Thereā€™s definitely some additional nuance (like a pronouns in bio/username situation) but this should cover the broad needs of anyone who is approaching this with good faith.

  • rbn@sopuli.xyz
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    5 days ago

    In German it feels completely random.

    A table is masculine. A castle is feminine. A sausage is feminine. A boy is masculine. A girl is neutral. A fire is neutral. ā€¦

    Not sure if thereā€™s any meaningful rule behind.

    • robador51@lemmy.ml
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      5 days ago

      Actually, MƤdchen (meaning ā€œgirlā€ in German) is a diminutive. It comes from Magd (an old word for ā€œmaidā€ or ā€œyoung womanā€) with the -chen suffix, which is a common diminutive in German.

      The -chen suffix makes words grammatically neuter, which is why MƤdchen takes das instead of die, even though it refers to a female person.

      Iā€™m not German but the same applies to the Dutch word for girl, and weā€™ve the same rule for neutral. By the way, ā€˜magdā€™ in Dutch means virgin (maagd to be precise), which sounds incredibly inappropriate to be going around calling someone; little virgin (/ĀÆ ą² _ą² )/ĀÆ

      • stray@pawb.social
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        5 days ago

        Sorry if you already know this, but it sounds from the wording of your post that you might not know that ā€œmaidā€ or ā€œmaidenā€ means virgin also.

        • robador51@lemmy.ml
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          4 days ago

          No need to be sorry. I didnā€™t realise, in Dutch I donā€™t think that connotation stuck for the equivalent, meid. That simply means girl.

        • psud
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          4 days ago

          ā€œmy maiden auntā€ means an aunt who never married (and itā€™s presumed to be virginal because what other option is there /s)

          So yeah

    • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 days ago

      Some non binary people use the pronoun ā€œtheyā€ in arabic, but unlike english it is exclusively meant for plural. And in arabic, verbs also are conjugated with amount, So you just canā€™t say ā€œThey ateā€ in a singular form, you have to explicitly mark ā€œateā€ in plural.

      Itā€™d be like saying ā€œthey ate(plural verb)ā€. It sounds very weird but thereā€™s not much better.

      • hannahliberty@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        5 days ago

        Thereā€™s a similar ā€” though very localised ā€” thing in English with ā€œthemself.ā€

        The singular form is used, but itā€™s far less common than the plural form ā€œthemselves.ā€ I often hear ā€œthemselvesā€ used to refer to one non-binary person and it always sounds weird.

        I guess we have to work with what we have. Is there an alternative in Arabic, like neopronouns?

        • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          5 days ago

          Your comment made me try to think of one, and all I got was a headache.

          In arabic everything is gendered. Even the most simple pronoun ā€œIā€ changes the form of the sentence based on your gender (ie masculine: ā€œana juā€™anā€ fem: ā€œana juā€™anaā€

          Even the numbers and verbs are gendered. To try to add a new gender would be rethinking the entire language.

          But in Arabic masculine pronouns are considered normal. Even with feminine objects like the sun, you can use a masculine pronoun ā€œhua kabirā€ He (it) is big. So most enbies I know of just use masculine pronouns. There may be an alternative I donā€™t know of. Itā€™s an interesting yet complex topic.

          • FatCrab@lemmy.one
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            5 days ago

            Isnā€™t there a dual case (as in, specifically for two of something) in Arabic? Or is that primarily a formal thing?

            • fxomt@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              5 days ago

              There is. Itā€™s absolutely necessary, no exceptions at all. Itā€™s one of the only languages that really use it. It just adds to the complexity lol

    • hendrik@palaver.p3x.de
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      5 days ago

      As far as I know there isnā€™t any rule to learn. Grammatical gender is a wild mixture of several things, sometimes it has something to do with the ending of words and sometimes with attributes of the things, if it has like agency, is an inanimate object, or is an abstract concept. Sometimes itā€™s completely arbitrary and sometimes there are rules to it like with group of people. But there is no way of telling, you got to memorize it. In any way, grammatical gender has nothing to do with biological gender. And Iā€™m pretty sure thatā€™s not itā€™s origin. Though, we try to link it to biological gender in case of people. But even that has exceptions, and it doesnā€™t really work with group of people etc.

    • Successful_Try543@feddit.org
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      5 days ago

      Unlike for girl, das MƤdchen, which is a diminutive (of die Maid, a virgin young woman) as it is ending with -chen and thus, is of neutral gender, I doubt if rules for the other examples do exist:

      • Die Wurst (the sausage), female ā€“ der Durst (the thirst), male
      • Die Burg (the castle), female ā€“ der Zwerg (the dwarf), der Berg (the mountain), male
        • Successful_Try543@feddit.org
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          5 days ago

          Doesnā€™t matter, as you elaborated more deeply on why das MƤdchen has neuter gender.

          BTW: The use of (das) FrƤulein (miss), again a diminutive; ā€˜little womanā€™, in German, to refer to an unmarried woman has come out of fashion since ~50 years and now may be perceived as insulting as well.
          MƤdchen is no longer perceived as a diminutive of Maid or Magd, as both terms are more used in a historic context, and thus, it stands on its own.