The DNC cited a procedural concern, but Hogg said it is “impossible to ignore the broader context” of his criticisms.
I guess the C in DNC stands for Corporation. The corporation doesn’t like when underlings call them out on their bullshit
It mostly stands for ‘Cunts’ at this point cause that’s what most of them are.
Fucking moderates, man. We’re slowly walking towards some dumb, horrifying shit.
Its legal name as used in court documents is the “DNC Services Corp”
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/17-14194/17-14194-2019-10-28.html
I guess the C in DNC stands for Corporation.
Or simply Corruption.
The DNC is the primary reason we live under an authoritarian manbaby, Hogg isn’t wrong
We can’t stand up to Trump, but we can stand up to this kid telling us to do our jobs.
There needs to be an age and income bracket limit for people in government service, these rich geriatric fucks are going to get us all killed.
We can’t stand up to Trump, but we can stand up to this kid telling us to do our jobs.
Holy shit, yes! I’d take it a step further and say “we can’t stand up to Trump, but we can stand up to anyone pushing us to be an actual opposition”. Ten democrats joined the republicans in voting to censure Al Green for having the absolute audacity to yell at the guy shredding the constitution instead of sitting quietly until leaving quietly while wearing a #resist shirt.
We can’t stand up to Trump, but we can stand up to this kid telling us to do our jobs.
Elder liberals telling younger voters/activists to STFU and get in line, then blaming them when turnout sags and conservative democrats lose purple seats, is the tragedy of the modern era.
I think the primary reason is all of the fascists, but sure neoliberalism and inevitable decline etc
Well, democrats can change the latter.
I suppose they tried to change the former by trying to appeal to fascists.
Certainly one of the reasons, but I don’t think it’s the primary one. 'Murica having so many places with a culture that can be summed up as “extremely individualistic and patriotic xenophobes” is what I’d blame first.
Trump only got 30% of possible voters, it isn’t that MAGA outnumbers sane people
It’s that a ton of progressives just decided not to vote this year
The DNC is only another wing of the fascist corporatocracy /Kleptocracy /plutocracy their only function is to protect the capitalis that keeps them in power.
2016 primaries were awful. DNC super delegates kept Sanders out, showing the worst aspects of super delegates. Establishment GOP couldn’t keep Trump out, showing the worst aspects of a lack of super delegates.
That single act doomed us. Bernie would have smoked trump so hard his kids would have changed their name
The supreme court picking George Bush as the winner over Al Gore doomed us.
Failing Reconstruction doomed us.
The first election I ever voted in and I was from South Florida at the time.
I was one of the votes discarded due to ‘hanging chads’
Cynicism began early in me
Nixon not hanging from a noose caused the split in the timeline. His pardon happened around the time when Bernstein Bearenstein bears happened.
Treason. nixon did it, so reagan was like: shit this works.
That is why I get pissed off at the people who blame nonvoters for Trump and say blue no matter who. No. That kind of thinking it’s what lead down this path in the first place. You don’t keep participating in a corrupt system hoping it will get better. You destroy the system
Nah, that’s probably the only thing I applaud the RNC for. It was very clear that Trump was not their choice, but when their voters spoke, the RNC shrugged and said “alright, let’s party.” Where the DNC endlessly schemes and plots and weasels its way into running the footgun. Democrat voters groan “no, not the footgun again! What the fuck are you doing?!” And the DNC says “look, you don’t understand, it’s the footgun’s turn, they’ve earned it. We just need to compromise and blow our legs off one last time. Now is just not the right time to not blow our legs off. Americans just won’t vote for not blowing our legs off. And, I mean, what are they going to do? Vote for the guy with legs? Lol, lmao. Now hand me that gun.”
They argued the same thing in the NY 2016 primary case. You know… the one where 120,000 people in King’s County just randomly got bumped off voter rolls a few weeks before the primaries with no recourse for registration.
These roll Purges occurred all over the country. I got purged during the 2016 primary in California but there was still plenty of time to reenroll despite the lack of warning.
I volunteered to work at a poll and countless numbers of voters were forced to vote with provisional ballots. Which meant they would be thrown away because they weren’t registered to vote (but they had been at that location for years and were registered to vote)
Then the BoE folks all got huffy and “bristled” at the accusation there might have been foul play.
So anyway, that’s how the democrats lost me. I may vote for a dem candidate if there weren’t a complete verminous sleazeball, but i’d vote for them on the WFP line or something.
more or less the same donors as the gop, they arnt different, the only reason some of them are EVEN dems is that they are not right wing enough to be palatable to republican voters. they also make backdoor deals often, it was pretty obvious when mitch was still in control of the senate.
Okay comrade. You know that Communism is every bit as bad as Fascism and that Stalin was a mass murderer right?
Is communism in the room with you? Nobody was talking about out communism
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I admire Hogg for trying to change things from the inside, as it were, but the DNC is definitely complicit in our current slide into authoritarianism. Until they wake up and embrace the progressive movement championed by Bernie and AOC, I have little hope for the mainstream democratic party
Proving him right, by doing more to stop him from running than they’re doing to stop the fascist takeover
Well technically it’s true that DNC are following protocol. Even if Hogg wasn’t running challengers to his own party and insulting them publicly, the DNC would still probably be holding the party leadership chair special election later this year.
They treat dick cheney better than they treat David Hogg.
This is one of those things where they’re following the letter of the law, but I’m 80% sure that they’re only doing so because it suits them.
It’s technically not law because the DNC is a private institution, but it is written down as institution policy, so yes.
They are a corporation. They don’t owe anyone dick. They said as much last time they were in court for rat fucking Bernie.
Finally! The DNC is finally taking action against the…oh never mind.
This whole situation is best summed up by this. If they were putting this much effort into fighting for the actual working class issues they would have won the previous election… Make of that what you will.
Democrats aren’t, and never were, a working class party
FDR?
8 hour work day? 40hr week?
It’s easy to dunk on today’s dems but please don’t write off actual history.
[Indeed, Hogg’s PAC, Leaders We Deserve, recently announced an initiative to fund young primary challengers in Democratic races.]
Hey that is pretty cool. We need lots more people like Hogg and AOC and Sanders.
Trump is on a mission to crash our economy, disappear people without due process, and participate in flagrant public corruption — and voters still trust him more than Democrats,” Hogg said in his statement. “That is a massive indictment of our party.”
Thats a damning statement
It’s damned accurate.
I trust Trump to be trump. I don’t trust the DNC to calculate a tip
He’s right. There’s no two ways about it, and I think it’s nuts that you’ve got DNC enjoyers out here basically being like “okay, but you’re being stupid, I swear if we just ran Hillary/Biden ticket in '28 and campaigned on only some tax cuts for billionaires and only partial suspension of Habeus Corpus, we’d win”
Its a double damning statement.
- how brainwashed and hateful US voters are
- how utterly useless the DNC are at combating it
You cannot reform the party. Either it changes you, or they have you removed.
Yes, the Democrats occupy and monopolize the space for a leftist party. That does not mean the Democrats are leftist, nor ever will be.
I think there’s plenty of Americans that are just fucking sick of both parties and government overreach even if they don’t agree on all left vs right issues.
How about we finally start working towards a 3rd party? All these fucks that scammed Americans by talking about removing unnecessary regulations literally only removed the necessary ones and created some new ones in addition. I vote civil libertarian. Our slogan can be just respect civil rights and liberties, and stay the fuck out of everyone else’s business.
Can’t do shit with the winner takes all, first past the post abomination that is the US system. We need hundreds more senators, absolute defeat of gerrymandering, a dozen more sc justices, ranked choice and the abolishment of the electoral college.
How about we start with a just few 3rd party congressmen? That can’t be too hard, right? 3 or 4 congressmen not beholden to either party. I’m sure there’s at least a couple districts out there that the majority could be swayed if enough focus was put on them.
Then we elect a few more.
Then maybe a senator.
Now suddenly this 3rd party starts getting some attention. It’s still by no means a majority, but that’s enough congressional votes to give them a seat at the table. When votes are so split and close these days, even a small number of votes can throw things out of order. Demands can start being made.
I’m with you on ranked choice, gerrymandering, and electoral college, but I don’t really know how adding more government or senators or SC judges really fixes anything in the long term.
I think the people need to be given more power not the government.
For example, when any government official violates their sworn duties, that should be a much bigger deal than it is. we need to do a better job of holding people’s feet to the fire. When Alito flew that flag on Jan 6, that should have been an automatic chance for the people of this country to schedule a vote and demand his removal. This SC justice for life shit needs some stipulations.
Part of the appeal for more sc justices/more house of rep members, etc is twofold:
-
It reduces an individual lawmaker’s power and (in the house of rep’s case) makes an individual rep much easier for the public to pressure as they will be beholden to fewer constituents per rep (less constituents, the less support you need in order to rally people to oust the incumbent).
-
It makes corrupting the government with money a little bit harder: more reps = more people you need to pay off, and it’s not like every additional vote you need only costs $1 or smth, we’re talking you need to get everyone enough money to keep them on board, which could be an extra couple million/billion than corrupting people now.
That being said: you’re right, we need more than just that. We need avenues to hold votes of non-confidence (which will both allow us to get rid of bad/not helpful public servants, and also force politicians to stop straight-up lying on the stump). We need to institute public funding of elections to keep things both balanced and less-easily corrupted. We need to end gerrymandering. We need term limits.
You’re right, but they said senators, not house reps, for a reason. I have to infer they want hundreds more senators in conjunction with proportional representation being introduced to the Senate. Right now it’s two Senators per state which makes absolutely no sense on any level. The will of less than a million people in Wyoming is equal to the will of multiple millions in other states.
-
Multiparty system does not work. We should just eliminate parties 100%.
Maybe then I can vote for someone who has a chance of winning, because if they have a R or D next to their name now I will not vote for them
How about we finally start working towards a 3rd party?
What do you mean “finally”? People have been trying that over and over and failing for over 100 years. It would be great to have a multiparty system, but there are unintended structural forces in place that will always prevent that. None of us alive today created this system. We are all stuck with it just like you. But ignoring reality just makes someone into a lifetime loser. There is nothing you can gain by making yourself into a lifetime loser.
But ignoring reality just makes someone into a lifetime loser. There is nothing you can gain by making yourself into a lifetime loser.
He says, in a thread about how the party is so devoted to the losing strategy of pandering right and punching left that it’s trying to oust its own vice chair.
As far as I’m aware, most 3rd parties in the U.S. have been some kind of offshoot of the 2 party system rather than an actual uprising of We the People are tired of being led by losers. We all agree on some very basic shit and this other stuff has been a distraction that led us to this point so we could be divided and conquered…
Let’s agree to the basic shit, revolt against these dickheads and rebuild something better as Americans.
Because the parties aren’t the main problem. The entire system they’ve built is the problem.
We don’t need reform. We need revolution. The only real purpose of our involvement in the electoral system at this point is recruitment, and showing people that the system cannot be reformed. I agree we should continue to push third parties and try to create energetic campaigns behind them, with the primary goal being to force the parties to rig it and show their hand.
I think it depends what you mean by revolution, bc DOGE/Yarvin/Thiel and the Heritage Foundation believe what they’re doing is revolution, but really it’s just removing protections for people and creating new regulations that cement their power grab.
They also will scream non stop what they’re doing is to increase transparency, but it’s actually just distracting people by pointing the finger at others and hiding what they’re really doing in the shadows
It’s what the Heritage Foundation did in Russia in the early 90s. Removing protections bc you think they’re inefficient only allows the people they were protecting you from to swoop in and take control just like they were hoping for
I’m speaking of a socialist revolution. Not a fascist takeover.
I don’t care what they want to call it. “Revolutions” serve people. Not demagogues.
I’m speaking of a socialist revolution. Not a fascist takeover.
So a Communist takeover. Not much difference in that and a fascist takeover.
“Revolutions” serve people.
Then how come the Russian revolution and the Iranian revolution and the Chinese revolution all killed millions of people much of whom were selected randomly? Why would an unaccountable government that doesn’t allow people to chose their own leaders be more likely rather than far less likely to “serve people”
ADAB?
ADAR
All Democrats Are Republicans
All Democrats Are Republicans
You mean except for the 100% of Dems who vote against the GOP’s gigantic tax cuts for billionaires?
All Communists are Fascists too.
I wouldn’t say “all” (but I wouldn’t spend too much time arguing against someone who does).
The organization is completely corrupt, but I think a lot of individual Dems sincerely care about people
I’d say that’s true of cops too, but the point of ACAB is that participation in a corrupt system prevents individual virtue
“leftist” is not a synonym for “radical” or “Communist”. “leftist” covers the entire spectrum of liberal-ultraliberal-radical. You are not going to get people to become Communists/Stalinists by redefining words no matter how hard you try. Lenin and Stalin’s biggest victims were the other leftwing socialist political parties, not the rightwing capitalists.
You do realize the irony of telling someone else they cannot define a word while you simultaneously define it. You do realize that, right?
…but you can tell someone they have wrongly defined something while giving them the correct definition. Which is what happened…
You do realize the meanings of words are easily found in the dictionary right?
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/leftist
leftist
noun
- a person whose political position is liberal or radical; member of the left
adjective
- liberal or radical
Clearer Reason as to the main issue:
David Hogg Into the Spotlight
Into these discussions has stormed the 25-year-old Hogg, who has positioned himself as the man capable of steering the Democrats back on course using lessons learned from their recent losses.
Hogg has criticized his own party for what he views as an alienating stance toward men, and cited the perceived obsession with cultural issues as a major factor in the Republicans’ 2024 victories.
“What I think happened last election is younger men—they would rather vote for somebody who they don’t completely agree with, they don’t feel judged by, than somebody who they do agree with, that they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around,” Hogg said during a recent appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher.
Hogg was again thrust into the center of this internal debate after his election to vice chair was deemed to have violated DNC bylaws which encourage gender parity among the party leadership. DNC member Kalyn Free, who lost to Hogg in February and brought the challenge against his victory, said that the committee improperly tallied votes and failed “to distinguish between gender categories in a meaningful way.” In doing so, she argued, it “violated its own charter and bylaws, undermining both fairness and gender diversity.”
To some, this seemed like irony—the party voiding Hogg’s election based on gender-based requirements, after he had criticized it for an overt focus on gender issues. To Hogg it also sniffed of retribution for his wider attempt to recalibrate the Democrats’ focus and party makeup.
Source: https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-dnc-election-david-hogg-2072004
Behead all of them.
First, they came for all the motherfucking politicans. Then they came for the lobbyists, then the CEOs and billionaires and the propagandists and the corrupt judges. And if they haven’t been beheaded yet, they had peace happily ever after!
Jenkins, did you hear that young master Hogg expects us to actually help the Plebs?! Egads, didn’t anyone explain to him that that’s a bit? Jenkins, I need you to get in the private jet and pay Schumer a visit-- no, Jenkins, thirty minutes is much too far to drive-- and also pass along this stock tip. We need to catch this Hogg before the Plebs start getting ideas, like expecting us to work, ha ha.
Don’t ever ask for progressives’ vote again. We’re done voting blue no matter who.
So where, pray tell, do the progressive votes go?
Primary them sure. Try and snag it back. But you won’t turn your next vote red. You know that. And they know that. And I sure as fuck won’t do it either. The DNC can rot. But…
You can and should blame the two party system sure. But if you don’t primary and win. Well. We’ve seen that before again and again.
I’m a progressive that will vote blue again. Reluctantly. Emphatically so. But I will.
The posturing of principals means nothing in our political reality. And it pisses me off. But reality doesn’t care about your feelings.
Primary them sure.
Democratic primaries are kabuki. Trying to oust Hogg is just the latest demonstration.
I no longer vote for neoliberals or for folks who receive aipac money.
Period.
I won’t vote for a republican either.
If they want my vote they have to support policies that I do.
Period.
Blue no matter who is how we got here.
Blue no matter who is how we got here.
No, because Trump wouldn’t have won if that were the case.
I don’t think so. There’s a reason the democratic party is polling worse than Trump. They’re snakebit, even their own voters are disgusted with them. They’ve decided that their optimal strategy for winning national elections is pointing out (accurately) that the other guy is a Nazi and literally nothing else, and they’re still losing, that’s how fucking snakebit they are. There’s nowhere left to go at this point, the plan seems to still be “ratchet right to peel off two more moderate republicans and ask people to be satisfied with just voting against the Nazis for the rest of their lives”, which is a plan that has now failed 2/3 times.
Vote blue no matter who, think about that phrase for a second. That’s basically saying “shut up, don’t think, just do vote for any POS we put out and be happy about it”. Doesn’t seem like very good marketing to me. Do you think the Republicans have to tell their voters to hold their nose, suck it up, and vote no matter how much they hate the candidate? This is investing in loser energy, it’s a shit strategy that’s basically engineered from the ground up to lose.
That’s basically saying “shut up, don’t think
Nope. We are basically saying “Think about how if Trump and the depraved corrupt Republicans win, Israel will implement a full scale food embargo on Gaza, and Traitorapist Trump will give gigantic tax cuts to billionaires, decree massive new tariff taxes on the middle class, turn the entire government into total shit, take health insurance away from 9.7 million Americans, and turn our entire economy into shit.”
Do you think the Republicans have to tell their voters to hold their nose, suck it up, and vote no matter how much they hate the candidate?
They don’t even need to do that because all Republicans already know that’s how they win elections.
Yeah, all the maga people really don’t seem like they’re holding their nose to me.
Nope. We are basically saying “Think about how if Trump and the depraved corrupt Republicans win, Israel will implement a full scale food embargo on Gaza, and Traitorapist Trump will give gigantic tax cuts to billionaires, decree massive new tariff taxes on the middle class, turn the entire government into total shit, take health insurance away from 9.7 million Americans, and turn our entire economy into shit.”
As opposed to the democrats, who will do fuck all until the Republicans win the next election and do all that shit anyway.
They suck, no doubt about it, but fascists suck way, way more. “Vote blue no matter who” is effectively what you have to do in a two-party system, but in reality not voting red is what’s important. And yes, “Vote for the guys who are less bad” is a terrible message and contributes to the fascists winning. But voting is vital (even now, if only at a more local level), and not voting for fascists is extremely important.
Voting for whoever will cause the least harm to the country is the right thing to do. “I won’t vote for the lesser evil!” does not accomplish this and actually goes in the opposite direction. But people are emotional and not practical beings overall, so the guys who are better at appealing to emotions win and we all suffer for it.
“no matter who” means “no accountability.”
Fine, then say “vote against red.” It’s what I’m actually doing, anyway. The system is fucked, but when you allow fascists in power you have even less agency to do anything about it. You ALSO have to hold Democrats in power accountable when they’re in office via calls to your Representatives, protesting, primarying, etc. If you choose to do nothing but vote, you are indeed giving them no accountability.
If democrats want our votes, it’s time for them to start earning them.
The fewer MAGAs that vote the better IMO, democratic candidates shouldn’t make concessions to people like you.
“Concessions to people like me”:
- Public transport
- public education
- public healthcare
I’m not in dire need of any of those. But I’m not a selfish dickhead.
“if i dont get my twains then i wont stop trans ppl from losing their healthcare”
good thing you’re obv too young to vote anyway
I’m advocating for basic things people need to survive (not for myself) and you’re treating it like I want a pony.
Oh, and what an excellent example. Newsom and other corpo dems are abandoning the trans cause to (try to) woo centrists. Progressives aren’t.
What planet do you live on?
I’m advocating for basic things people need to survive (not for myself) and you’re treating it like I want a pony.
Yeah, it’s what centrists do.
Trans people lost healthcare under Biden, and Harris said she would “follow the laws” on trans people in red states.
So that argument is null.
Honestly, maybe it’s time for progressives to take over the Republican party primary and start moving them left .
They basically were until the tea party came in and yanked them back
I’m down with this. Let progressives fuck up another party for a change.
I thought progressives didn’t vote.
They don’t. And then they go around trying to convince everyone else not to vote also.
Because if you vote and willingly participate in a corrupt system, you are giving legitimacy to the system. The only way you can say this system is illegitimate and refuse to be bound by it is to refuse to participate and vote
This is the exact energy you should go and bring to the Republican party and stop bothering us with. I’m certain they will welcome you.
How do progressives fuck up the democratic party?
But reality doesn’t care about your feelings.
Yeah so… uh… That kinda goes both ways. I’ve made this argument before so I’m just gonna copy paste it, but lemme just…
Have you ever heard of gambler’s ruin? It’s the name of a few different results in statistics, but the one we want is this:
In statistics, gambler’s ruin is the fact that a gambler playing a game with negative expected value will eventually go bankrupt, regardless of their betting system.
Now in modern US elections, does your bet have a positive or negative expected value for democracy? Is America becoming more or less of a democracy every election on average? Apply the theorem above to your answer and see what you get.
To change the inevitable result, which is fascism in the United States, you have to change the game in some way, and primarying incumbents and voting blue no matter who is what progressives are already doing.
Your metaphor is flawed. Opting out does not save you anything because voting doesn’t cost you anything in the first place. If you got a free bet, why wouldn’t you take it?
It’s more like we’re on a sinking ship and bailing water. The ship is going down if we don’t patch the hole, but bailing water still buys us time so that we can make more attempts to patch the hole. Except in this metaphor, bailing is something that takes maybe an hour of your time once every two years.
Opting out does not save you anything because voting doesn’t cost you anything in the first place.
The bet here isn’t voting; it’s elections. An election is an essentially random process where depending on the result things change either for the best or for the worst. If you somehow quantify how far America is from fascism (say, in terms of how many Republican terms it would take to go from the situation at hand to full-blown fascism) then you can model elections as a bet where you’re forced to participate and don’t get to choose your stake. Again, under this model (which should be accurate since the conditions for its application are all there) you will end up at fascism unless you change the game you’re being forced to play so the odds are in your favor rather than the fascists’. I also want to point out that this isn’t an analogy; it’s a model. I’m simply taking a principle that exists in one field, making some simplifying assumptions and applying it in another. What I outlined here isn’t a “what if” analogy; it’s one step removed from a mathematical certainty.
It’s more like we’re on a sinking ship and bailing water. The ship is going down if we don’t patch the hole, but bailing water still buys us time so that we can make more attempts to patch the hole. Except in this metaphor, bailing is something that takes maybe an hour of your time once every two years.
I have no problem with the act of voting itself. My problem is with… everything else that happens during election season. The whole idea of unity with liberals (aka Democrats) against the right is evidently a failed preposition, and the reason for that failure is specifically that the Democratic Party is invested in the game’s present state and will force you (or, more accurately, already forces you) to cooperate with them to maintain the game before you’re allowed to be “united” with them. To borrow your analogy, the Democrats are the ship’s captain, who is helping you bail water but only on the condition that you don’t patch the holes (and yes, there’s more than one). You’re not even supposed to point out that neither you nor him are patching the holes. Instead, you and the rest of the crew are supposed to just keep bailing and ignore the rising water level. And to be clear, the bailing isn’t just one thing you do every two years; that doesn’t begin to capture the opportunity cost involved. Your bailing in this analogy is voting drives, canvassing and other outreach on behalf of the Democrats; it’s political donations; it’s suppressing criticism of the DNC (attempts to get the captain to patch the damn hole) in the name of unity against the far-right. The actual voting is only the end of this long string of actions that sap energy, money and credibility from the people who would otherwise be out there actually patching the damn holes.
Okay analogy over, back to the real world. The DNC should’ve been fucking flayed alive when they tried to push a pro-genocide ex-DA on Americans, and instead all they got was progressives hushing down other progressives in the name of “unity”. I’m sure you can think of all sorts of examples of this in action, but here’s one to drive the point: the progressive reaction to the Uncommitted Movement. This was a large movement that had gained momentum in an attempt to push the DNC from proto-fascism and into the sanity, and what did they get from not even liberals, but progressives who should have been their most ardent supporters? “Hold your nose and vote for her.” Not a nationwide solidarity to force the Democrats to back down on their most unpopular policies, not even tepid support or apathy, but active, emphatic opposition. That’s not the stuff of democracy; that’s a dictatorship where you roll a dice every four years to find out which boot will step on your neck until the next election.
I should note: I’m not advocating for passivity or apathy here. This shouldn’t be a reason for you or anyone else to stay home and give up; it should be an impetus to organize, embrace solidarity between workers and take on the capitalists and their supporters. Act, but act according to your own conscience, not according to the DNC’s agenda. This is especially important right now because the Democrats won’t save you from fascism even if they wanted to, but even if democracy and the DNC both survive Trump, next time you be on the side doing the flaying and not the side practicing cannibalism on behalf of your blue donkey overlords.
unity with liberals
Did you not know that “liberal” is literally a synonym of “progressive”. Moderate Dems (there are not moderate Republicans) are not liberals and don’t call themselves liberals.
You should learn what the word liberal actually means. Liberalism is a center-center right ideology and has both historically and now been at odds with progressive politics, up to and including aligning with fascists over leftists. It’s been marketed as “everyone left of center” these days, but that’s just not what the word means as a term. Think of the word "neoliberal ", and remember that neoliberalism is explicitly a return of the laissez-faire ideas of classical liberalism. Regardless, I said “aka democrats” specifically so people who aren’t neck-deep in leftwing politics know what I’m talking about.
Moderate Dems (there are not moderate Republicans) are not liberals and don’t call themselves liberals.
I mean they don’t call themselves liberals, but according to what the term actually means in political science they’re liberals (well, sort of, some are conservatives).
You should learn what the word liberal actually means.
Yes you should.
[Used politically, it means “a person who believes that government should be active in supporting social and political change.”]
https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/liberal-meaning-origin-history
Dems aren’t helping the ship stay afloat. They’re stopping the people from patching the hole because they’re “powerless”. Dems and Reps aren’t the same because they’re equally as bad, they’re the same because they’re on the same team. They’re both shameless fascists.
ok but one of the shameless fascists isn’t deporting innocent people to a prison in el salvador or denying women healthcare
They are doing that. They’re on the same team. Biden didn’t stop any of this. Lol. They’re literally the same team, not figuratively, but they are literally working together to push the same agenda.
This exactly. I have voted for every progressive candidate that has come up on the ballot. And yet every single time the middle of the road Democrat wins. Because that’s where the DNC puts the money. And in the general I always vote for whatever Democrat has won the primary. And quite frankly I always feel sick that I voted for somebody that I wouldn’t vote for if I had a better choice.
So I think I’m going to choose not to vote in the general if the progressive I vote for doesn’t win. I’m tired of a democratic party that is more interested in protecting their position than actually doing their job.
Exactly this. Stop giving the DNC money. Whenever you can send the message to the officials. No progressive platform and change? No removal of incumbents? No money. No vote.
It isn’t _just _ on us to do something. If they too don’t wanna see the fascists win, then it’s time for them to eat humble pie and realize their policies and their positions for the past 30-40 years brought this pig to prom. They have to pass the torch.
Fascism might be defeated again but it will come at the cost of neoliberalism finally dying as well. There’s very little options of anything else working.
Stop giving the DNC money.
Nobody here gives the DNC any money. I agree that would be stupid because there are much better choices. Most of us don’t give much money to politicians and usually only to a specific candidate. But if I was going to right now, I would funnel that money thru people like Sanders or AOC or Hoggs.
I think you should still vote just to show you’re an active voter that they failed to court, but vote for independents, 3rd party, write in, whatever.
Honestly, I think the only solution for progressives is to elect enough independents that mathematically, while a minority, MUST be courted by the establishment parties in order to secure their legislation. Though that won’t do anything for legislation that both establishment parties fully agree on, that’ll still get rammed through.
But what are we even talking about? These are all legal constructs. We’re living post rule of law now. Dictator just flat ignoring courts.
Yeah, that’s basically the situation in Australia. The crossbench is needed to pass anything in the Senate, but Liberals and Labour routinely join forces to pass some truly disgusting shit (most recently an election reform that would reduce funding to the smaller parties, and a takeover of one of the biggest unions in the country).
Like another poster said casting a blank ballet sends much more of a message than not voting at all.
the message:
Make America Corrupt Again
So I think I’m going to choose not to vote in the general
You are going to help billionaires get gigantic GOP tax cuts and increase wealth inequality. Got it.
They’re already getting this. There’s nothing in their way and the current democrats are even helping them do it.
What the fuck is even your point?
And yet every single time the middle of the road Democrat wins.
It couldn’t be that the middle of the road Democrat is simply popular among the majority of the voting population? Nah couldn’t be. Everybody in my family loves when I rant about the benefits of communism at Thanksgiving.
That’s funny.
You know what’s funnier, and not in a ha ha funny way. The way I bring up progressive candidates to people and they have no idea who it is. It’s not about popularity. It’s about how the media, that is controlled by both parties, only seems to report on the chosen few.
The DNC needs to get edgier
The dnc are trying to be “business folk” when their constituents want them to be rebels
I think we need a different color to vote for. Definitely not green, because that party is for shit. But Democrats are functionally useless at this point.
I think I would rather throw my vote away on somebody who challenges the status quo in a progressive way under the Democratic socialist party (or just the plain socialist party) rather than vote for some goddamn Democrat who’s going to uselessly wring their hands and then go home to their million dollar mansion and cry about how unfair people are being to their useless ass.
Voting blue hasn’t helped cause they think it’s your only option so they don’t have to actually do anything to earn your vote other than being “not a Republican”.
FUCK THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY
I’M NOT VOTING FOR ANOTHER MODERATE ASSHOLE
Your maga friends thank you for your service 🙏
If the fascism is going to happen anyway, which it will under the current democratic strategy, I would rather it happen now while I’m young enough to fight and not 10 years from now while I’m old and decrepit. (Well, more old and decrepit.)
If the fascism is going to happen anyway, which it will under the current democratic strategy, I would rather it happen now while I’m young enough to fight and not 10 years from now while I’m old and decrepit. (Well, more old and decrepit.)
LMFAO. Do you have any idea how naive this sounds? More likely than not you would be living under Fascism for the entire remainder of your life. The Germans who voted for Hitler in 1933 and were in East Germany had to wait 66 years until the year 1989 before they were allowed to choose their own leaders again. The people who supported the Communists in China who came to power in 1949 were all fucked for the entire remainder of their lives. And now their descendants 76 years later are still fucked in 2025 because of the foolishness of the people in 1949.
This is just about the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. There is a VAST cultural difference between the US and China and the East Germans were actually screwed by us making a bullshit deal with the USSR.
This is also the same shite argument centrist democrats have been using for the last 25 years. “Vote for us if you don’t want something worse!”
Guess what, I voted for them and something worse happened anyway. So I am done voting for the middle of the road. Because all it has gotten us is the mess we are in right now.
No where they sit their ass at home so the red hats don’t come for us for voting for dems who won’t even do a fucking thing to combat this. If I’m going to go on record as being against the regime it better be for a good reason, and this ain’t it
Vote third party, it’s the only way to end the Duopoly.
By “end the Duopoly” you just mean "help billionaires get gigantic GOP tax cuts’. We’ve had dozens of 3rd parties and they have all been failures. The system has structural forces in place to prevent them from being successful. Nobody alive today created this system. We are all stuck with it same as you. But we recognize the reality that millions will die or become impoverished every time someone like Traitorapist Trump gets elected from his party of corrupt decadents. And we recognize the reality that when the GOP wins it is us who loses, not politicians.
Nah, shaming sensible people into voting blue no matter who has lost the Dems 2/3 of the last elections.
Now it’s time for you to suck it up and vote with leftists
Or do you hate democracy? Because voting for Democrats is just voting for more bIlliONairE tAx cuTs
you wait around until next election and wait for the PR firm that republicans hired to sway you not to vote for anyone. EZPZ
[citation needed]
Insane that this is news to people. With everything we know. That you need this to be cited. It’s why we’re fucked.
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/voter-suppression-has-gone-digital
https://www.wired.com/story/how-russia-pushed-our-buttons-with-fake-online-ads/
So where, pray tell, do the progressive votes go?
Silly wabbit. Progressives don’t vote.
I really like the idea of a tea party style takeover. That seems much more actionable and realistic.
No such thing.
The tea party was just billionaires covered in AstroTurf. They bought the Republican party. It’s asymmetrical warfare, because the left doesn’t have billionaires that profit from our policy goals.
Not to be a doomer, I do think Democrats can be pulled left (kicking and screaming) but I’m not sure how though.
Tea party was partially real. But it was basically petite bourgeois: car dealership owners and the like. This was also the main component of Jan 6th. These people aren’t a huge constituency but there are a lot more of them than billionaires.
I’m going to assign you a book:
Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals by Saul Alinsky
Do you remember when the right-wing dummies were all shrieking about this book, and how Hillary Clinton was mentored by Alinsky?
It’s because they were following the damn advice in that book - it’s like a checklist of what to do to take over locally, then statewide, etc
I’ve been saying that for 10 years and being called a Russian agent and anti-American and MAGA
Screw choosing the lesser of two evils. You have to give me someone to vote for
Then you get what we got last time: the fascists gain power and make things worse for the masses, the Dem politicians continue being rich and are shielded from the consequences. You only benefit the fascists and hurt yourself if you don’t vote for the lesser of two evils.
I think people who are informed but specifically stay home because of Democratic policy positions or vote third party is a relatively small number of people.
It seems to me like far more people just sit out because the Dems are useless. When Harris said the economy was good, people wrote her off as out of touch.
We can argue about whether people should vote for harm reduction all day everyday (like we have been doing). But the fact remains that if Dems don’t present a vision for the future that excites people to come out for them, fascists gain power.
You’re correct. But if someone doesn’t support the fascists and says they’re not voting for harm reduction, they should be called out for it. Don’t help the fascists and then complain when they win.
Let’s say Gavin Newsome runs in 2028 and he supports a Federal law banning trans people from playing sports. That’s “better than the Republicans”, right? So you’d still vote for him? So what reason does he have to support trans people if they won’t lose any votes for not doing so?
How about instead of Gavin Newsome, why not run Mitt Romney? All the pundits are talking about appealing to “moderates”. When you pledge to vote Blue no matter who, that tells the Democrats to go as far right as they can, which means the Republicans can move even further right.
You say people who didn’t vote are helping fascists, but I’d rather call out the powerful people who are doing nothing (or worse).
Yes, I’d still vote for him because it’s better than the Republicans. Harm reduction. Once you have these shitty-but-not-fascist people in power, you do exactly what you said and call them out on their bullshit, call your Congressperson to apply political pressure, primary them, protest, whatever you can. Because now that the fascists are in power, they can and will do whatever they want and you have even less agency to do anything about it than when they’re not controlling the government.
When you pledge to vote Blue no matter who, that tells the Democrats to go as far right as they can, which means the Republicans can move even further right.
And when you don’t vote against Republicans, they can completely take over the government and do whatever the fuck they want. What is that accomplishing?
I have been voting Blue No Matter Who for 20 years, and that has brought us to Trump.
I can’t help but note that you didn’t actually respond to any of my concerns. I understand what you’re saying. Do you understand the counter argument?
I have been voting Blue No Matter Who for 20 years, and that has brought us to Trump.
No, it didn’t. People NOT voting Blue No Matter Who did. That’s why he won.
My understanding is that the counter argument is that Democrats should be the kinds of people that people want to vote for, not just the lesser evil. That would be ideal, but it’s not the reality we live in. Similarly, the reality is that people of all political leanings will usually not vote for the most practical outcome that benefits them, but with emotion. For conservatives, that means their team regardless of anything else - “Red No Matter Who.” For people who are farther left than center-right, that means becoming disillusioned with how poorly Democrats represent them and not voting, even if they are still better than their opponents. Hence, the fascists win.
Why wouldn’t a progressive want to vote blue though? Of the two most likely candidates, they are the least fascist.
Unless you’re going the accelerationist route, it makes sense to Vote blue.
The DNC won’t improve things because their goal is to maintain the status quo
With these actions they prove their goal is stagnation, not progress.
The DNC won’t improve things because…[bunch of nonsense]
Why the fuck would you think that the DNC has the power to “improve things”? The DNC is no different from the RNC. Neither of them have any power at all over any branch of government. The 2 Dem organizations with 100% of the actual power to make laws are the HDC and the SDC.
Why do I think a political party should do things to improve our lives?
Are you seriously asking me that?
Because the Democrats hold a lot of power that they use to keep everything the same.
Why the fuck would you think that the DNC has the power to “improve things”?
Why do you expect anyone to believe they have the willingness to?
I agree, but they are less fascist than the Republicans. So why not vote for them?
Because they have proven they aren’t interested in meaningfully improving things…
I want an option besides collapse and slow collapse lol
I agree. We need time to build a leftist party or to fundamentally change the Democratic party. I’m not opposed to completely rewiring the Republican party if it’s a faster option.
We can get more time by voting for the least fascist option. That way we won’t be sent off El Salvador while we’re trying to fix things.
I think the brands are too toxic at this point.
Like 70% of people say they want more third parties that actually care about the things they do and don’t like the Duopoly.
Yeah, I agree. I think first past the post has not been good. That’s what forces us into this two-party system.
I would vote for a third party if it became more popular than the Democrats or the Republicans, and it was progressive/ leftist.
The problem is getting it over that hump.
We need time to build a leftist party
There have been such attempts over the previous 120 years. They were all failures because of structural reasons.
or to fundamentally change the Democratic party
Yes that would be fantastic and definitely needs to happen. And it will happen sooner or later. The problem is that we need much more “sooner” and much less “later”. We only have so many years to live.
So, in the remaining years of our lives, political we… What? Give up because we can’t organize?
Why should we reward democrats for taking our votes and betraying us?
That’s your problem, thinking you’re rewarding Democrats somehow by voting for them rather than doing damage mitigation for the country. They’re rich and will be fine regardless of who you vote for - you’re only making things worse for yourself by not voting for the lesser of two evils.
You say “Thats your problem” like you think the DNC can win without these people you talk down to.
You say “Thats your problem” like you think the DNC can win without these people you talk down to.
It is our problem. You and me and everybody. Because we are the primary losers whenever the GOP wins elections. Not well to do politicians. They are going to be fine either way.
They can’t. But the fascists sure did thanks to their help.
How? We’ve voted blue no matter who for decades and look where it got us.
Maybe democrats should do something to earn our votes.
We’ve voted blue no matter who for decades and look where it got us.
30 million more people with health insurance? Raising taxes on billionaires instead of cutting them?
Maybe democrats should do something to earn our votes.
Nobody who voted for Harris were trying to do a f*cking personal favor for her. We were all trying to do ourselves and the country a favor. Some other person has to earn your right to permit you to do yourself a personal favor? The rest of us are simply claiming that right for ourselves because we would be fools not to.
Health insurance isn’t health care. It’s a swindle literally concocted by the Heritage Institution to shovel government money to private insurers in exchange for crap insurance. Yes, Project 2025 Heritage Institute.
What a bright, shining example of progress.
Do you get it yet? Democrats are doing republicans’ work for them and holding their hands out to billionaires.
And if they don’t, who will be the ones suffering for it? It won’t be them.
Oh, okay, you win. Voting blue no matter who is obviously the path to a progressive utopia.
It’s more likely to be than letting fascists win, although a lot of work would have to be done primarying the corpos and getting progressives in there. That’s not even a possibility when the GOP has power.
By not fighting the fascists they allow them to run rampant. This is accelerationism.
Neoliberals are neither progressive nor leftist. They are protectors of right-wing ur-fascist policy. It’s past time we accept that the DNC is owned and operated by self-serving, rich neoliberal scum and start finding actual progressive, leftist alternatives.
I don’t disagree with anything there. I still don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to slow fascism down as much as possible. One day of voting seems like a pretty good deal for the outcome.
You can both organize and vote.
The thing about voting for the “least fascist” is you’re still voting for a fascist.
The energy is better spent preparing to remove the fascists. Get a gun, get organized with your community, build up shared resources, and prepare for the shoe to drop.
But like, you should still vote while you’re doing all that
For a capitalist party? Absolutely not. You’re giving them consent to govern on your behalf, and reinforcing their legitimacy.
It grants you slower fascism rather than fast fascism.
One day of voting for Democrats seems like it could prevent a lot of bad from happening. It’s a pretty good bang for your buck in terms of time spent organizing.
As far as consent and legitimacy goes, that’s more of a media thing, not a voting thing.
No, that’s a reflection of the privilege you enjoy personally under Democrats. There are many, many people who have suffered and died under the fascism of Democrats as well.
Once you’re advocating for voting for a genocidal party as ‘harm reduction’, it’s very clearly just an argument of maintaining personal privilege.
Also, the harm reduction argument is made up. Once you compare their actual policies, and not what they campaign on, you’ll see the difference between the two parties is nonexistent. Which is as expected from two parties accepting money from the same oligarchs.
I agree they both are fed by the same oligarchs. And I agree that the fascism of the Democrats have killed people.
But you can’t say the difference is non-existent. Was Biden or Kamala going to start shipping citizens over El Salvador? I think not and arguing that the two parties are the same is very silly.
Also thanks to first pass the post not voting for Democrats is giving more power to Republicans. Whose fascism will kill way more than the Democratic fascism.
Once you’re advocating for voting for a genocidal party as ‘harm reduction’,
Oh hey I’m glad you brought up “genocide”. You remind me very much of Trump and his whoppers. But this gives us an opportunity to review Lenin and Stalin’s genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0967067X97000111
https://www.chinafile.com/library/nyrb-china-archive/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao
https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2010/09/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310
https://www.reddit.com/r/history/comments/ezpp8k/how_many_people_did_stalin_actually_kill/
https://allthatsinteresting.com/how-many-people-did-stalin-kill
For a capitalist party? Absolutely not. You’re giving them consent to govern on your behalf, and reinforcing their legitimacy.
I am glad you agree that consent is important. The Communists ruled Russia for 74 years without anybody’s consent, so I will assume you understand as all of us do that they are every bit as bad as their Fascist allies.
Conservatives have never forgiven Communists for the fall of Berlin.
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You need to find a local socialist group to get involved with. Hopefully that will help deprogram you of the Democrat propaganda you’ve absorbed.
If you get more involved, you’ll quickly realize that the Democrats are more active villains than you currently realize, and are the primary party we’re having to battle.
Already in the social labor party, but the restrictions of a 527 organization seem so… broken? The political party can’t endorse any specifc candidates, pay for campaign expenses, etc. You’d need a PAC for that.
After all of those hurdles, the idea of a third party being viable across all states seem very far away, and with FPTP systems it is very unlikely that it would be able to do anything before people are put in camps for being LGBTQ+ or calling out fascists for what they are.
you’ll quickly realize that the Democrats are more active villains than you currently realize, and are the primary party we’re having to battle.
Wow you guys haven’t changed at all since 1917. This is a remarkable consistency for 108 years. Lenin and Stalin also saw their primary enemies as the other leftwing parties instead of the conservatives. They killed and/or imprisoned literally every member of Russia’s other 2 socialist parties, the Menshiviks and the Socialist Revolutionary Party.
The thing about voting for the “least fascist” is you’re still voting for a fascist.
Good thing I’m voting for a democrat and not a fascist then.
Get a gun, get organized with your community, build up shared resources, and prepare for the shoe to drop.
The thing about supporting a Communist overthrow of democracy is that you’re still supporting a Fascist overthrow of democracy with the same end result.
It doesn’t matter if the party doesn’t change. We can keep sleepwalking into it or crash into it, the result will be the same. We must change the Democratic party to avoid disaster.
I agree, but why not disempower the fascist as much as possible while rebuilding the Democratic party?
DNC Moves to Oust David Hogg After He Says Party Isn’t Standing Up to Trump
This title feels like a bit of a gaslight considering hes being ousted for saying his party doesn’t represent their voters anymore. While not standing up to trump is part of it, its a smaller issue than the truth that the dems stopped giving a shit about their voters long ago.
God it must be so easy to be a republican, just blame everything on immigrants and do whatever you want to them, simultaneously not pissing off your rich owners, and making your dipshit voting base happy. Its a win-win scenario where only the country loses.
He’s actually being made to run for party leadership chair position later this year because of a challenger submitting that they broke party policy, which is true.
The party that successfully argued in court that they don’t have to follow their own policy suddenly become sticklers when they’re not boosting a clinton.
Which is why I will always say the DNC is what gave America Trump and people who voted and supported them when they were backing. Hillary are more complicit than the people who voted for Trump, because you don’t expect the voters to have any intelligence.
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No I’m arguing that IS the case. I feel like i was very clear on that, I think you may need to reread what i wrote.
Apologies, I was half-asleep when I wrote that.
