Green Party candidate Jill Stein is gaining ground among Muslim-American voters in three critical swing states: Michigan, Arizona, and Wisconsin, according to a recent poll by the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR).
Stein leads Vice President and Democrat candidate Kamala Harris in these states, with 40 per cent support in Michigan, 35 per cent in Arizona, and 44 per cent in Wisconsin. This surge in popularity appears tied to Stein’s vocal criticism of US support for Israel during the ongoing genocide in Gaza.
Liberals downvoting this would rather plug their ears and cover their eyes instead of confronting their issues and calling on Kamala to sanction Israel.
every thread from now until December
Don’t worry everyone, just one more damage control vote and things will all be fixed. The democrats pinky swears. /$
Kamala isn’t president yet. You can call on her to sanction Israel as president, without also pushing another candidate.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump, and if Trump wins then Palestine is really truly f’d anyway.
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid. Those are extreme positions that have nothing to do with Israel-Palestine, and many of those interested in voting for her are likely not even aware of those stances.
She’s the VICE president! We can already judge her actions and make pretty accurate judgements on how she will act as president based on what she is currently doing. Which is aiding genocide.
Being the VP by itself doesn’t give her any authority to make decisions concerning the Israel-Palestine conflict.
You can criticize her on the basis that she’ll likely continue the same kinds of actions Biden has already taken in the conflict, which has involved support for Israel, but also some sanctions against Israel, ceasfires, and calls for a two-state solution. I’m under the impression that if Biden was truly unconditionally pro-Israel, that the conflict would be over by now in the most violent way.
The fact that she’s at the highest levels of Biden admin is itself an endorsement of the policies of the administration she’s part of. She absolutely can be judged on that basis. On top of that, everything she has said publicly clearly indicates that she’s all in on the genocide. She even repeated debunked October 7th rape claims at the debate. There is no question of where she stands. It’s the height of intellectual dishonesty to continue pretending otherwise.
smh just because I was Hitler’s personal attaché doesn’t mean I agree with Hitler’s policies it wasn’t like I had the authority to make those decisions myself while I helped engage in the diplomatic and administrative duties to facilitate them
I’m under the impression that if Biden was truly unconditionally pro-Israel, that the conflict would be over by now in the most violent way.
He literally sidestepped around congress twice to shovel guns and bombs to them faster than even the bloodthirsty Zionists in Congress could — who were already themselves bipartisanly moving to do the same.
He 100% wanted Gazans wiped off the face of the earth before the elections hit. Don’t make yourself such an easy mark for the most despicable racketeers, murderers, and liars that billionaire and arms-dealer money can buy. These democrat politicians, just like their Republican colleagues who work for the same class of people, would disappear both of us and our entire families to one of the countless bipartisan CIA blacksite torture camps around the world before showing real humanity toward the working class and the victims of their imperialism. There is never any reason to defend them.
He literally sidestepped around congress twice
I appreciate the source, I was not aware of this.
That said, has Biden sidestepped Congress since these sales to send additional weapons to Israel? These sales happened just 2 months after the assault on Israel, and just a few weeks apart from one another. It’d be nice to know if any other sidestepping occurred in the following 9 months, the bulk of the conflict.
Edit: added quote
Kamala isn’t president yet. You can call on her to sanction Israel as president, without also pushing another candidate.
She has promised to always keep sending Israel bombs. She can promise to sanction Israel if she wants to regain votes she is shedding by promising to continue genocide.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump, and if Trump wins then Palestine is really truly f’d anyway.
Jill Stein’s platform is a lot better than the Democrats, votes for her pull the DNC to the left. If Trump wins, he will indeed continue the genocide started under the Democrats, but so would Kamala.
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid. Those are extreme positions that have nothing to do with Israel-Palestine, and many of those interested in voting for her are likely not even aware of those stances.
Then tell people what she stands for. For what it’s worth, disbanding NATO is the single greatest thing any American President could do for the Global South, taking a firm stand against Imperialism.
She has promised to always keep sending Israel bombs. She can promise to sanction Israel if she wants to regain votes she is shedding by promising to continue genocide.
She has not promised to “keep sending Israel bombs”. She has said that she would continue to arm Israel, but a) she would have to support Israel so far as Congress continues to apportion aid to Israel, and b) she has also repeatedly stated that she wants a 2-state solution and to enact a ceasefire.
Jill Stein’s platform is a lot better than the Democrats, votes for her pull the DNC to the left.
I disagree with this. You’d think that voting for Jill Stein would pressure the DNC to go further left, but if Trump wins then it sends the message that the progressive left can’t be trusted to vote for them, so they’ll go back to appealing to moderates. So the gains created by giving Sanders/AOC-types more leverage in the party and nominating Tim Walz for VP (the most progressive pick out of everyone considered) would be lost.
If Trump wins, he will indeed continue the genocide started under the Democrats, but so would Kamala.
I believe the assault on Palestine would be accelerated under Trump. You can call it lip service if you want, but at least Kamala has repeatedly called for a 2-state solution, meaning she’d continue to do the bare minimum req’d by Congress as far as supporting Israel would be concerned. Trump has never supported a 2-state solution, verbally or otherwise - the guy even moved the Israel embassy into Jerusalem, against the suggestion of virtually all his foreign aid experts. He has more interest in stoking this conflict than not.
For what it’s worth, disbanding NATO is the single greatest thing any American President could do for the Global South, taking a firm stand against Imperialism.
I disagree very, very strongly. I don’t see how this “takes a firm stance against imperialism” because Russia is 100% the aggressor of that conflict. They had no legitimate reason to cross into Ukraine’s border and open fire, other than to further imperialistic ambition. The whole point of NATO is to discourage that ambition.
She has not promised to “keep sending Israel bombs”. She has said that she would continue to arm Israel
lol
Site tagline material.
Copied from my other reply:
I’m sorry, but “saying that she’d continue to arm Israel”, which would literally be her job if Congress apportions funds for her to arm Israel, is not equivalent to “promising to give Israel bombs”. The keyword “promise”, to me, suggests she would do anything her power to aid Israel, even if she doesn’t have to. I’ll accept any constructive criticism of this take, but not a strawmanning that strips away the context that it’s literally the law to do what Congress says in this case.
Here’s the thing, taking your paraphrased quotes as accurate (and I believe they are) she is not appending any condition on arming Israel. She did not say “If Congress apportions funds, I will arm Israel,” [let alone “If and only if,”] she said “I will continue to arm Israel,” without any conditional, which Biden has demonstrated the President can do at least to some extent through unilateral executive authority in addition to Congress being able to do it. Therefore, the statements are equivalent. I therefore maintain that “lol/lmao” is a valid response to claiming they are different.
She has not promised to “keep sending Israel bombs”. She has said that she would continue to arm Israel
Lmao
I disagree with this. You’d think that voting for Jill Stein would pressure the DNC to go further left, but if Trump wins then it sends the message that the progressive left can’t be trusted to vote for them, so they’ll go back to appealing to moderates. So the gains created by giving Sanders/AOC-types more leverage in the party and nominating Tim Walz for VP (the most progressive pick out of everyone considered) would be lost.
Historically this isn’t the case. The DNC only throws the left a bone if they need to.
I disagree very, very strongly. I don’t see how this “takes a firm stance against imperialism” because Russia is 100% the aggressor of that conflict. They had no legitimate reason to cross into Ukraine’s border and open fire, other than to further imperialistic ambition. The whole point of NATO is to discourage that ambition.
We aren’t talking about Russia and Ukraine, though NATO did provoke that. NATO itself is an offensive alliance that has plundered the Global South, period, without needing to reference Russia nor Ukraine. Ask anyone in the Global South what their opinion of NATO is.
> Lmao
I’m sorry, but “saying that she’d continue to arm Israel”, which would literally be her job if Congress apportions funds for her to arm Israel, is not equivalent to “promising to give Israel bombs”. The keyword “promise”, to me, suggests she would do anything her power to aid Israel, even if she doesn’t have to. I’ll accept any constructive criticism of this take, but not a strawmanning that strips away the context that it’s literally the law to do what Congress says in this case.
> Historically this isn’t the case. The DNC only throws the left a bone if they need to.
Do you have any sources for this?
> We aren’t talking about Russia and Ukraine, though NATO did provoke that. NATO itself is an offensive alliance that has plundered the Global South, period, without needing to reference Russia nor Ukraine. Ask anyone in the Global South what their opinion of NATO is.
This segment of the discussion IS about Russia and Ukraine, because it’s what I raised at the end of my first post.
In any case, do you have any sources for this? Because from my perspective, I don’t see how NATO provoked that conflict. It was Russia, not a NATO-membered country nor Ukraine, that crossed the Ukrainian border and opened fire on Ukrainian territory that started the war.
I’m sorry, but “saying that she’d continue to arm Israel”, which would literally be her job if Congress apportions funds for her to arm Israel, is not equivalent to “promising to give Israel bombs”. The keyword “promise”, to me, suggests she would do anything her power to aid Israel, even if she doesn’t have to. I’ll accept any constructive criticism of this take, but not a strawmanning that strips away the context that it’s literally the law to do what Congress says in this case.
She has promised to always support Israel and aid it in its defense. It’s cut and dry, she will posture for a ceasefire while supporting genocide.
Do you have any sources for this?
Sure. During FDR’s campaign, coming off of the Great Depression, the Ruling Class feared a US October Revolution like what happened in the USSR, so the US became a Social Democracy for a time. Leftward movement comes from fear from the Ruling Class.
This segment of the discussion IS about Russia and Ukraine, because it’s what I raised at the end of my first post.
My point was not. My point was that pulling out of NATO is the single greatest act for the majority of Mankind that any US President could do. You’re shifting it back to Russia.
In any case, do you have any sources for this? Because from my perspective, I don’t see how NATO provoked that conflict. It was Russia, not a NATO-membered country nor Ukraine, that crossed the Ukrainian border and opened fire on Ukrainian territory that started the war.
Stoltenberg admitted it. “The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that. So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.”
In other words, NATO expansionism and encirclement of Russia despite Russia warning against it caused it. NATO was formed by Anticommunists against the USSR, and retained its anti-Russia purpose even after the dissolution of the USSR. Had NATO not expanded against Russia’s wishes, Russia would not have invaded Ukraine.
She has promised to always support Israel and aid it in its defense. It’s cut and dry, she will posture for a ceasefire while supporting genocide.
Paying lip-service to the support of Israel’s defense is not equivalent to personally supporting genocide. You could argue that it’s practically the same thing if she ultimately continues to arm Israel and Israel continues to attack Gaza, but I don’t think the blame should be placed on her, it should be placed principally on Israel, next on a Congress that apportions funds for Israel.
During FDR’s campaign, coming off of the Great Depression, the Ruling Class feared a US October Revolution like what happened in the USSR, so the US became a Social Democracy for a time. Leftward movement comes from fear from the Ruling Class.
My original claim was that if progressives split the vote, and the GOP wins as a result, that’ll shift the party right.
This isn’t a counter-example to that, IMO it’s an example that the worse the economy is for the working class, the harder the working class swings politics left, which I would agree with. That said, the Great Depression was also a much worse economic period.
I think an example in favor of what I’m talking about is the 2000 election. Bush won Florida by less than 1000 votes, but 100k votes were cast for the socialist candidate, most of which would’ve otherwise gone to Gore. The result was Bush not only winning in 2000, but again in 04. And in 08 we get someone who appealed moderates as much as he did to progressives.
My point was not. My point was that pulling out of NATO is the single greatest act for the majority of Mankind that any US President could do. You’re shifting it back to Russia.
I’m not shifting the entire conversation back to Russia, just this portion of it, because that’s where this portion started, and your point about dissolving NATO being an anti-imperalist move contradicts my take that removing the check against Russia is a pro-imperialist move. Also I don’t see how disbanding NATO would be “the single great act for the majority of Mankind that any US President could do“, feel free to elaborate.
In other words, NATO expansionism and encirclement of Russia despite Russia warning against it caused it. NATO was formed by Anticommunists against the USSR, and retained its anti-Russia purpose even after the dissolution of the USSR. Had NATO not expanded against Russia’s wishes, Russia would not have invaded Ukraine.
Russia could have simply…not invaded Ukraine? NATO is just a defensive alliance, it getting bigger doesn’t put Russia in danger unless Russia has imperialistic tendencies.
You could argue that Russia feared that NATO getting bigger meant that the individual countries get bigger, meaning they may choose to attack Russia themselves with larger power. But Russia could use that as an excuse to shore up its own alliances and continue building its own military (both actions taken in case of Russian invasion), not to invade a non-NATO country for no other reason?
It also doesn’t help that a vote for Jill Stein is a vote for the disbandment of NATO and the disruption of Ukraine aid.
Jill Stein’s only practical role in this election is as a presidential spoiler benefitting Trump
Can you explain why?
Stein has been primarily campaigning on “Drop Kamala”, bleeding democratic support away from Harris.
Sure.
When I say “practical role”, I’m referring to how Stein affects the results of this election.
There is a nearly 0% chance that Jill Stein is going to win the election, and a nearly 100% chance the winner will be either the Dem or GOP nominee. Given that she’s left of Kamala, who’s left of Trump, there are far more Stein voters who would’ve otherwise voted for Kamala than Stein voters who otherwise would’ve voted for Trump. So long as one or both of these voter groups are significantly large (which can mean as few as ~81,000 votes in the right states, since that’s the margin of victory Biden had in 2020), Stein would serve as a significant spoiler for Harris.
Consider the effect that Ralph Nader’s 2000 presidential campaign had on the 2000 election.
It’s literally 0. The entire country could vote unanimously for Stein and the electors could (and would) still just pick a winner from the two major parties.
Please research the electoral college before you discuss US presidential elections online.
I worry that, if Harris loses because Muslim voters don’t vote for her, liberals will side with Trump when he does another Muslim ban.
Or something worse this time.
Your fear is correct, I’ve seen liberal Nazis salivating about it on reddit. They really hate Muslims.
Nothing to be done about that though. They were going yo turn on Muslims anyway. There can never be safety in collaborating with Nazis
On the contrary if they withold their votes Liberals will have to start appealing to them to win them back.
I’m talking about liberals more broadly, not politicians. The angry mass of liberals might decide to get revenge, even if it isn’t in the Democratic Party’s interests.
Possibly but they’ve already shown to care little about brown people while the Muslims did vote Democrat in 2020. They even refused a Palestinian speaker at the DNC.
In the end when the propaganda machine decides it’s time to go it goes and targets whomever needs to be dehumanized. And most people from both sides will accept the propaganda without question.
Okay now you’re contradicting yourself. It sounds like Democrats don’t have to start appealing to Muslims. They’ll just crank out propaganda and join Republicans in eradicating them. And what are they going to do? Vote Republican?
I’m saying that voting Democrat does not gain them any immunity from being racially profiled by Democrats.
They have already appealed to Democrats and got nothing in return.
But you’re also saying that Democrats will have to appeal to them if they withhold their votes. I don’t think they do. Democrats could just write them off like they already do other groups.
Democrats only have so much leeway before they have to crawl back and appeal to voters. Especially since the elections are so close and minority groups hold significant voting power.
Biden got replaced because Democrats realized he was going to lose to Trump. Not because the establishment didn’t want to run him.
be for genocide
why won’t they vote for me
:stick-in-bike:
Those dastardly russians keep putting sticks in the spokes of my bikes. They even make it look like I’m the one doing it!
I mean that’s what happens when Harris is the vice president of the administration currently carrying out genocide in Gaza. Harris also repeated misinformation about Hamas members/ Palestinian men sexually assaulting Israelis during October 7 during the last presidential debate. How are Muslim voters supposed to trust someone like that? Someone that repeats racist and Islamophobic lies about them and their Muslim brothers and sisters in Gaza. Someone actively part of a genocidal administration. Of course Muslims do not want to vote for Harris, and the reasons are very obvious.
that’s what happens when you tell voters to fuck off when they suggest ways in which you can win their vote. hope it was worth it!
Is Jill Stein cool? I don’t know much about her
Green party platform is quite good this year yes. She’s been kindof a crank in the past going along with some anti-vaxxers on some shit but I have been informed she changed on that recently.
Jill Stein is cool. A lot of liberals are mad at her because she is snooping votes from the Democratic party by offering people things they actually want to vote for. Especially a weapons ban on Israel.
What good does voting for a presidential policy do when Congress just blocks it? Offering people things they actually want, but you have no ability to provide, is the oldest trick in politics.
The president can bypass congress
Sometimes, and Congress can override the President, as happened in the case I linked. If 2/3s of Congress decides to block the president on everything, there’s not much the president can do.
She’s alright but ultimately is a bit watered down compared to Claudia De La Cruz
Personally I prefer West, but Ive voted for Stein before. She’s one of the best candidates
Not particularly. She has basically no real experience in political office, despite running for several offices. Some of her policy positions sound fine, but without any way to actually implement those policies, they’re just empty words. Plus there’s some shady implications between her and Russia, and historically the Green party is funded by Republicans because they’re an effective spoiler.
So she sounds cool on the surface, but without more progressives in Congress her attractive policies aren’t remotely actionable. If you want a useful progressive candidate, vote for progressive in local and state elections every chance you have. This presidential election is not an effective time to vote third party.
Perfectly balanced
Awesome.
Let’s give fascism a chance.
Yay
Are you vote-shaming Muslim-Americans refusing to vote for someone committing genocide on Palestinians?
Explicitly YES
A vote fire Stein is a vote for Trump. A vote for stein is a vote for fascism.
Yes. I explicitly shame this behavior.
Shame.
Dig?
The Muslim-Americans that refuse to vote for a genocidal regime specifically targetting Muslims is somehow fascist, and supporting Trump?
Unfortunately, yes.
Our system blows. But as it stands, yes, that is correct.
The two party system should change, but until it does, you either vote for the lesser of two evils or you step back enable the greater of two evils.
If you vote for stein you’re worse than most magas because deep down, you know better.
Gotcha, so you’re the liberal that would rather close their eyes and cover their ears than actually try to regain those votes by pushing Kamala to sanction Israel.
I’m no fucken liberal
We should have cut Israel loose 30 years ago
Kamala is as center right as she’s ever been, she’s a fucken cop ffs
You think I wouldn’t rather be voting for somebody even a little left of center, let alone an actual leftist?
That’s not the world as it stands, no matter how much you whinge about making Kamala be mean to isreal
I could piss away my vote because Kamala sucks but what does that get anyone? You want change, dig in. We need to win local first
You think it’s bad for Muslims now? What do you think it looks like if the fucken yahoos running around saying Haitians eat cats win again because a bunch of morons protest voted for stein.
And seriously, Jill fucken stein of all people
I’m no fucken liberal
Voteblues are liberals, sorry
We should have cut Israel loose 30 years ago
Assuming it had to be founded, it should have been destroyed 70-something years ago
… Please research the electoral laws of the country you live and vote in!
I’m pretty familiar. What are you trying to say?
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Nobody here is advocating for voting for Trump.
Ok, Kai Andeson. I’ll give you my vote for city council.
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You got banned for “white power,” lmao. I don’t want to hear that from you.
A vote fire Stein is a vote for Trump
Can you explain to us why this is so?
Yeah, pay attention.
It’s a two party system as much as that sucks.
Stein has no shot. None. You’re a fool if you think she can win anything anywhere.
Candidate A from team blue sucks ass.
Candidate B from team red is a million times worse
—
If you’re abstaining to make a point or voting for stein because Kamala sucks, you’re enabling the greater of two evils by not actively voting against it.
—
You want a third party? We have to start at the bottom and when we get a shot at a national presence Jill fucken stein ain’t gonna be there
FFS I wish more people would get this. I understand that Kamala’s policy isn’t helping her but I don’t think they’ve done the math that a trump presidency would enable Israel 10 fold, he has made his stance very clear when it comes to Muslims and Israel.
Boy are you dumb, where did he mention voting? You shame your parents and every teacher you ever had.
This post is about Muslim-Americans polling more in favor of voting for Stein than Harris, and they responded by saying “yay, let’s give fascism a chance,” ie Harris loses because of this and Trump wins.
This entire post is about voting.
Can you please quit Lemmy
Why would I?
You’re blaming people for being strongly anti-genocide. That’s basically absurd at face value. If you wanna argue against being a single issue voter, that’s a conversation to have. However, “I oppose genocide.” is kinda the single best single issue to rely on, if someone is inclined to be one.
All the while, Harris knows the risks. Don’t blame voters for Harris’s conscious choice. If you alienate your base, you deserve to lose your base. Deal with it… I think she still has the votes, but that is the risk for every candidate, and it always will be.
No, we’re pointing out that electing Trump is a really weird way to be anti-genocide.
2016 again. Idiots never learn.
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And… turning the nation into a fascist hellscape will teach those democrats a lesson!
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You’re saying the Democrats, who are welcoming immigrants into sanctuary cities and fighting to protect the rights of legal immigration, are somehow also responsible for fear-mongering about immigrants? That’s an interesting take. What do you call it when Republicans are threatening to deport all legal and naturalized immigrants without any concern for the number of generational US citizens they will also deport because they had the wrong skin color?
who are welcoming immigrants
I take it you didn’t pay attention to the bipartisan border bill?
I take it you didn’t notice what happened after Republicans killed that bill?
But because I don’t entirely disagree with you, I’ll give you a better one: why is the Biden administration trying to remove protections from gray wolf populations, which were first removed by Trump? https://apnews.com/article/gray-wolves-protections-biden-trump-81084b1bba499d444950f8294880c524
This is widely perceived as a bad idea. Also Gaza, but that’s getting plenty of press anyway and sounds a little one-note at this point. More people need to know about the wolves.
I take it you didn’t notice what happened after Republicans killed that bill?
… not specifically? I noticed Harris promised to bring that fascist shit back in 2025 and sign it, and I noticed that Republicans are now saying that Haitian migrants are eating our pets. No one is looking very good right now on the immigration issue.
America is fucked.
The one where Democrats made deep concessions to Republican demands? The one where Republicans set most of the tone in the bill and then backed out because daddy Trump wanted immigration to still be an issue for the election?
Yes, the fascist border bill that was basically made to appease Republicans. Really welcoming to immigrants. 🙄
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So creating stronger border security to stop drug trafficking is a bad thing? There are still ways for people to cross legally, and what you quoted acknowledges the need to fix immigration policy for allowing citizenship. Whataboutism is when you are comparing two identical issues. What you are doing is ignoring the extreme approach of one party and trying to make it sound like the other party is doing the same thing… In the US, Trump wants to deport or straight up kill immigrants, Harris is acknowledging that we need to stop the drug traffic while helping supporting immigration. In Palestine … yeah Biden is sending bombs and he’s an ass for that but Harris has at least stated that things need to change. Meanwhile Trump’s only statement on the matter is that they need to bomb the Gaza strip and make the problem go away. Do you really thing allowing Trump to get into office will help anyone except rich white people? Stein might have a different approach but under our current voting system there is no possible way she will get elected, so your only honest choice in the matter is voting for someone who has a stated policy of death, or someone who has at least admitted that we can do better.
And not just at the national level. In February, Republican San Diego County Supervisor Jim Desmond posted a video on social media saying that one of the things that concerns him about, “how people are just able to walk across the border and get here,” is fentanyl. The implication is that migrants crossing in remote parts of the border are bringing drugs with them.
But data from U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) and other federal agencies show the vast majority of fentanyl comes through legal ports of entry. And the people bringing it into the country are native born Americans.
Approximately 80% of people prosecuted and convicted of federal drug trafficking offenses were U.S. citizens, according to Tara McGrath, U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of California.
I didn’t mention party. Either a small mind or a deranged supporter of the orange orangutan would jump to that conclusion. Would you like you accuse me of eating pets also?
We’re in such a wonderful position: Kamala does nothing about Israel like she’s paid to do and Palestinians die.
Trump wins and not only does nothing about Palestine, but encourages Bibi to go harder, more Palestinians die annnnd we get to enjoy the beginning of a fascist dictatorship!
Notice how Stein isn’t even mentioned in the above? You can claim it’s about putting pressure on Kamala all you like, but this is the literal election. When she loses because of this “pressure” (that isn’t pressure, it’s literally not voting for her at all) what’s the outcome? It sure as hell has nothing to do with Stein being anywhere.
We’ve been having this argument about the green party for fucking decades and what progress/policies have they “forced” the Democrats to adopt?
I think aside from the obvious genocide, what really fucking pisses me off about Democrats and this topic is that “we” can sooooo easily say “handguns for self defense ok! Shotguns for self defense ok! Rifles for self defense ok (depends on magazine size and rate of fire) bombs? No! Tanks? God no!” But when it comes to Isreal they suddenly completely lose the capacity for nuance… Bombs = self defense? Are you fucking joking?
So I see you’re concerned about the mathematical flaws of First past the post voting and the spoiler effect that comes along with it.
Did you know that alternative electoral systems exist? Ones where there isn’t a spoiler effect even. I feel like most democrats, like yourself, understand these faults quite well. It is after all, the entire subject of your comment.
So why are you mad about people who want to vote outside the two party system? Shouldn’t your anger be better directed at the two legacy poltical parties that protect this flawed voting system?
We all understand that republicans like First Past The Post voting. They are moving to protect FPTP voting in states they control. However, democrats say they support democracy. So can you tell me why they continue to use FPTP voting in the majority of states they control?
It’s not like this is a new issue. Its not like the democratic party just found out about the spoiler effect that comes with First Past The Post voting. Democrats have been quick to point out the flaws of our voting system longer then I’ve been alive.
Again, if the democrats are so informed of the flaws of the voting system, why does it persist in the vast majority of blue states? Who is preventing this reform? It’s not the republicans… they aren’t in power in these states. In a two party system, that would leave only one political party responsible for this spoiler effect.
The democrats.
They have sat on their hands for countless decades, understanding the problem yet doing nothing to resolve the issue.
So you see, you should be mad at the democratic party for putting their party over the needs of the people. Not the people who want to vote a certain way.
It’s unreasonable to blame those unrepresented in government for what is. This is what we voted for… again… and again… and again. Over and over. This is the result.
So why does this only show Republican states as actually banning it? Yeah I’m with you on Democrats slow walking this issue, but Republicans are actively banning it. Until that changes we’re stuck with only those two options. Corpo Dems or corpo-fascist Republicans…
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
You can be mad at both. Those in power should be changing the system to make it better and more fair, but they are not. That deserves anger. But while we are stuck with the existing system, and while the results of the system have serious consequences, then refusing to participate (and voting 3rd party in such a system is refusing to participate) means allowing the serious consequences to occur, and therefore also deserves anger.
It’s almost exactly the classic trolley problem. Voting democrat means pulling the lever: you cause some harm, but far less harm than if the trolley had not been diverted. Voting 3rd party is the equivalent to not pulling the lever, allowing much greater harm while feeling morally “clean” for not having caused it yourself.
I am in Massachusetts. RCV was a ballot question. It lost. That means the voters didn’t want it. Overall, RCV is pushed by multiple members of the democratic party. So this idea that democrats don’t want it as some sort of secret party policy is wild.
Now, is it fucking dumb we didn’t vote RCV in MA? Absolutely. Most voters are actually fucking morons.
Don’t worry. With a divided vote trump will take care of everything.
Stien never had any chance but the one she’s intended for. Divide the vote and help the people funding her- republicans.
Edit. I’ll add this here. Just saw this on another post
She isn’t the only anti-zionist candidate, but she is a good option
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It’s ironic to see people in this thread talking about “Democrats closing their eyes and ears”…
In 1995 the Arab-Israeli electorate sat out the election in protest because of a bombing which allowed Netanyahu to win by half a percent. And now he is still in power today causing all of these atrocities.
Trump has had private meetings with Netanyahu telling him to keep it up because it makes Democrats look bad.
You’re playing into Netanyahu and Trump’s hand. Just like all the MAGAt’s crying about the border when it was trump who stopped the border bill.
Clinton had the PLO (Arafat) and Israel in Washington to sign a peace deal. Arafat walked away. Peace was only talk.
Fuck her.
Yeah, fuck Harris (And Trump).
