I’m sure she would have gained some number of “uncommitted” voters by verbally coming out against Israel’s actions. I’m saying there are other voters she would have lost

That is taken into account, it’s still a significant net gain

I keep acknowledging that Biden deserves blame for his horrible Israel policy. You keep insisting that that represents “division” and “blaming,” because I’m not willing to also assign the exact same blame to Kamala Harris, exclusively, and hold the voters completely blameless on their side.

Harris’ Campaign was strongly influenced by people from the Biden and the Clinton administrations, possibly Obama admin too but I haven’t heard much of that. I couldn’t care less about blaming her as an individual. The campaigning and policies are still done at a party level for the most part. My point is that it’s useless to blame voters, vote shaming has never accomplished anything. If the Democratic Party is genuinely democratic, then holding them accountable is a meanful avenue for change. If the Democratic Party is not genuinely democratic, and instead only beholden to donor interests, then we all have a much larger problem on our hands which is exactly why solidarity and organizing with our communities, domestic and otherwise, is so important.

I’m not convinced it would have been the winning strategy in the election that you think it would have been, since there are a lot of voters in the US who are perfectly comfortable with killing Palestinians because they don’t really understand what the nature of the conflict is, and would see any arms embargo as betrayal of Israel in their time of need after suffering a horrific attack.

This is not the case when you look at months of polling. It’s a net gain of +6 points overall. If you look at just the swing states and see the margin of votes Harris needed to win, the votes from uncommitted in the primaries would have been enough to overcome that gap. Even more so when you recognize that there are over twice as many voters in the general when compared to the primaries. If you think that there is evidence that her changing position would be a net negative, back it up with evidence. Because all the evidence points to the opposite.

I can also apportion some blame to the voters who doomed Palestine

The US administration has been doomed Palestine, without any chance from the Democratic Party, it would have been doomed regardless. The support for the genocide is bipartisan, as evidence of Israel failing to meet the aid required put forth by the US for the last 30 days and resulting in zero policy changes.

I’m definitely blaming the people who organized the “uncommitted” movement

And what does all this blame accomplish exactly? Nothing but further division by blaming minority groups for daring to advocate for representation. Those votes were completely up for grabs. The campaign decided to ignore them.

It’s not a game

Tell that to the Democratic Party. How can you say they actually cared about winning when they ignored so many voters in critical swing states and ignored the needs of working class Americans? It certainly doesn’t seem like the realized how important this election was and acted accordingly to win by any means possible.

If I have cancer, and the doctor tells me about a treatment but isn’t persuasive enough about it, and I ignore them, and now I’m going to die, is that the doctor’s fault?

The issue is that neither offered any treatment. One offered again the current ‘treatment’ that has done nothing to help your cancer, the other said that ‘treatment’ is bullshit and said try this snake oil instead. People are stupid, many said fuck either option, and some went for the oil not realizing it was venom. If the doctor recommended a change to a genuine treatment and warned about the dangers of the venom, it would be a very different story.

You’re holding Kamala responsible for three decades of Democrats ignoring the working class

I’m holding her responsible for her campaigning and her policies. I’m holding the entire Democratic Party responsible for the continuation of neoliberalism in the face of an existential crisis where left-wing populism was the obvious solution. I’m holding both the Democratic and Republican Party responsible for being beholden to the business class, racheting the country towards Fascism.

Ah, I haven’t done much indepth reading of Marx yet so I wasn’t aware those were considered deviations. That makes sense. Overall I still agree with their deviations, I think they are reasonable and applicable to the current situation we’re in. I also agree with you and the works of Engles and Marx that is workplace democracy is not the end-all-be-all solution and that it will inevitably have to change one way or the other, either towards communism or regress back to capitalism.

I still stand by that Chomsky’s works are worth reading for people who are interested in and learning about socialism. It’s relatively digestible, easy to start, informative about our current situation, and I think the concept of workplace democracy is the most applicable method for people to resist the current state of the world dominated by Capitalism. I also agree with you that it’s best if not taken alone and better paired with the works of Marx, Engles, ect. But I do think it’s a great starting place for most people. Especially since most people still think of capitalism as simply ‘markets’ and ‘free trade’ and socialism/communism as ‘bread lines’ and ‘gulags’ which is of course far removed from the reality.

It’s just an edgy internet username that’s rolled over, feel free to look at my profile if you aren’t sure. Dying empires always go out violently, why would I be happy about the untold level of violence that’s going to unfold when I’m anti-violence? I support armed struggle, but only because that results when greater forces prevent any peaceful solution, resulting in people fighting for their lives against eradication.

I don’t really understand what you’re getting at here. It seems like say you aren’t blaming voters, but you are if they are uncommitted voters. The Uncommitted Movement are dedicated Democratic voters that have done everything possible within the proper channels to changing the Policy of the Democratic Party to support a permanent ceasefire only possible through the implementation of Conditional Military Aid.

They organized hundreds of thousands of Democratic Party voters and get the support of dozens of Democrat Delegates. When the Party failed to give them any consideration, they staged a peaceful protest outside the DNC, which had enough room for neocon republicans to speak but not a Palestinian American. When the campaign continued not to give them any consideration, despite the significant gains that polling was showing (as linked above) and the large majority of support from not just democrats but the general population on Conditional Military Aid, the Uncommitted Movement still did everything but Endorse Harris.

They explicitly told people not to vote the Donald Trump or Third Party. They understood the dangers of a Trump administration. They did everything in their power to get the Democratic Party to reflect the will of the people and change position from unconditional support on Israel.

It was the right thing to do from a political standpoint, it would have been a massive gain. It was the right thing to do from a moral standpoint, there is no both-sides when it comes to genocide. It was the right thing to do from a Law standpoint, both domestic with the Leahy Law and with International Humanitarian Law. There was nothing but reasons for the Democratic Party to pivot on this. If they were open to changing on public pressure, that was the time. The fact that they didn’t only goes to show that US support for this genocide is bipartisan, and that the Democratic Party would rather lose and continue the genocide rather than win and take the bare minimum steps to end it.

So what did you want to happen, should they uncommitted movement just have not bothered? Should American citizens have not cared that their loved ones in Palestine and Lebanon have been and are still being killed by American weapons? I don’t, I think that’s a completely unreasonable expectation to have for people that have been directly affected by our Administrations unconditional support for this genocide. I will absolutely not blame the election results and the continuation of this genocide on the people who are anti-genocide and did everything in their power to secure a permanent ceasefire through every democratic means possible.

The uncommitted movement was at least 1.5 million people in the general election, enough to win the swing states but not enough to explain the 10-20 million Americans that were not convinced by Harris’ Campaign to go out of their way to vote. That shows that there were many other issues with her campaign. She did not address the material needs of the working class, she ran to the right on immigration and American Jingoism, and ran another neoliberal platform of ‘nothing will fundamentally change’ when people are angry at our failing institutions and desperate for change.

I think Chomsky’s view is similar to Richard Wolff’s when it comes to concepts like State Capitalism. From what I’ve gathered, it relates to the relationship between the owners and workers. In state capitalism, there is still an authoritarian relationship between the owners or board of directors and the workers. The main difference is that the business is owned by the State, I’ve heard Wolff also call this Authoritarian Socialism. I’ve noticed both Chomsky and Wolff differentiate this from a socialist relationship, where the workers are also the owners in a democratic organization of the business, where this socialist relationship can be in either the Private sector or the State. This differentiates both Private and State Capitalism from Democratic Socialism, where the socialist relationship is present all forms of business both State and Private.

I don’t think this makes their works anti-marxist. While Chomsky may use a different definition of Socialism as discussed above, he has a very detailed analysis of how Capital Interests, especially since the implementation of neoliberalism, have affected the material conditions of the working class and atomized social organization. I think the main difference is that Chomsky does not see revolution as inevitable, but he still has a focus on how resistance and organization is necessary to overcome the power of global capitalism. I think it’s quite Marxist, but within the framework of the American Empire.

From that quote it looks look like Blackshirts and Reds does touch on the interplay between media and capital. But I think Manufacturing Consent both goes into much more detail for the whole scope, from Imperialists interests of the State down to individual media consumption, and also much more relevant to the media landscape facing the American and Western public today.

Marv Waterstone in Consequences of Capitalism does a fantastic job detailing the realities and effects of Global Capitalism in every aspect of today. From how it affects Imperialism on the global scale, to the environment and the Climate Catastrophe, to how it affects and has atomized the everyday worker.

They give an incredible amount of context about the current state of Capitalism, the current state of the working class, and a framework of organizing and resistance.

It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.

I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.

• Split Ticket (July 2024)

• New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)

• Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)

• American Attitudes: Shifting Realities After the Unfolding Genocide in Gaza (Nov 2024)

• https://instituteforglobalaffairs.org/2024/09/vox-populi-battlegrounds/#full-report (Nov 2024)

The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally.

What do you think about adding Manufacturing Consent and Consequences of Capitalism by Noam Chomsky? I think they both explain both the current media situation and realities of global capitalism very well without the need of reading previous theory.

US support for genocide is bipartisan

Biden, like many others in both the Democratic and Republican Party, are Christian Zionists. It’s ideological above all else for them. But I bet the money doesn’t hurt

For many, the belief that God still has a special relationship with Israel also includes an emphasis on eschatology, or the end times, and the belief that Israel’s establishment is part of a series of events that will lead to large-scale war, leading to the battle of Armageddon and the return of Jesus.

• Christian Zionism in the United States, 1930–2020

It was the Harris campaign that made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of at least a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election. Biden is a Christian Zionist, the genocide and de juro annexation of Palestine is exactly what he wants.

I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign to earn votes to win. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.

• Split Ticket (July 2024)

• New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)

• Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)

• American Attitudes: Shifting Realities After the Unfolding Genocide in Gaza (Nov 2024)

• https://instituteforglobalaffairs.org/2024/09/vox-populi-battlegrounds/#full-report (Nov 2024)

May Palestine get everything coming to it that their actions enabled.

The United States Administration is the one enabling Israel unconditionally. What a gross way to justify the genocide, by blaming it on the people who are anti-genocide.

Are you trying to say that people who are anti-genocide are clowns for being anti-genocide?

Were they ‘just trying to watch a sporting event’ when they chanted “Death to the Arabs,” “Let the IDF fuck the Arabs,” “Why is there no school in Gaza? There are no children left there,” tore down Palestinian flags, and assaulted taxi drivers?

No, it’s not. Anti-zionism is not Antisemitism. Zionism is not Judaism.

On Tuesday, a group of eight humanitarian aid organizations jointly said the Israeli government “not only failed to meet the U.S. criteria that would indicate support to the humanitarian response, but concurrently took actions that dramatically worsened the situation on the ground, particularly in northern Gaza.”

Israel’s actions failed to meet any of the specific criteria set out in the U.S. letter. Israel not only failed to meet the U.S. criteria that would indicate support to the humanitarian response, but concurrently took actions that dramatically worsened the situation on the ground, particularly in Northern Gaza. That situation is in an even more dire state today than a month ago. The principals of the Inter-Agency Standing Committee now assess that “the entire Palestinian population in North Gaza is at imminent risk of dying from disease, famine and violence.” The findings of this scorecard underscore Israel’s failure to comply with U.S. demands and international obligations. Israel should be held accountable for the end result of failing to ensure the adequate provision of food, medical, and other supplies to reach people in need.

• https://www.refugeesinternational.org/reports-briefs/scorecard-israel-fails-to-comply-with-u-s-humanitarian-access-demands-in-gaza/

There never was any involvement between Hamas and UNRWA. UNRWA has taken that sort of thing very seriously, especially since Oct 7th. These 9 were fired because the evidence presented by Israeli officials, with no independent verification, showed it was possible they were involved.

That doesn’t show that they were terrorists or working for/with Hamas on Oct 7th. It showed that it was possible that they violated UNRWA’s policy of Neutrality, and for that they were fired. So trying to attribute this to UNRWA workers in general makes no sense, it’s just used to justify Israel’s attacks on UNRWA staff and other aid workers working in Gaza during a genocide.

• UN completes investigation on UNRWA staff

So let’s see how you came to the number that millions of Jewish Americans would vote against Harris if she was in favor of conditional military aid in order to create a permanent ceasefire.

79% of them voted for Harris. Or just shy of 4.6 million voters

25% considered Israel a major policy item. Or just shy of 1.15 million Harris voters.

You think that since 25% consider Israel a major policy item that they all must be against conditional aid. Is that true? I wouldn’t jump to that conclusion. This statistic means that it is a prominent issue for them, not how. Let’s say it’s the #1 issue for them to make things easier.

Now let’s look at how Jewish Americans views on a conditional ceasefire

52.5% support withholding military aid compared to 23% to disagree with that decision.

What’s 23% of the 1.15 Million that consider Israel a top issue? 230,000 Jewish Americans.

Even if we assume all of these Jewish Americans are Democrat, which we have no way of confirming one way or the other, let’s compare that to the uncommitted movement. Total uncommitted in the Primary was 706,591 (Which may have been undercounted). On average, general turnout is twice that of primary turnout. Which would reflect over 1,400,000 uncommitted votes in the general as an estimate. Considering how widespread anti-genocide sentiment is, I would expect more than that. But it’s not like we have any data, other than the current results.

Not all of Hezbollah are combatants, things are not that simple. Not all of Hezbollah are militants, there are many social workers and politicians. Such as members of the Lebanese Parliament and Medical Workers in Hospitals. And even if they were, there are zero guarantees that all the pagers ended up in the hands of Hezbollah members. And even if that was the case, detonating them in public spaces is still a violation of international humanitarian law. By it’s nature this was a massive terrorism attack

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah

We just went through the numbers, no she would not have lost millions more votes. She would have gained net votes and enough to secure the swing states. Her decision not to cost her the election. We see the results of her not switching to conditional aid and it was Trump winning every swing state.

The Harris campaign made the decision to not break from Biden on Israel, at the cost of a +6 points gain. That’s the fault of the campaign’s calculations to ignore those voters, take them for granted, and instead run to the right with Liz Cheney and having the most lethal Military. That single policy change would have secured her the swing states needed to win the election.

I voted for Harris and told others to do the same. It’s still on the campaign. Blaming voters is just sowing division when we need unity and solidarity to fight against Fascism.

• Split Ticket (July 2024)

• New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)

• Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)

• American Attitudes: Shifting Realities After the Unfolding Genocide in Gaza (Nov 2024)

• https://instituteforglobalaffairs.org/2024/09/vox-populi-battlegrounds/#full-report (Nov 2024)

You’re trying to compare votes gained vs votes lost due to a policy shift in conditional military aid. We see a positive shift both generally, and very much so in swing states. If we’re comparing voters who would vote against Harris compared to voters who would vote for Harris with this change, we see that there would be enough of a positive shift to at least flip the swing states. We saw that there is less than 300k Jewish Americans nationally that would vote against Harris if there was conditional aid. The votes that would be gained by Arab Americans and the Uncommitted movement would far outweigh that, especially in swing states. The argument that the decision to not do conditional military aid was because of the Jewish American vote does not hold.

It does in the very least in swing states, as the polls show. Yet we see a net positive in both swing states and the general populous with a conditional aid policy.