plot.
Those are not my words, nor do I see how either of these quotes is equating white pride to minorities celebrating their own heritage. You appear to be executing a knee-jerk defense against JAQ-offs and cryptofascists, which I completely understand. It is, however, possible to try to have a conversation about these issues while being neither of these things.
Those are my quotes.
I stopped conversing with them after they misquoted me after replacing “rightfully” with “morally”.
Don’t waste your time trying to change their mind, they’ve already decided you’re the one who’s wrong.
The worst part is we’re evidently all on the same team, yet we’re made out to be Elon supporters.
You’re acting like Elon or a klansman (same picture.gif) sat down and read a dictionary definition and came up with this. He didn’t.
Of course they’re not mutually exclusive, you were pretending they were by saying someone’s “correct” feeling of pride can only be derived from their own achievements.
Rationality is a man made concept. Humans are not purely or perhaps not even mostly rational.
What claim are you even talking about? You’re the one tossing out claims left and right, like it’s morally wrong to go to a pride parade unless you’ve personally experienced homophobia… Meanwhile you’re side stepping the very relevant and obvious thing: that someone acting positively due to unearned pride harms absolutely nobody.
You’re getting confused by rhetoric because you’re overly concerned about the dictionary definition of co-opted words. Just because it’s called white pride and gay pride doesn’t mean that the intentions, the events, the attendants, or anything philosophically backing any of it are remotely the same. Straight pride is practically a homophobic hatred event, gay pride is largely a block party with fun and revelry.
It’s evident you’re arguing in bad faith. I never claimed its morally wrong to attend a pride parade unless one has experience homophobia. I’m out, peace
It’s exactly counter to your main position about how only certain people are allowed to feel pride based upon certain earned criteria. But you do you, bud.
I wish you and people like you weren’t so simply fooled by tricks of rhetoric as you are. But not only is that unlikely to change, you’re likely to continue thinking you’re actually technically correct in some way because you have a dictionary definition of a term and think that’s an argument.
White pride != black pride
Straight pride != gay pride
Black lives matter != all lives matter
Edit: y’all are right, these things are exactly the same because they use similar language in their names… That’s definitely not what a retrograde shit movement would do to try to lend legitimacy to their bullshit… That’s definitely not similar to what North Korea does by calling itself the “People’s Democratic Republic of Korea” or anything. /s