- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Donald Trump has said that Palestinians have “no alternative” but to leave Gaza due to the devastation left by Israel’s war on Hamas, in effect endorsing ethnic cleansing of the territory over the opposition of Palestinians and the neighbouring countries.
Speaking as he prepared to host Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, on Tuesday, Trump repeated the suggestion that Gaza’s population should be relocated to Jordan and Egypt – something both countries have firmly rejected.
Trump claimed Palestinians would “love to leave Gaza”, telling reporters: “I would think that they would be thrilled.”
You must log in or register to comment.
In 1940, the Nazis’ plan was to relocate all Jews to Madagascar.
Just 2 years later, they started exterminating them systematically.Well, maybe Israelis should leave Palestinians country instead.
The amount of hatred against phantom leftists that on the one hand lost the Dems the vote and on the other were too weak to have their demands considered is crazy.
No, these people didn’t lose you the vote. They don’t even exist in this ambivalent form. It was everyday citizens that heard Democrats push the same racist border talking points Trump spewed last election and went “Hm, if even the Dems say this is a problem, I’ll vote the party that talked about how evil Migrants were for decades, the GOP”. It’s people tired of increasingly struggling to make ends meet and the Dems saying everything will stay the same, while Trump promised them change. We know that he just means destroying the last remnants of social security nets for poor people and everything that stands in the way for oligarchs making kaijulllian dollars. But people are stupid and desperate. Why can’t the Democratic party be held to a higher standard than whatever this is?
Accelerationism has made things worse for everyone. Now we have a US president who has declared his intention to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip of Palestinians. If you want things to get better then you have to act in a way that is useful to that end. That means voting for parties that are to the left of fascists and that have a chance of winning. In the US, that’s the Democrats.
Americans making this about Trump vs Kamala is getting really really annoying. I mean, we get it, you are pissed off at each other. We’ve read the same arguments dozens of times already, and at this point it is getting extremely tired. It sucks the oxygen out of every conversation. Is this what the discourse is going to be around Palestine and Israel the next four years?
Single-issue voters, when EVERYTHING was at stake, deserve all the hate they get, but are too stupid to understand. The worst kind of trumpers, ones that don’t think they are.
Removed by mod
In fairness, this is BS. A leaked Israeli paper from early 2024 stated that that IDF and the Israeli’s government overall goal WAS to remove all people from Gaza. Once and for all, if they could get away with it. The fact they systematically destroyed whole towns and places of culture educates us and reinforces that this was the plan all along. Trump is an Israeli puppet, nothing changes there, but the removal of people and the destruction of Gaza was the Israeli plan all along. This was known.
It is THEIR land. Their home. Why should they be shipped anywhere? That is an outright crime.
Source on that leaked paper please?
I believe they’re referring to this paper.
A chilling reminder that we are currently at the “Madagascar plan” stage of the Palestinian genocide.
Trump is just saying the quiet part loud. The Democrats aren’t any different. The last 15 months of genocide proves this.
Americans need to face facts, your country is a bloodthirsty empire that steals the resources, freedoms and conspires against oppressed people.
Hey at least the genocide will be over! Trump is so much better than Kamala on this!
Removed by mod
I searched the link you posted and did not find a single mention of Kamala?
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
The vice president doesn’t have the power to overrule the president in any capacity.
Removed by mod
This article is about an American president declaring his intentions to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. This article is very clearly about American politics.
Thank God there’s finally a solution
Removed by mod
Jesus fuck you really think it was MSM libs that opposed you here.
Anarchist, know more than you, and it was completely evident this would happen which is objectively worse. Stop the cope.
Removed by mod
Well, I knew this. A pragmatic anarchist who advocates for the better option. I’m anti-fascist before I’m an anti-statist. Give me liberalism any day of the week vs what’s coming. (Thx again eejit)
Removed by mod
Lemmy.world is dead. Fuck the mods, fuck the Dems.
Rofl. Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza. Trump literally saying he wants to expel the remaining Palestinians and take their land for himself.
You will never admit you were wrong. You will go to your deathbed self assured with yourself that you never compromised on your ideals no matter what actually happens to Gazian Palestinians.
If it wasn’t abundantly obvious to the rest of ya’ll before, these soapbox “never genocide” bad actors never gave a single shit about what happens Palestinians.
Trying everything except:
- not sending weapons
- supporting UN actions to stop it
- sending peacekeeping forces
- sending relief supplies
- not supporting a rogue nuclear nation
- financial embargo on Israel
Check their comment History. They’re not here in good faith at all. Just call them out and move on, but they don’t deserve a debate on this.
Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza
What a bold lie. Biden vetoed UN votes to stop the blockade. He defended the Israeli military shooting unarmed Palestinians who approached the blockade and approved of Israel blocking the investigations of the deaths of NGO workers.
You could argue Biden was more in favor of peace than Trump is, but in practice he didn’t differ from Trump’s previous term on Israel. His record is clear.
Who do you think is paying for the blockade?
Removed by mod
Rofl
Red flag number one, laughing about genocide.
Biden/Harris trying everything they could to circumvent the blockade to get supplies into Gaza
Except applying diplomatic pressure, Except taking military assets and delivering the supplies (besides the stupid symbolic airdrops that didn’t even come close to meeting requirements and killed a bunch of people). Except stopping arming, or even threatening to stop arming, the military that was blocking those supplies - in contravention of international and US law. Except Antony Blinken literally falsifying reports to Congress about “Israel” blocking supplies, because that would legally implicate the Biden administration for continuing to arm them.
Trump literally saying he wants to expel
“Saying”. That’s the problem with you. All you hear is words. You don’t read bills. You don’t look at arms shipments. You don’t read the history. You look at headlines.
What did i just say?
“This genocide started under Biden, with his support, and is continuing under Trump, with his support.”
They absolutely obliterated Gaza with Biden-supplied bombs while he sat there with his hands over his eyes going, “I don’t see anything wrong!” And then after two weeks in office, Trump goes, “oh my god, it’s totally destroyed! We’d better ethnically cleanse them.” while literally sitting next to Netanyahu. And in your brilliant brain, you don’t see the plan at work here.
If it wasn’t abundantly obvious to the rest of ya’ll before, these soapbox “never genocide” bad actors never gave a single shit about what happens Palestinians.
You are the one laughing in a message about their genocide. Look at my message. Do I sound like I’m fucking laughing?
You should be ashamed of yourself.
ROFL
Removed by mod
Engage with honesty and integrity and compassion, or stop fucking responding to my comments.
Removed by mod
Bro it isn’t worth it. I respect what you are trying to do, but Lemmy is an echo chamber on these things. You are completely right in what you are saying, but you’re wasting your time commenting here.
Clearly, if Kamala had won she would have personally resurrected every dead Palestinian and single-handedly repaired all the infrastructure. Let’s conveniently ignore that she was Vice President in an administration that circumvented Congress multiple times to deliver arms with less oversight, that (almost) every US elected official has vocally supported Israel’s actions for 70+ years, and that Kamala herself committed to nothing of substance on the topic.
Wow… this is almost every logical fallacy rolled into one comment.
Bravo!
Removed by mod
It’s crazy how easy trump and his buddy netanyahu played you guys in a way that it benefited him. The American left completely splintered into subgroups that all hated each other and nobody was good enough to be an ally. If you were slightly right or even left of their firm views, your help wasn’t wanted. Just a bunch of left leaning voters slinging shit at each other and NOT voting. Meanwhile the right was unified and laughing at you guys, way to go. You shot yourself in the foot and call it a win cause you got blood on the democrats.
The same democrats you are now demanding should save you from all this shit you guys enabled.
Sincerely, a Canadian.
Why are you blaming the people for not supporting genocide? Shouldnt the focus be on the supposed progressive party that did everything to enable the fascist party winning, because they refused to stop the genocide, acknowledge the economic hardship of working class people and all the other things a progressive party should do?
The US has a fascist and a far right party. The far right party is enabling the fascist party and they are still doing it right now with voting more and more of Trumps people into elected government positions.
And if there had been more pressure on the Democrats prior to the election, they might had been forced to abandon the genocide and some of their oligarch donors. Trump couldn’t have played this, if the DNC wasn’t supporting his game at every step of the way.
First they kept lying straight about how Biden was totally fit for office, as everyone could see him blitzed out of his mind. Then they put Harris who ran on “vibes”, downplayed the economic hardship for working class people and denied any sincere discussion with people opposing the genocide. Finally they brought on the war criminal and mass murderer Cheney to really drill home the fact, that the party has no ethics and only cares about money and power. Just that they like to use soft power on their own citizens, rather than hard power. And as good joke to the end Biden talked about oligarchs but claimed there to be good billionaires vs. the bad billionaires.
Stop blaming the people. Blame and fight the oligarchy that is represented in all of the political elites and their billionaire lords.
You got played, plain and simple. Trumps friend starts a war, knowing you idiots would pull the “both sides” crap and let trump win. Great job with your anti genocide stance that has now guaranteed the destruction of Gaza.
My take is that you Americans just can’t help this entitlement you have that the entire planet belongs to you. Neither of your political parties supported your side, so your solution was to support the far worse fascist? Maybe don’t make it an election issue if neither side is on yours. Maybe don’t make another county’s wars your country’s election issues.
Talk is cheap. If you didn’t vote you directly sped up genocide. This was predictable and obvious for anyone not posturing from their warm homes on social media. Perfect was the enemy of better or at least slower at the direct and tangible expense of real Palestinians. At least you can all spend your time trying to defend the move instead trying to prevent an obviously fascist government from doing it. Those likes though.
As it stands currently there is much more aid getting into Gaza and much less Palestinians are murdered than throughout all of Bidens presidency since Oct. 8 2023 until a few days before he left office.
The idea that things would be better for Palestinians under the current DNC elites and who they put into power has no empirical basis.
If you didn’t call for fighting against the Biden administration over its support for the genocide, but now call for fighting against the Trump administration over it, your reasons are not related to the genocide. You cannot accept the genocide by one administration and reject the genocide by another administration. In this case you simply do not consider the genocide an important issue.
And this is crucial to understand. In regards to the genocide in Gaza, but more generally to the US being a murderous and racist empire, the Republicans and Democrats are both pillars of maintaining this status quo. And we see again right now, that many Democrats are eager to support the Trump administration now, instead of fighting it. Because they want to maintain the empire for the oligarchs. They just fight over the flavor of oligarchy.
So the solution will not come from helping the current DNC elites maintain power. It can only come from removing all current political elites and the oligarchs who they represent.
…because of a ceasefire Biden admin spent months brokering. It’s like you all don’t realize time exists. 🤦♂️
The same ceasefire that was on the table since April and was sabotaged by Israel repeatedly with no consequences from the Biden administration. And before that there were other ceasefire initiatives, that the Biden administration did not push Israel for. Also Biden himself praised how his team worked together closely with Trumps team in making the current ceasefire (that gets violated by Israel regularly) happen.
Finally Biden and Blinken kept repeatedly lying about Hamas not wanting a ceasefire, when it was Israel sabotaging the ceasefire negotiations, while Hamas kept saying they agreed to the proposal.
You simply cannot reject all the empirical evidence and flee into some idea of the actions of Biden to be somehow better, leave alone justifiable. More than 50,000, realistically more than 100,000 murdered Palestinians and the destruction of almost all of Gaza prove the contrary.
Trump now claiming that Palestinians would need to leave Gaza, because it became unlivable, screams to ask who made it unlivable. And there is more than 17,000,000,000 $ worth of bombs, that Biden delivered to Israel to make this destruction happen, as an answer to that.
Trump is speaking the quiet parts out loud. But Biden was steadfast in making it happen. And he and Harris kept emphasizing throughout the election campaigning, that they will stand by Israel no matter what. The reality is that both the DNC and the Reps want this genocide. They want to expand the US empire for their oligarchs. They will absolutely murder everyone who stands in the way of the empire, unless they are stopped from it.
And this is not a new story. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan… Palestine is just another item on the list of bipartisan murder and destruction.
Removed by mod
A now Trump is sending our children to die in a foreign land so he can enrich himself further. Slow clap to all the “winners.”
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
This is the most accurate assessment of the whole situation I’ve seen.
Removed by mod
Honestly thank you for being here and writing this. The “but Kamala” comments are super hurtful to me because I remember how the Americans have been treating us ever since. My entire family is displaced from Palestine, had to abandon studies in Syria, Iraq back in the day, had to flee again from Kuwait, my friends and acquaintances together have lost hundreds of family members. We have lost family members and ongoing trauma from having lived under occupation. It’s unbearable and you can’t even do therapy because it’s still going on, you can’t get closure.
I don’t know a single Palestinian out there who hasn’t lost family or friends, or who has family or friends who moved abroad for good.
We’ve been suffering from ethnic cleansing, apartheid, collective gaslighting since 1948 and we’ve been facing violence and terror since even much longer. As if it would make a difference to us if the person who’s literally providing the means to annihilate us is saying nice words while doing the opposite? Trump is escalating our annihilation and we never doubted that, but the Gaza genocide alone has been going on for almost 1.5 years and there was no Trump.
Many people here really don’t seem to care about the actual people. The same way we aren’t human to Trump & the Zionists, I don’t feel human when Harris supporters use Palestinians to say “I told you so”.
Removed by mod
Aaaah. Now you want to work together. Imagine that! When we asked you all to help keep this from happening, we were told to take our genocide supporting asses and go fuck ourselves.
Now, you’re wanting to play nice? Naaah. I’m calm as a stone too when I tell you that if you didn’t vote, or protested with a bullshit third party loser, you did this.
And we deserve to be angry about it.
Aaaah. Now you want to work together. Imagine that! When we asked you all to help keep this from happening, we were told to take our genocide supporting asses and go fuck ourselves.
I wasn’t on Lemmy since ~late 23 until after the election. Who is “you”? It’s not me.
My specific quotes at the time looked a lot like what I just wrote. Pointing out that the power of the people is in choosing their own candidates, not being handed them by the media and party apparatuses. That the two parties are visibly cooperating on genocide and that the only meaningful course of action is for the people to overthrow them.
I’m sorry, did someone else just say this?
Get your shit together so we can actually fix this.
That not you pretending there’s a “we” here? Because again, if you voted third party, or stayed home- you are openly admitting that you know nothing about the threat we faced, about how elections actually work, and about what the word “we” means.
There is no we that I am a part of that includes you. We tried to stop this. YOU didn’t.
You didn’t try to stop shit. You watched a genocide and voted for the same people committing it, because the only thing that mattered to you was your own ass. You weaponize marginalized people to act like you’re the hero of the story, but you only care about yourself. People who care about justice and have their entire lives know damn well that the entire system needs to be replaced.
Our only chance is unity. Even if I fucking hate people like you. That’s always been the case. That’s been the only chance out of a system where even the “opposition” supports genocide for our entire lives. Whether it’s 2024, or 2028, or picking up the rubble in 2032. But you know what destroys unity? PEOPLE WHO FOLD INTO THE SYSTEM AND DESTROY OUR UNITED FRONT AGAINST OUR OPPRESSORS.
What specifically did you do to try to stop it other than rant and rave on the internet and not vote for certain people?
I didn’t vote for a single person that committed genocide, so stop with the false accusations and… answer this:
Did you stay home when the rest of us voted to stop trump? It’s a simple yes or no.
And you’ve no place to speak of unity when you stood against everyone that stood against trump.
No, it’s unity AGAINST mass murderers. Not unity SUPPORTING them. Even if there’s two of them and one of them is 5% worse!
And I can already hear it. “You only had two choices!” Then I reject your stupid fucking choices.
Some of you all are just in full freakout mode these past two weeks. I’m calm as stone. Know why?
Because none of Trump’s executive orders personally affect you or anyone you love. Must be nice.
Unfortunately it’s not that way for everyone. Many of us are trying to figure out how to survive the next four years without dying to a preventive illness or ending up in a concentration camp, so I’m not sorry if us “freaking out” offends you.
Removed by mod
No, because I have decades of trauma that you people are just beginning to feel.
As I went on to explain in my comment, which for some reason you felt the need to just selectively quote and then reframe in some completely bullshit way.
Oh, so now it’s “get the fuck over it”? Both sides are totally the same!
I don’t think so, bebe. You motherfuckers will NEVER be permitted to live this down. This is YOUR fault. We will make you choke on it.
Not even fucking remotely what I said.
Removed by mod
So America will take ALL Gazans, right, right?
So…. Are both sides still the same? Asking for a friend.
Removed by mod
Put the rhetoric aside, and the answer is yes. Israel stole a lot of land from Palestinians under both Democratic and Republican presidents and kept them under an oppressive apartheid system depriving them of their rights. Both parties vetoed UN resolutions to stop or even condemn the practice.
The Israeli government proposed annexing the West Bank in violation of international law, and while one president said he disagreed with the idea, he said he’d back Israel if they did. The other one said he’d support the idea and back Israel either way. Putting aside the rhetoric or intentions, the action is the same. That’s why Palestinians aren’t cheering when one party wins over another in US elections, because they saw what happened when republicans or democrats won; their situation didn’t change. If you feel otherwise, go visit and talk to them like I did.
Alright. So let’s assume for the moment that you’re right, and both parties would do exactly the same thing regarding Palestine. Just for the sake of argument.
Then they’re still not the same.
Would Kamala have handed entire departments of the U.S. government over to Musk? Would Kamala have signed a bazillion EO’s, taking away people’s rights? Would Kamala send thousands of people to Guantanamo? Would she have allowed ICE to raid schools or hospitals? Would she be systematically erasing transgender people from public life? Would Kamala be scrubbing databases and removing information (CDC for example), or making people waste time to delete certain terms from every database and website because of “woke” or “DEI”? Would Kamala have taken the U.S. out of the WHO? Or the Paris Agreement? Would Kamala be threatening to annex Greenland? Or start trade wars with allies? Or do petty shit like removing the option for regular Americans to file taxes for free online? Or pardon 1500+ violent idiots, at least 4 of whom have already been commiting new (and running from old) crimes? Would she install an antivaxer, who also promotes raw milk, to Health and Human Services? Or abolish the Department of Education?
Would she, would she, would she?
They. are. not. the. same.
And you repeating the same tired bullshit over and over and over will not suddenly make it true. You can try to convince yourself that what you did was the morally right thing, but in your own words: put aside the rhetoric and intentions. The consequences are on you.
But anyway, we both know that Kamala would not be the same regarding Gaza. Never would she have said she wants to “take over Gaza” and “own it” and to turn it into the “Riviera of the Middle East” to create “thousands of jobs.” She would never have proposed the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think she would have done anything to actually help Palestinians, aside from some symbolic stuff or vague threats she will never act on. Somehow Americans seem to just love Israel, whatever horrific shit they pull, they’ll always side with Israel.
But “both sides are the same” is a blatant fucking lie.
It was a rhetorical question. The answer is demonstrably no.
Removed by mod
Both sides aren’t exactly the same, but why don’t you want more differences?
Sides could be irrelevant of we replaced First-past-the-post voting with a more representative electoral system. The solution is more democracy, not gleefully telling people they have no choice but to vote for your preference.
Videos on Electoral Reform
First Past The Post voting (What most states use now)
Videos on alternative electoral systems we can try out.
We know.
But that wasn’t the point, was it?
Yes, they’re doubling-down.
I’m calling it, this era will be worse than the bush era when it comes to American atrocities.
What the fuuuck, the United States of America is going to own a part of the Gaza Strip. Are we restarting colonialism?!
Do you think places like Puerto Rico and American Samoa are states or colonies? Do you think they get good political representation? It never ended lol
As if Israel would let the US take what it (wrongly) considers theirs.
American colonialism and imperialism never ended.
History will not be kind to either Netanyahu, or the Biden/Trump presidencies.
This will mean fuck all the to Palestinians who became “displaced persons” just so the Israeli’s can have their own Lebensraum.
The rest of the world needs to get off its ass and ensure Gaza is rebuilt on Israel’s shekel for the Palestinians like a modern day Marshall plan. And ideally prosecute a couple of people for actively advancing genocide.
The rest of the world needs to get off its ass and ensure Gaza is rebuilt on Israel’s shekel for the Palestinians like a modern day Marshall plan. And ideally prosecute a couple of people for actively advancing genocide.
Except remember, those are America’s shekels being spent.
Well, they keep vetoing things that would help. Like calling it a genocide…
I mean, we should also be paying. We had an integral role in the genocide.
This is completely fucking shocking. I hope all the Uncommitted folks are proud of themselves.
EtHnIc ClEaNsInG iS bEtTeR tHaN gEnOcIdE.
It’s different. Not “better”.
Not different. The Clinton admin invented the term whole cloth in order to not have to get involved in Rwanda.
Please delineate the differences.
Nono you see, Trump loves Palestinians, he’s moving them to a safe space so they don’t get genocided again.
Their land? Well he will take care of it in the meantime… What a humanitarian guy! /s
People really seem to think there is some sort of major dividing line between ethnic cleansing and genocide and I do not get it.
The dividing line is how good your PR is.
It is not different. They used genocide to ethnically cleanse Palestine.
While your equivocate, people are literally dying.
But as long as you feel ok.
That’s literally been the last year and you felt fine the whole time.
Please, tell me more about how I feel.
Notice how all those bot accounts that were so active leading up to the election have completely vanished from the internet now? Yeah.
notice how all the dnc drifters are now partying in Hawaii instead of fighting for their voters ?
They’re still a few on .ml claiming Gaza/Palestinians are better under trump. Absolutely nothing will convince them otherwise
Not all people with bullshit opinions are bots. But I think the bots make those people think their opinions are more valid than they actually are, which causes them to be more active.
Removed by mod
The difference in the PoliticalCompassMeme subreddit is night and day. One of the few places you can still bully fascists without getting banned.
Why did anyone bring that shit hole here???
I’m sorry, but were the democrats stopping the thing?
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
News: something horrible has happened in Gaza.
a bunch of people on lemmy: I was so right.
You’re reading news about people being ethnically cleansed and you’re patting yourselves on the back. What in the fuck.
The establishment US and the ownership class are all-in on this genocide. We are exactly where we would’ve been if Kamala had won. They all support Israel. The democrats just had to do some surface level finger wagging because they knew they were relying on the votes of a bunch of people who see how genocide for what it is. They were lying to you and you’re acting like Israel and the Palestinians aren’t on the same exact path they would’ve been had Kamala won.
You all are sick for taking these horrible stories as some kind of victory. The ownership class is pitting you against republicans, and you against the people who didnt vote exactly like you did in an election. And why was that? Because the people you voted for were enabling a fucking genocide.
As was said elsewhere, history won’t be kind to Biden, trump, Kamala, and Netanyahu. But it won’t be kind to the people who were looking the other way to vote for the enablers.
We were handed a shit sandwich. We all had zero good choices. So some people decided they couldn’t bring themselves to vote for enablers of genocide. That isn’t an incorrect decision. Stop fighting the people who—I mean, I’m assuming(?) you don’t support the genocide…—want to see the genocide end. Because what could you possibly be getting out of that but all these back pats you’re giving yourself?
Oh fuck off. Kamala wouldn’t have been cheering for ethnic cleansing.
If you have two choices and one is less bad, you choose the less bad one.
Nah, she would have just continued to do it quietly, just like Biden did. You people are fucking monsters man. Absolutely no sympathy for the Palestinian people.
And not murdering our country and doing permanent long term damage…I’ll take the trade and hope people can work against it. Noone is going against it now. Morons.
Nobody was going against it before. What don’t you guys understand about this?
Ask a Palestinian how they feel about your sympathy
None of these people bother to talk to Palestinians. They don’t have to. They know what the simple little people over there need.
Look below your comment and see what a Palestinian thinks. And then kindly shut the fuck up with your false sense of superiority.
You mean what one single Palestinian, if they are in fact Palestinian, thinks.
As far as a false sense of superiority, I have no sense of superiority at all. There is no doubt in my mind that I am the most inferior person you have ever talked to.
You do know that we also have internet and stuff right? None of us congratulates you for voting the Democrats. You people are sick for using us to bully people who didn’t vote for your party.
The genocide unfolded under the Biden administration and the ethnic cleansing and apartheid already happened under Trump, Obama, Bush, Clinton and whoever was before that. To us you are all the same. Trump is a horrible person and he’s saying the quiet part out loud, but that doesn’t make all the other politicians any better.
Sorry about all these people man. And I am so fucking sorry about what’s happening in your country. Been protesting it for 15 or so years now in Canada and it seems to have done fuck all. And you can’t even talk to liberals about it because they’ve gone totally mask off about caring about you guys. I don’t know what to say man.
Yup, all the bad shit was happening no matter who got in. So you chose between keeping the US running and having a chance for change or installing the 4th Reich and you chose the latter.
I am not American and I don’t live in the US. I am Palestinian so I chose nothing. I just had the questionable luck to be born in a place where Zionists wanted to build a colony.
Poster said ask a Palestinian and here I am. You chose what you believed was right for you. But don’t use me to justify that.
Ask a Palestinian in Gaza how they feel about Biden providing “Israel” enough explosives to kill a million people.
What specifically have you done to help Palestinians other than not vote for certain people and berate people on the internet?
“Vote for candidate A who supports genocide.”
“Vote for candidate B who supports genocide.”
“Don’t vote and be loud about it so that in the next election, the losing party is hopefully forced to have a candidate that doesn’t support genocide to get your vote.”Which one of those 3 has at least a theoretical chance of helping (even if it may be too late by then)?
I am not saying it was worth it, considering how much worse Trump is on most other issues. It probably wasn’t. But if Palestine is the only issue you care about, it makes sense to not vote.
So the answer is nothing. You’ve done nothing.
Not one phone call, not one form e-mail, let alone actually go somewhere.
How many Palestinians have you even talked to about their needs and desires?
I’ve contacted MLA’s and MP’s about it for every single federal and provincial election for the last 15 years as well and going to protests regularly to stop this shit. It doesn’t work because liberals won’t also pressure politicians and instead would call out leftists for not supporting the right genocide candidate.
Ah right, because US politicians care so much about calls and e-mails from Europeans who can’t vote for them.
So that’s the difference? The fact that trump is saying it out loud?
So between a clearly labeled rat poison box, and one that says “probably not rat poison,” the right choice is the one that’s saying it’s not?
Because the genocide was in full swing when Biden was in office. They made some minor surface level pauses in specific types of bombs…and then started shipping them again. They cut the amount of weapons, and then upped it again.
I’m not saying trump is not worse. But you people are entirely missing the point if you think people who wouldn’t sign their names to a genocide are the ones in the wrong.
You all obviously missed the point further down my comment, where I said stop fighting people who want to end the genocide? Because, that’s what you want, right? If it is, you wouldn’t be doing what you’re doing.
Dude just stop. I’m going to hold my tongue…
On what? On how much better you think Bidens and Harris support to Israels genocide was? I would prefer you’ve stop rationalizing genocide.
Buddy, we’re all impressed that you know what Gaza is (finally).
Oh, i see, you where always a bag of air. cool cool.
There was far more than Gaza at stake. Clown.
Oh? Well that clears them of all guilt!
Stop framing this like this is on the people who didn’t want the genocide to happen. It’s such a weird victory lap I see people here taking. Without fail.
Our blue conservative “allies” want nothing to do with representing any of us. That’s why the way forward is pushing for electoral reform so the democrats will be forced to actually compete for our vote.
I get the feeling dems are so frail and fragile from using First-past-the-post voting as a crutch for so long that they wouldn’t be able to compete. They certainly can’t compete with the circus that is the republican party.
Fucking embarrassing.
Democrats know keeping 3rd parties from participating is a existential struggle for them. They are clearly willing to sacrifice the USA over giving up this hostage scenario.
Unelectable.
Choice was the status quo and pushing towards a solution or palestines almost immediate erasure to violent cheers. Nothing to do with being ‘right’, about hoping yous aren’t completely cooked and see sense. Just as far gone as MAGA unfortunately.
“My candidate was the right choice and you’re wrong. You’re basically maga.”
You have to see how insane that is.
I’m not saying trump isn’t worse. I’m saying if you people cared about the genocide, you wouldn’t be trying to throw anti-genocide people under the bus. You just wouldn’t. You would be working with them toward a solution.
The other powerless people aren’t your enemy. The ownership class that is committing and profiting off this genocide is. But you all are taking aim at the underclass because it gives you a high horse to ride.
That is wrong. That’s my point. But you all just doubled down in the face of that sentiment.
I’m an anarchist dumbass I can just see the reality. Yous are as gone as maga. Victims of propaganda and acting against your own (and the palestines interests).
You aren’t anti-genocide. As we told you before the election, your outcome of your stance is pro genocide. And now the Palestinians have to pay the price for your stupidity.
That’s a depressingly binary outlook for an anarchist.
Are you sure you’re an anarchist? Because thinking that there was either the choice to vote for one party or “you’re brainwashed” just doesn’t exactly scream anarchist to me.
You’re overlooking my entire point to make a binary, deterministic point about only one decision being right in this scenario. You’re an anarchist telling people that f they didn’t vote for a political party complicit in a genocide, that they’re just as bad as the genocidal forces? There is legitimately no sense to be found in this.
I’m more of a Chomsky-esque anarchist myself when it comes to voting. And even I don’t see how you could make this claim. Under normal circumstances, I would be with you between trump and Kamala. But there is a fucking genocide happening, in the US’s pocket, and there were two pro genocide candidates on the ticket. Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
You’re throwing the people who couldn’t stomach the fact that a genocide would’ve been done in their name had your candidate won under the bus? Not those who wouldn’t listen to the millions of people telling them they’re wrong and blindly kept supporting the slaughter? With historians and the world community and the activists screaming that we are witnessing a Nazi-esque ethnic cleansing, you’re not faulting the politicians who only see the opportunity for influence and government contracts?
You’re faulting…activists and peacemongers. For not voting for your candidate?
I just want to be sure I’m understanding your position here.
Don’t come at me with some binary explanation that “well the other side is worse,” I want you to do your best to shed that two party mentality to think about this in the larger picture, and then reaffirm your point for me, here.
Neo-proudhonian mutualist with a dash of agorist praxis via non-violent counter-economic ®evolution.
Changing the system by voting is not possible. The best we can do is pick the one closest aligned with our values, that will allow us to effectively organise (vs Trump turning the military on protestors/leftists), buy the Palestinians some time (vs literal cheering for ethnic clensing).
Faulting the people against the genocide for the scenario being our reality, and not the people who wouldn’t break with the idea that the genocide was something to support? You’re not an anarchist, you’re a bootlicker.
They’re statists and authoritarians—I don’t expect them to listen to reason, and I can’t change that. My criticism is directed at those who actively pushed for a worsening of the genocide by enabling that screwball to take power, rather than supporting actual anti-genocide leftists who understand that, flawed as it is, liberalism is still preferable to outright fascism. You should know better. Instead, you keep shifting between shill gambit, baseless accusations and bad-faith comparisons.
Chomsky also acknowledged pragmatic short-term engagement with existing structures (e.g., voting for the lesser evil) while aiming for long-term abolition of oppressive institutions, FYI.
In the 2016 and 2020 U.S. elections, he argued that it was morally imperative to vote for the Democratic candidate because the alternative would be worse for marginalized communities, climate policy, and global stability.
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting
Conclusion: by dismissing a “lesser evil” electoral logic and thereby increasing the potential for Clinton’s defeat the left will undermine what should be at the core of what it claims to be attempting to achieve.
I’m going to throw so-called anti-genocide people under the bus because it’s very clear that most of you didn’t do dick about it and thought that being jerks to people online and not voting for certain candidates was all that was needed to be done, while I was working my ass off in emails, on the phone and in person.
And I get berated when I bring that up by so-called anti-genocide people too.
Whatever you have to tell yourself I guess, right?
80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?
I think the only difference is that Trump would cheer on the cleansing while Kamala would have tut tutted about it.
Kamala isn’t dead. She hasn’t fallen off the face of the Earth. Has she released any statement even now condemning the idea? She doesn’t even have to fear AIPAC anymore. She has nothing to lose in condemning the idea. If she won’t even release a statement condemning it now, what makes you think she would have lifted a finger to prevent it if she had been elected?
That was the whole point of the uncommitted movement. The only difference between Trump and Kamala’s Israel policy is that Trump vocally supports war crimes, while Kamala quietly supports them.
The point is that the people who were attacking Biden for his Israel policies were just Trump supporters (and literal bots) that were masquerading as passionate Israel supporter. They didn’t give a shit about who would be best for Palestine, they just wanted to get Trump elected.
We know this now by the silence from those people now. End game was achieved when Trump got elected.
Is there silence? I see plenty of comments routinely downvoted to Hell on this topic. People just downvote the dissenting voices and then pretend they don’t exist.
Ooh, a statement. Well that’s all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now. Everything we’re discussing on this thread has become pointless, because the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there now controls all branches of the federal government. It’s gonna happen, and we’ve run out of ways to stop it after this last election. You may as well demand your pet cat make a statement, it will have as much effect.
Ooh, a statement. Well that’s all she, or anyone else who supports Palestinians getting to stay alive and in their homes can do now.
What was she doing while running for president? She couldn’t give a proper statement even then, just weasel words that clearly still showed support for israel. Words are all democrats ever have while they continue to kneel to the oligarchy (or be part of the oligarchy themselves).
the side that wants Israel to take both Gaza and the West Bank and violently remove all the residents there
Funny that you think this sentiment is contained to only one of the two major parties in the US. Their actions speak otherwise.
Your vote is the only power you have. That means you should use it as effectively as possible. Which means you shouldn’t only use it on the ideologically pure, you also use it for people who are more in that direction than the alternative.
The result of this last election is someone who supports a Palestinian state lost, and someone who supports total Israeli domination won. Your takeaway that something else happened is rare and is not the takeaway of the media, the voters, or the parties. Palestine is now dead in American politics and support for Palestine in any form will now be seen as a liability, that is if any Palestinians are left after this term. Don’t shoot the messenger.
80% of Israelis support ethnic cleansing of Gaza. If they actually attempt it, what makes you think Biden/Kamala would have tried to stop it?
It’s fucked up that you think they aren’t attempting it right now, or for the past year and a half.
That would be even more damning for Kamala.
The “uncommitted folks” had nothing at all to do with this. You should’ve been uncommitted in the primaries if you don’t actively support genocide. Who you vote for in the generals is a different matter, but are you seriously saying people who supported more progressive options over biden when there was literally no danger or downside to it are responsible for trump? Bc they committed the sin of empathy and supported palestine? Even if they still voted kamala?
no downside
effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
make it make sense
Nothing is being thrown away in the primaries. Literally nothing anyone did there hurt biden. Voting uncommitted meant you got to let biden know you support palestine without hurting his chances in the generals
What? The people who didn’t vote for her and/or advocated others do the same on the basis that they’d be equally bad for palestine.
I think you replied to the wrong comment m’dude.
effectively throwing your vote in the bin for a candidate that has zero chance of winning
So Biden and Harris? What even is your argument here?
What primary?
Last winter/spring. The one Kamala didn’t win, because Biden was the one running.
