I heard someone said that, at the end EV will cost you almost the same as gasoline vehicle, if you have to change the expensive battery every so often. Can someone please give me more info on this? Thank you so much.

  • fubo@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    You know what you’ll never have to do to an electric vehicle?

    Replace a stolen catalytic converter.

      • Lmaydev@programming.dev
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        10 months ago

        They weight like half a tonne. It’s unlikely to become common.

        Maybe as common as ATM machine thefts that do happen rarely.

        But they’re not worth nearly as much.

      • LastYearsPumpkin@feddit.ch
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        10 months ago

        The batteries literally weighs a ton, so that means they’d have to steal the whole car first then part it out. Just like any other chop shop parts crime.

      • Vodik_VDK@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Too heavy, too integrated into the design. Might as well worry about people stealing your transmission or rack & pinion (TFW: that’s what your car uses to translate ‘turning the wheel’ into turning the wheels).

  • aelwero@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    A gas car costs twice as much as a gas car after like 100k miles or so… you end up paying for some random ass shit that broke every couple months. Alternator here, transmission there, radiator, head gasket, O2 sensors, rusted out muffler, injectors… it’s not like your gas motor just keeps on trucking forever and doesn’t nickel and dime the fuck out of you as it ages. An EV is mainly just gonna lose some capacity as it gets elderly, and isn’t likely to have random little repairs as often.

    If you ain’t super well off, you roll your shit til the wheels fall off, and with an EV, that’s just going to mean that the Tesla that goes 300 miles on a charge today, in ten years, is gonna be a Tesla that goes 150 miles on a charge, and there’s going to be people that will rock that old ass battery pack for as long as itll keep rocking, and a lot of those packs aren’t actually going to get replaced at the age everyone is claiming they will be.

    Battery pack might be the whole ass cost of the car, but poo-pooing EVs over it is disingenuous if you ask me.

    • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      that’s just going to mean that the Tesla that goes 300 miles on a charge today, in ten years, is gonna be a Tesla that goes 150 miles on a charge, and there’s going to be people that will rock that old ass battery pack for as long as itll keep rocking

      That 150 mile battery pack is still hugely useful with zero refurbishment as a stationary utility power battery. A Tesla model 3 Long Range (330 mile version) is 75kwh. A brand new Tesla Powerwall is 13.5kwh. So that old 150 mile battery is equal to the capacity of 5 and half brand new Tesla Powerwalls.

      There’s already a solar power generating company using old Nissan Leaf batteries to store excess generated electricity, then putting that electricity back on the grid at peak times to earn money.

    • PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      The main counter to that is that EVs are very difficult to repair on your own, so when something breaks, you’re going to be taking it to a specialist shop. While you’re right in saying that ICE components break, let’s not act like electric motors are indestructible pieces of machinery

      • kescusay@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        I have never in my life repaired a car on my own, so that means nothing to me.

        Bought an electric car in early 2020. Costs me a few bucks a months to keep charged, tops. I have spent literally 0 dollars on maintenance for it. There are just plain fewer moving parts. It’s a battery, an electric motor, and that’s about it.

        So that’s 3.5 years (so far) of paying practically nothing to operate a smooth-driving, quiet vehicle that still gets almost 300 miles per charge and operates primarily off the wind power I buy from my utility company.

        I expect to drive this one until it can’t hold a charge anymore, and then I’ll get another one.

      • aelwero@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        How is an EV harder to repair on your own than an ICE? I think you’re wildly underestimating the shade tree tinkerers of the world.

        Sure, an EV contains a bunch of proprietary software and configuration, but so do ICE vehicles, and people have been hacking that shit for decades. They’ll swap out the whole ass controller if that’s what it takes :)

        • gnutrino@programming.dev
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          10 months ago

          They’ll swap out the whole ass controller if that’s what it takes :)

          And we all know the ass controller is the most important part.

      • TheWoozy@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        But there is sooo little to break on an EV. Mechanically, they are very simple machines. The only repairs we’ve payed for on our 2017 bolt has been a set of tires and wiper blades.

      • LastYearsPumpkin@feddit.ch
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        10 months ago

        Home maintenance is the same (but far less needed). Major maintenance might be slightly more difficult in terms of the parts being heavier, but it’s also less common to need to service an electric motor than a combination engine.

    • detwaft@kbin.social
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      10 months ago

      Battery lifetimes are specced as 80% capacity remaining. So a 300 mile range becomes 240 miles. Still highly usable.

    • wth@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      My smaller battery MX Tesla, after 7 years, has gone from 330km to 308km. The degradation is a lot slower than you indicate.

    • 3laws@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      I’m planning on buying a ~ $20k EV and rock it until the battery can’t take me for;m work and back over and I doubt that happens before I sell it to buy a (for realsies) cheap EV truck.

  • halloween_spookster@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    I’ve had an EV as my only vehicle for about 5 years. The biggest cost of maintenance was replacing my tires. Then replacing one of the new tires after I ran over something and put a big hole in one of them.

    The regular maintenance on it has been effectively zero. I don’t have any fluids to change (other than windshield wiper fluid) or other regular maintenance tasks other than tire related things. My parents have had an EV for something like 8 or 9 years and their experience has been similar.

    • Eavolution@kbin.social
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      10 months ago

      Do electric cars not have brake fluid? Should that not be being changed soon in it if you’ve had it 5 years.

      • Terevos@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        I think they do, but you barely use your brakes due to regenerative braking. So you don’t have to change it very often, if ever

        • Eavolution@kbin.social
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          10 months ago

          Ah completely forgot about regenerative braking! I thought the main reason it needed changed was due to age and water absorbance rather than usage though, but again if regenerative brakes are used heavily then the regular brakes losing a little efficiency is a lot less of a deal.

          • MaXsteri@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Brake fluid is hygroscopic – meaning it absorbs water. It’s typically recommended to change it every 2 years.

      • Redonkulation@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Not accounting for rust and weather impact, EV brakes systems last much longer due to regenerative braking from the motors being used before the brake system is engaged.

        • indetermin8@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I wouldn’t discount rust. I’ve had to change my rotors more frequently than pads due to rust (I drive a Prius). That said, I live in a state that oversalts their roads more than an amateur chef.

    • BruceTwarzen@kbin.social
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      10 months ago

      How often do you change tyrea? Also once a year? I always imagined that due the weight thetyres usage must be higher. Right now i work in a neighborhood with a lot of teslas and i saw that almost all their front tyres are absolutely gone.

      • supercriticalcheese@feddit.it
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        10 months ago

        If you live in a cold country it’s twice a year to put winter tyres and then the summer ones.

        Which you don’t buy every time obviously, but still the change and storage fee is going to be about hundred Euros/dollars each time.

        • p_diablo@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I found that a second set of rims and a splurge on an impact wrench paid for themselves in about 2 years.

          Saves a ton over the life of the vehicle!

      • time_lord@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        That’s what happens when you don’t rotate your tires. If you rotate them every 6000 miles or so, they’ll be fine for a while. My stock tires are a year old and still look great.

    • Kerfuffle@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      They found that in a community of 15,000 electric cars only 1.5 percent of batteries have been replaced if you exclude massive recalls […] The team also points out that most battery replacements happen when the car is still covered by a warranty.

      I’m not sure looking at the stats like that is really all that useful.

      There are two situations where the battery replacement happens:

      1. The user forks over the money to replace it personally.
      2. They manage to convince the manufacturer to cover the cost.

      It’s definitely not a given that everyone who wants to replace their battery can and does. This post is about longevity, so presumably most of the time in that situation the person will have to cover the cost of replacement themselves.

      I want to be clear, I’m not arguing against EVs. I’m just saying this article doesn’t really have enough information to draw a conclusion.

      • Zoboomafoo@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        They manage to convince the manufacturer to cover the cost.

        Battery warranties are pretty cut-and-dry, there’s little convincing needed.

        If the capacity is below the threshold, it gets replaced

        • atrielienz@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          This assumes that it’s within the warranty period (or recall period assuming there is a recall). After that the customer absolutely will be on their own for the repairs assuming they don’t have an aftermarket warranty which a fair number of people don’t bother with.

      • nomecks@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Shops are already repairing batteries. All EV batteries are made of thousands of cells, of which individual cells can be swapped by any enterprising individual.

      • Linus_Torvalds@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Unrelated to the entire discussion on cars: This is important! What you just did is so so important. I WANT to believe that EVs are great, and they probably are, but the study seems somewhat lackluster. An someone needa to point it out, regardless of their own opinion.

      • darganon@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        As someone who bought a Tesla because my GTI’s engine died at 95k miles, I’ll take my chances with the electricity

    • cynetri (he/any)@midwest.social
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      10 months ago

      The Nissan Leaf seems to be the only one worth being concerned about. Don’t quote me on this but I remember reading the old ones (like 2011ish to around 2016-17) had poor airflow to cool the battery so they lost capacity quicker

      • atrielienz@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        The mach E has a recall for battery replacement I believe. Also, the Ford Focus electric came out in 2011 and definitely has an open recall for battery replacement, and some of those cars are out of the warranty period. The Chevy Volt was exploding and was recalled. If the problem with the battery happens outside the recall the owner is responsible for replacement assuming they can afford it.

    • PlushySD@lemmy.worldOP
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      10 months ago

      Lol, this is what I want thanks for the link so I can send it to my wife hahahaha ;)

  • 18107
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    10 months ago

    I have an electric car from 2011. The battery has had no maintenance, and hasn’t been replaced.

    So far the car has had 2-3 new 12V batteries, at least one new set of tires, windscreen wipers replaced once, and the air conditioner filter replaced a few times. I’m not aware of any other maintenance done to the car.

    I suspect the car could have driven up to 150km (95mi) when new, and is now down to 80km (50mi) range. It gets driven no more than 10km in a day, so I suspect it will still be useful to me for another 10 years.

    It has saved me a huge amount in fuel, and has barely cost me anything to run.

    • BrainisfineIthink@lemmy.one
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      10 months ago

      You should really change your wipers more. The blades crack and become ineffective with age even if unused. Maybe not every year but every couple years!

      • stealthnerd@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Silicone wiper blades last many years and don’t crack. They’re about twice the cost of traditional but worth it in the long run.

        My current set is from 2018.

        • rmuk@feddit.uk
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          10 months ago

          Also if they’re gunked up quick wipe down with the mild solvent of your choice (I use vinegar) will often give them a new lease of life.

      • Whirlybird
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        10 months ago

        You only need to replace them when they don’t work like they should. No point replacing them before they need it.

      • 18107
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        10 months ago

        I’m fairly certain my car doesn’t have a coolant system, but thanks for the reminder. I often forget these sorts of things.

        • atrielienz@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Out of curiosity what kind of vehicle? Cause most EV’s and Hybrids have a cooling system for the batteries.

          • 18107
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            10 months ago

            It’s a Nissan Leaf, generally known for it’s battery overheating issues.

            I also have the refreshed model of the Leaf. It has a higher density battery pack with more tightly spaced cells and still no battery cooling. It will overheat if driven more than 600km (400mi) in one day. When hot, the rapid charging speed drops to about 20kW.

              • 18107
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                10 months ago

                Interesting. From Nissan:
                “The recommended service interval of the factory-fill coolant is 200 000km (125 000 miles) or 15 years, whichever comes first. Subsequent replacement … should occur every 80 000km (48 000 miles) or 4 years, whichever comes first.”

                I guess I’ll put that on my calendar.

    • Ocelot@lemmies.world
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      10 months ago

      This is great. but maybe factor in if you have solar. I can generate my own free electricity but I can’t generate my own gas no matter how many visits to Taco Bell.

      Even without solar there are lots of places to charge for free (slowly, but it adds up)

      Also gas is way more expensive than that here in CA. And gas prices fluctuate like crazy. Electric prices generally don’t.

      My electric company gives me monthly credits because I let them control when my car charges based on demand. I just set it up to “be ready by 7am”. Combined with solar it makes my charging cost negative.

    • Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz
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      10 months ago

      OMG, my 0.99 L gasoline car is still a lot cheaper than any of the electric options I could come up with. I guess the year of the electric car isn’t here yet. Then again, I couldn’t even charge the car at home, so there’s no hurry to switch any time soon.

      • TheWoozy@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        The availability on street charging for those without driveway is really the only thing holding back mass adoption, IMHO.

        • Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz
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          10 months ago

          I’ve heard that the electrical grid wouldn’t be able to handle it if every car was electric. Not just the energy production, but also the wires buried under the streets.

          • 18107
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            10 months ago

            If every car was instantly converted to electric, the grid would struggle but not collapse. There is a lot of extra (but more expensive) production capability on the grid, and EV’s are being added gradually, not instantly.

            The grid is currently being upgraded to support air conditioners and heat pumps. EV charging can be scheduled for times when the grid is under less load, so EV’s will have a relatively small impact on the grid.

            TL:DR: The grid will be fine.

      • jet@hackertalks.com
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        10 months ago

        For people who don’t have access to charges at home, like apartment dwellers. Owning an electric vehicle becomes a lot less convenient, cuz you’re not getting the efficiency from solar panels, or late night charging. You’re at the whim of the price of fast chargers.

        But the math is constantly changing, it’s good that it’s a viable option for a lot of people. I look forward to a more sustainable future.

        To put on my engineers hat for a minute, I honestly would prefer that we switch over to hydrogen fuel cars rather than electric battery powered cars. Batteries are more e-waste, not recyclable, unlike hydrogen.

        But that’s a pie in the sky dream

        • 18107
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          10 months ago

          Car batteries last more than 10 years in cars, have a second life as static storage for likely much more than 10 years, and we currently have the ability to recycle over 95% of battery materials into new batteries.

          Hydrogen used in fuel cells has a round trip efficiency of around 30% (compared to 90%+ for batteries). If the hydrogen was generated from solar power, we would need 3 times as many solar panels to drive hydrogen cars vs battery cars.

          Most (98%+) of all hydrogen is currently made using fossil fuels. The most common method is methane steam reformation. The methane (natural gas) is combined with high pressure, high temperature steam. The methane reacts with the steam to produce hydrogen and carbon dioxide.
          The carbon dioxide is usually vented to the atmosphere (some places capture the CO2, and use it to pump oil out of the ground where the CO2 is also released into the atmosphere).
          The hydrogen also contains less energy than the methane that was used to make it.

          • jet@hackertalks.com
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            10 months ago

            You’re absolutely right. But hydrogen is the only path for steady-State totally renewable mobile power. Batteries are consumables, yes the time horizon is long. But they are consumables. Hydrogen is totally renewable. Yes hydrogen manufacture today is usually not renewable, but it can be. We have all the Lego pieces to do it

            • 18107
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              10 months ago

              What’s your definition of consumable?

              I would have thoughy that recycling almost 100% of a battery into new batteries would be considered renewable.