Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”
“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.
This is bullshit. Israel’s response is completely disproportionate. 2000+ children are dead in Gaza.
I don’t see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don’t know what “proportionate” has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.
There’s no “both sides” to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.
How many times can you poke a bear before it decides it’s done?
It’s not an excuse. Israel’s actions are absolutely disproportionate. I can argue either side, but that’s exactly the point. Nobody’s hands are clean. You don’t have to condone Israel’s actions to understand they were provoked.
There can never be peace without both sides admitting some fault. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 9061 wrongs don’t cancel out 1400 wrongs. That’s not how any of this works.
What do you suggest Israel does? What do you suggest Palestinians in Gaza do? Until you think a little bit deeper, you can’t just say dismissive, pithy things that only favor one side.
This isn’t a sports team. You can’t just pick a side and cheer for them no matter what.
I’m not advocating for Hamas, I’m advocating for the non-combatants who just want to send their kids to school.
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Removed for racism. User already sitting out a 3 day ban.
As Martin Luther King famously said, “Violence is the language of the unheard.”
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Israel has killed ten times the people compared to who? Oh yeah, the other “side”, who also has killed a bunch of civilians.
I’m not talking a pro-Hamas position. I’m taking a pro-child position. You don’t give a fuck about people though.
Straight up overreaction to someone saying that the post was right, because it is.
It’s self-referential meaning the western world is complicit in ALL the death there, both sides, because the Western allies of Israel have never forced them to the table to hammer out an actual solution.
What solution can they hammer out? Trying a two state solution again?
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Hard pass on that. I like my democracy.
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Where are you sitting right now?
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In a complete shock to everyone, the guy with the tankie name is all for the deaths of innocent civilians
At least they wear it like a badge of honor, making it easy to identify and ignore them
He’s ready to hunt down the baby settlers and run them over with a T-90
We should give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he’s only advocating for the ~25% (2m people or so) of the Israeli civilian population that’s not native born to be killed? Or maybe only the ~500k Israeli civilians who are >75 years old that were alive to see the 1948 war and creation of the state? Maybe some combination of the two? Surely a tankie can’t be advocating for the genocide of an entire nation?
Edit: Oh he messaged me instead of replying? Not sure if that was on accident but:
No no, you misunderstand me, when I say “ignore” I only mean disregard your opinions, there’s no way I’d miss out on pointing and laughing with everyone else at the genocidal tankies, we have to make sure nobody around here thinks it’s an appropriate opinion to have
They DM’d me too, I suspect mods banned him. Given his account is only a few hours old, I don’t get why he’s not just making another one.
both hamas and the israeli government want war not peace you can’t reason with that
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“issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group hamas. you do not, under any circumstances, “gotta hand it to them””
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Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there’s Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there’s Palestinian civilian casualties.
That’s the whole point of taking hostages isn’t it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.
The military forces of civilized nations don’t consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it’s on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.
This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.
But they won’t do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.
Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.
Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.
Constantly bombs refugee camps, schools, and hospitals This is just war, bro. Yeah we have the 4th most sophisticated and accurate military on earth but we just can’t help hitting civilians who just happen to be a minority in their own land…
Dude, the logical hoops you’ll jump through to justify a genocide is extremely concerning.
Holocaust scholars all over the world have even condemned the bloodshed.
This isn’t the cost of war. It’s punishment. It’s imperialism.
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An ethnostate is one pillar of Fascism, so yeah.
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Buy stocks in Exxon Mobil and help finish us off.
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They would need to have money to do that.
I like your username
When a legitimate target is hiding among civilians, there are two possible responses:
No “buts”. Like it or not, defend it or not, that’s what non-civilized nations do.
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I WILL NOT BE SILENCED - (unless mods nuke my comments)
You’re username is a 6/10, not a nearly as good as SpaceCowboy
We have no reason to unless you break the rules.
Did @[email protected] get nuked?
They started DMing me instead of replying to comments, so I assume they did
Meanwhile, you can just block asshole users on Lemmy.
Shouting matches are half the fun
Yep, genocide not cool Israel. The future will not be kind to you.
But only because they are the ones in power. If the positions of power were reversed, it’d be pretty much the same thing, except Hamas would be the one performing the apartheid and the genocide.
It’s probably true. But it’s still a disproportionate response.
Bullshit made up comment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter
“Violence is the language of the unheard” - MLK
So not bullshit, just something you want to excuse.
If Israel wasn’t stealing the land of Palestinians, there would be no Hamas.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t excuse what Hamas has stated for itself to stand for.
Sure it does. The jews are the occupying force that is committing genocide against their people. You don’t expect them to have an opinion about that?
You seem to not understand what a proportionate response in war is. Israel’s goal is extermination of the terrorist threat in Gaza, their actions are proportional for those goals. Not lost in the calculation is the terrorists saying they intend on continuing their terror attacks on civilians, making a ceasefire all but impossible to institute.
The question of whether or not it’s humane or ethical is a different question that should be debated.
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Watch this My life as a Palestinian fighter - YouTube with a little bit critical of an eye and tell me what you think. This is supposed to be in favor of Palestinians, but what I get out of it is that the mother is proud of the son fighting and dying. What I get out of this is that many Gazans want the fighting to continue, but only when it’s their people fighting Israel. Who do you think put out this video? Do you think Israel is behind it? Or do you think it’s honestly made in favor of Palestine? What’s the purpose of this video and who made it?
How do you propose to kill everyone who is Hamas without killing any civilians?
In war, civilians always die. That’s just reality.
Callous and disgusting that you’d even try to justify that.
Again, how would you suggest they do it? Don’t avoid the question.
If this was World War 2, would you be saying that we shouldn’t kill any nazis if it causes civilian casualties? Nazis, like their Hamas associates, also used human shield tactics.
They have one of the most technologically sophisticated militaries in the world. You think they can’t minimize civilian casualties? The state of Israel is run by fascists who are building an ethnostate. They don’t care about Palestinians.
The cost of destroying Hamas isn’t worth intentionally targeting civilians. They’re blowing up HOSPITALS.
You didnt answer his question. Avoiding it does not make you more right than him.
I’m not answering the question because I’m not drawing the line at no civilians. It’s not my position so I’m not going to defend it.
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Where did I justify anything? I’m pointing out your ignorance is all.
Proportional in the context you’re using it doesn’t mean what you think it does.
You’re probably one of those people who says things like genocide when the population has doubled since 1950, or apartheid when Arabs serve in the IDF, sit as judges in the courts and hold seats in the parliament.
Tensions are high, spreading disinformation like you are doing is a problem that needs to be called out. Notice I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt assuming you’re just ignorant and not doing this intentionally.
None of what I’ve said justifies the actions of anyone either. I’m simply pointing out that accuracy is important and you made a mistake.
You know that they’re are streets in Jerusalem that Palestinians are not even allowed to walk down, right? It’s an apartheid state.
Are those Palestinians is really citizens? There are 2 million Arab Israelis who have access to Israeli society. There are 2 million gazans who aren’t Israeli citizens who don’t want to be Israeli citizens. Therefore, they do not have the same rights as Israeli citizens.
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Removed, keep it civil.
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Were the gazans given the opportunity to become Israeli?
Arabs living in Israel at the time were granted citizenship.
They don’t want to be Israeli because the Israel’s are an illegal occupying force that’s taking over their land.
Bro, you’re cherry picking your information and spreading colonial propaganda.
What is being cherry picked in @S_204’s post?
Proportionality is important in international law which is one of the reasons that the UN keeps calling out Israel for war crimes. Another cool fact in international law is that the threat to national security has to be imminent to strike into another country. They can’t just bomb in retaliation and say they are preventing future attacks.
Big Zionist misinformation here, population numbers going up can not disqualify acts from being genocidal. Also black people participated in South African society in the same way but no one would say SA wasn’t an apartheid state because a minority existed in the army or parliament.
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Oh so having thousands of armed forces destroying borders in a calculated coordinated attack including drones and rockets is not an army?
Read about Hamas. Learn that they’re a small army, coordinated and with levels of commands, platoons, and units.
Stop imagining Israel as being terrorists targeting civilians - they’re an army targeting terrorists who target civilians, and who’re hiding behind civilians for safety.
Are the cartels armies?
If a cartel attacks Mexico, should Mexico just bomb their entire city?
In some capacity yes.
That’s a different question entirety unrelated to if they’re armies or not. 1940s Japan certainly had an army, but did that justify nuking and firebombing cities?
This is nothing like Japan. This is like Vietnam where America invades a country it isn’t supposed to be and “self defences” all over the place
Okay, irrelevant, the Vietcong was also an army.
That’s the wrong question. The right question is if the mexican cartels started launching rockets and slaughtering the U.S.bordering Mexico - then what do you think would happen?
That isn’t even a question, it’s a tautology given how the US is fully supporting whatever Israel is doing.
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It’s fascinating that you’re capable of that kind of thinking with regard to Gaza and yet seem incapable of applying it to Israel, despite being just as relevant.
Ah yes let’s apply it to the side with rights, running water, food, the biggest military in the middle east, backed by the US, given free reign to commit war crimes by the west, deeply racist, most of the population have not lost family in the fight, has fortified bunkers in every house and have no fear of having their house bulldozed to make way for a stronger neighbours population.
It’s like there’s a historically sound reason for that or something…the events didn’t even happen that long ago.
Yes, because of the aforementioned large military. And maybe they haven’t lost someone in the particular fight (although it’s a rather asshole thing to even mention) this is not the first time Israel and other Jews have suffered casualties from surprise attacks.
You say that like it’s an indicator that they’re doing alright. How many people in your area feel the need to have fortified bunkers in in their homes to prevent them from being murdered by people living a few miles away? And how many of those people actually had to use those bunkers in the last month (like many Israelis just did)?
Its like there’s a historical correlation for large armies and fascist states.
But to counter your point, Taiwan keeps on shrinking their army and even dropped conscription despite the even bigger threat of China. They know the US will bail them out just like they would Israel in an all out war. Even looking at all the defending forces in Palestinian or defensive based armies around the world you don’t need a large or extremely well equipped army unless you are looking to invade am area.
Every surviving family or friend of someone killed is another person given reason to pick up weapons and fight. Every person who is under threat of starvation, physical violence and death is a person justified in their right to defend themselves. When there is a 36x difference in deaths and one side facing such brutality and oppression, the other side has no right to claim victim.
When one side has the psychological and physical safety of a bunker in their home and the other has to face the bombs without any protection it absolutely is an indicator that they are doing alright.
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The only reason a terrorist threat exists at all is that Israel has openly said they are trying to genocide Palestinians. Combined with the last 30 years of Apartheid they’ve already done.
How did this recent war start again?
75 years isn’t that recent
Mhm it’s almost like after 75 years there are generations that have been born on this land, and now are the locals.
So you’re for a 1 state solution with equal rights and a government ran by the majority like south Africa?
Sure, or a 10 state solution. Whatever, the number of states doesn’t matter.
I oppose absolute democracy. I would support a representative state with strong constitutional protections.
South Africa is a representative state dude
By Israel running an apartheid state and committing countless war crimes against the people of Gaza. What is your point exactly?
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Do they though?
It’s people like you who are why more children will die. The savage thirst for the blood of Jews will lead to countless Palestinians dying.