So in short, in the 433 cases, 12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
So by the statistic provided we should give everyone massive balls instead of gun to stop gun violence.
I wish we could win this argument with logic, but I’m certain the fanatics will immediately latch onto the narrative that guns are being used by good guys already, but we obviously need more guns and less restrictions on them them to get those numbers up.
With Republicans, any fact against them is either ignored or bastardized to say the opposite of what it actually says.
Yeah, there’s rarely any logical sense being made because to them gun is a right, not privileges, and once privileges turn into right it take a dictator to take that away.
But then again, jailing people in shitty prison where most right are taken away is a okay 🤷
They only jail people outside of the in-group
I think gun people are counting the police as good guys with guns.
No they don’t. If you ban guns from citizens, police would still have guns in the US.
The argument of “Good guys with a gun” is about citizens not able to kill the “bad guy with a gun” before the police arrive.
I see.
Unbelievable that fucking guy or lady said that and got any upvotes. Living under a goddamn fucking rock. Thank you for correcting.
Then why does everyone else need them?
A genuine, actual answer is that when you’re being attacked, it is incredibly rare for a police officer to be standing there, ready to intervene. In life-or-death situations the police really only exist to take a report from whoever is left standing, and potentially make an arrest. There’s plenty of people out there who don’t have the strength to defend themselves in hand-to-hand combat, and even if they did, next to nobody has the skills necessary to reliably defend against a knife attack using their bare hands. That’s just plain how knife attacks work.
You can counter this with statistics that show that access to guns increases injuries and deaths, because they absolutely do, but pro-gun folks put the individual before the group on this issue. The individual, in their mind, should have the right to quick deadly force in order to facilitate defense of their own life, and other’s failure to handle that responsibility is not their problem and/or the price of that right.
There are always tradeoffs, in any policy you set for society. If you go the other direction there will be people who are victimized who would otherwise have been able to defend themselves. Which scenario is worse? How many victims of one type are worth victims of the other?
How does this turn into a knife argument? That’s just a distraction. We do already restrict certain types of knives, plus you can’t walk down a city street with a machete.
More importantly I can shut a door between myself and an attacker. Try that if they have a gun
They’re saying that if someone tries to attack you with a knife (or even no weapon), pro-gun proponents argue you should have a right to a firearm to defend yourself against that attacker, citing that most people straight up do not have the physical ability to ward off the attacker (who is on average an adult man).
I would argue having a firearm is unlikely to help. At close range, knife has the advantage and you probably won’t even get the gun out. At longer range, running/avoiding is a better choice if you can.
There’s a few YouTube channels that I think do a good job of being level-headed when it comes to analysing self-defense and giving decent advice around it. Hard2Hurt, Armchair Violence (a more general channel that recently did a video on unarmed knife defense), and Active Self Protection are three that come to mind right off the bat. All three say the same thing: • avoid sketchy locations if you can • pay attention to the people around you, especially in what are called “transition areas” like when you walk out of a store • deescalate conflict as much as possible (without giving in to demands) • leave as soon as you’re able • only fight when your hand is forced
As far as I’m aware, they all also advocate for carrying pepper spray and participating in folkstyle wrestling to use as your defensive base for things that don’t require lethal force. The problem is, you don’t have the only say on whether a situation will become a threat to your health and safety or not. Sometimes you’re just unlucky and a guy flips out on you for something petty and now you’ve got a guy pushing and shoving yelling about how he’s gonna fuck you up and you can see a pocket knife clipped in his pocket.
Most firearm uses are at very close range. If you practice your draw—and you absolutely fucking should—you should be able to draw and fire multiple rounds with a person busy punching or stabbing you. (Through what usually happens is the victim manages to get a window of separation and uses that to draw their weapon.) After a few shots your attacker will have had enough time to react to what you’re doing, but most people react to being shot in the gut by falling over. It’s mostly a psychological thing, but surprisingly effective. Once they do that, turn and run. All you’re trying to do is get them to stop hurting you so you can get away safely.
Well, you know, the more guns, the less gun violence. Yeeeeeeah, right. Since we officially have more guns than people, it should all be over soon.
Tyranny, or something I believe is the argument.
The last time citizens with guns stood up against the government was the Civil War, and they were standing up for their right to enslave other Americans.
Think someone needs to revisit the math.
Definitely agreed.
That makes it 122/433 where the shooter was stopped by a “good guy with a gun”. Hardly a great figure either way…
Especially after the murdering was already done.
12 of them is stop by good guy with gun and 42 of them is stop by good guy with massive balls.
No. There is nothing to imply that the 42 people didn’t have a gun, just that they didn’t shoot the attacker. That part seems fishy.
They could have also talked them out of it, which still takes balls
Oh yeah, I’m sure any of these cases were someone stopping to hold an active shooter at gunpoint and that somehow working out for them. Or maybe they used their gun as a melee weapon. Or maybe the attackers were subdued by being talked down over their common love of guns. Or maybe the active shooter ran out of ammo and came up to the good guy with a gun to get some more, at which point the good guy revealed they were actually tricking them into lowering their guard and put them into a headlock. Or maybe some other far-fetched bullshit that’ll let me equivocate over the fact that “good guys with guns” don’t do shit in the grand scheme of things.
Jeez, that’s a lot of words you needed to make a clown out of yourself, just because you are pissed by objective fact.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun argument” is a pathetic farce, so you’re trying muddy the waters by shifting the argument to a ridiculous, unfounded, unfalsifiable notion that any of the 42 subduers might’ve had literally anything to do with “good guys” having firearms.
I think you’re pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your “good guy with a gun” argument
There is nothing in what I said that would imply what side of “good guy with a gun” argument I am on and there is nothing in the data that says anything about whether the 42 people had a gun.
My point is this is terrible and confusing representation of the data, as is often the case in any “data is beautiful” community.
But keep kicking around mad that the version that supports your narrative is not the only possible one :D
Yeah, so terrible and confusing that they didn’t mention guns in branches that don’t have anything to do with guns outside of a gun fetishist’s fanfiction.
So, I can imagine someone with a gun menacing the attacker at gunpoint and forcing them to surrender. No shots fired.
But the data doesn’t include this for bystanders. Maybe that’s because it doesn’t happen in real life, or maybe they muddied the watters. We can’t know because we can’t see the data they used to make this graphic.
branches that don’t have anything to do with guns
Branch that doesn’t involve shooting the attacker.
Keep trying. You will not get there, but at least you tried.
Thank you for standing up to the slavering morons around here about bad statistical graphics.
All I’m getting out of this is that police are, in fact less than 50% effective, so we’d better plan on dealing with it ourselves.
The chance that someone decided to go hand to hand with a gunman in the middle of blowing away the population whilst leaving their gun holstered is basically zero.
I recall reading like a gunman got tackled last year. If I get time I’ll dig it up
I think you missed the point. People sometimes DO manhandle the shooter. They don’t do so whilst having the option of blowing away the shooter.
Not what I said or implied, but no, that chance is not basically zero.
True, they didn’t specify whether in that 42 cases the citizen does have a gun but did not fire, just aiming and intimidate. However the data did split between
shot firedshot at the attacker(no mention hit or miss) vs subdued, not killed vs subdued, and also there’s a mention of the attacker surrender, so i assume “subdued” mean the attacker did not surrender but forced to give up whatever they’re doing.
Oh wow, I missed this. That’s a fantastic insight to pull out of this.
I read “The police shot the attacker 98 times” with a different interpretation at first lol.
With average cop accuracy that’d probably exhaust their armory’s ammo supply
Lucky they busted old Billy and his one pot plant, and seized all his cash. That will refill the sheriff coffers.
“sprinkle some crack on 'em. Open and shut case Johnson!”
Do you think they got them?
That seems excessive.
So in most cases the bad guy with a gun is stopped by a bad guy with a gun (himself).
The Hitler strategy, classic.
Right.
- That means “good guy with gun” argument is wrong
- That means mental health intervention can prevent a much larger proportion of these tragedies
Don’t forget when cops shoot the good guy with a gun!
Here are a few I could find quickly. There’s at least one more that I just happen to recall that didn’t come up because I can’t seem to remember where it happened. I think it was more recent than any of these. And I’m quite sure there are many more than that, this was just the most time I was willing to spend googling at the moment.
https://www.bet.com/article/eokrmr/black-man-kaun-green-disarm-shooter-shot-by-police
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/11/12/good-guy-with-a-gun-comes-to-rescue-police-kill-him/
This is about that stupid argument against gun regulation.
What cops do is a different issue.
In Germany, where there is stricter gun control, there was an incident in which a bystander tackled the knife attacker. The police mistook the bystander as the perpetrator, and because the police were distracted, the attacker got up and stabbed two more people including one of the police officers. https://apnews.com/article/germany-mannheim-stabbing-police-officer-death-a66c14970a53464aff0c1c77a7196481
I agree with others. The idea of “good guy with a gun will stop the bad guy with a gun” is pretty much wishful thinking if the police arrives on the scene and mistakes who. It does not matter whether there is gun control or not, the good guy could be mistaken in the midst of chaos.
It is, however, one of the outcomes, and is not represented. I’m not demanding it should be added, but I think it makes the “Good guy with a gun” argument even weaker.
No fucking way I’m pulling out my gun if I think there’s a >0 possibility Police are on the scene. Now I have to not only worry about taking care of the bad guy, but also about being shot to death by police.
How many of those 12 citizens that stopped the attacker had that happen too?
Personally I don’t think it’s worth sacrificing the clarity of the image with even more rare specifics.
Well out of 12, there were 4 posted when the good guy with a gun dies. That isn’t including any of the ones we don’t know about, but that would be a 33% that you would die if you are a good guy with a gun and you “save the day.”
Man, it’s just a point of discussion. I literally said I’m not demanding it should be added.
And, in the examples I gave, at least two of them did stop the attacker before being killed by police.
The bottom line is, people who feel safer with a gun than with the right to see a doctor, are not mature adults with a healthy sense of rational fear.
Sooo technically most of the time a “Bad guy with a gun” is stopped by a “Bad guy with a gun”.
That’s why you should make sure they all have access to guns.
And that they are suicidal.
US domestic policy is starting to make sense
Guys with no guns that think it’s immature that several children die from frail men with ego issues every day:
You know what, the American obsession with guns has never been anything to do with “protection”, it’s about being ammosexual.
Most people who carry guns are doing it for self-defense, not civil defense.
The rules of an Active-shooter event are:
- Flee
- If you can’t flee, hide.
- If you can’t hide, fight back.
Carrying a concealed weapon doesn’t change that. I have a little 380 pocket pistol I’ll occasionally carry. It’s low-capacity, low-power, and low-accuracy. No way am I volunteering to take on a psychopath with a long gun who isn’t worried about collateral damage with my little pea shooter, and anyone Who expects me too just because I’m armed can kiss my ass.
I carry a pistol to protect me from muggers and car-jackers, not to protect the public.
Having the general public feeling that they need to carry a gun for self defense just sounds crazy to me.
Stabbings have risen here in the UK but generally it’s either a rare occasion where some nutter is on the run or it’s gang related. In general I would never feel the need to carry my own knife around for self defense. I don’t know anyone who carries a knife around with them for self defense.
Would anyone you know tell you if they carried a knife for self-defense, given that it’s generally a crime to do so in the UK?
Close friends sure and yes you need to have a good reason as to why you’re walking around with a knife in public.
It’s similar in a lot of states in the US. You aren’t legally allowed to carry a knife for self defense, or as a weapon, but recently in my state, the laws were changed so that you can carry any size blade without a reason. So if you say “I carry a knife for defense” you’ll get fined/arrested and your knife would be confiscated, but if you say “it’s for cutting stuff” or nothing at all, thats legal.
IANAL. Read your local knife laws.
Imo only an idiot would carry a knife for self-defence, especially if untrained. If someone (probably women especially) feels unsafe, carrying CS-spray would be more reasonable imo.
Its weird you got downvotes. A knife is a terrible weapon for self-defense, the odds of you getting fucked up by your own knife are extremely high. Pepper spray is far superior to a knife for any realistic self-defense situation.
Tell that to all the young idiots in gangs
Doubt they carry knifes for self-defence. But then, gang-members are probably not the people with the best education.
It wouldn’t be wrong if someone wanted a knife for self defense though
Almost all of our gun violence is the same, gang/drug related. The media here acts like it’s random killings all over the place, its not. You have a better chance of drowning in a pool than getting killed by an ar15 here, yet people, even in this thread, think it’s something that happens like every 3 seconds.
You conveniently left out school shootings. between 2018-2023 more than 1200 school shooting incidents occured. You literally can not kill a dozen of people with knives but u can easily do it with a gun.
No I did not. And no there was not 1200 school shootings, those numbers are created by the GVA and used as a propaganda piece for anti-2a rhetoric.
Even NPR did a piece on it:
https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2018/08/27/640323347/the-school-shootings-that-werent
I’d feel fine with someone carrying a weapon if it’s based on a reasonable fear, and they make an effort to stay trained/safe with the weapon. For instance, they exited an abusive relationship with a significant other who feels they “belong” to them.
But there’s a lot of people who stretch the statement of “I don’t feel safe” to far more cases than make sense.
Okay, so I’m not the only one who read “shot the attacker 98 times” and for a split second imagined this scenario where 131 times, the attacker was shot a gratuitous and strangely precise number of times, right?
this has me laughing uncontrollably… it’s so specific but also because it’s the police, it’s not impossible. god there’s tears in my eyes from laughing
“Shooter is down. Three clean shots to the chest. Johnson, put 95 more in him, and we can all go home.”
“you can keep the crack, this one actually did something”
He’s dead jim
No, I came here, looking for that exact comment
The worst part is the scenario is mildly believable knowing our police force.
Guns have really improved since the year 131.
The Aelia Capitolina PD were fucking loose cannons, man.
I agree with the point this is trying to make, but I don’t think it does its job.
Like, the whole argument from the ‘good guy with a gun’ crowd is about stopping them early. You’d need to cross reference each of these catagories with ‘how many people did the mass shooter kill’. And, this would really only be a strong argument vs the ‘good guy with a gun’ point if the ‘shot by bystander’ result had no fewer average deaths.
Additionally, it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
Again, I don’t agree with those points, it’s just that this chart is pretty bad at presenting an argument against them.
Also, the data needs to include how many people are accidentally shot by guns through improper usage and storage.
From the numbers I have seen, far more children are killed accidentally by good-guy-guns then they are saved by those very same guns
We need good kids with guns to shoot the bad kids with guns!?
we need good kids with guns to shoot the neutral kids with guns who might take someone else out when they shoot themselves.
I think they take away your good-guy card before that happens
Ah, the classic no true good guy fallacy.
You should see the data for people improperly using cars or medications or alcohol. Pretty scary stuff, I think everything should be illegal.
it’s easy to clap back with ‘well, yeah, our society doesn’t have enough “good people” trained with guns, that’s why it’s only 5%!’
I agree. It’s pathetic how shit arguments that make no actual sense are allowed to fly by millions of people.
Its the culture war mentality.
“Our idea would work, if the damn Wokes didn’t stop us all from having guns at all times!”
Its always the reason why ‘their ideas don’t work’; cause their opponents aren’t ‘letting them’
Cause many people don’t want their beliefs challenged. They want to live without accepting facts, or even regardless of facts.
I think it also misses a special case, where a active shooting would have happened, but a ‘good guy with a gun’ stopped it before a death toll occurred by either holding the shooter at gunpoint or shooting them.
This would likely be a rare case that would be much harder to quantify but you know it will be argued it’s needed for that case.
That is covered in this graphic as subdued by bystander, it’s a small amount and they include cases where people didn’t subdue with gun.
They don’t stop a shorter before it happens. It’s not a scenario that exists. If you shoot someone before they draw their weapon to shoot, your the active shooter.
It also leaves out the situations where the bad guy with the gun was stopped before becoming an active shooter.
The other problem with the “good guy with a gun” is how many people does an attacker need to kill before you are the good guy killing the bad guy? One? And what if you didn’t witness it? The “good guy” with the gun attacking another guy with a gun without knowing what’s going on, are they still the “good guy” in that scenario? It’s a mess.
The whole thing stems from fallacious logic. Arming everyone doesn’t stop bad guys murdering people, at best it might curtail the length of some attacks and at worst it causes innocents to die as so-called “good guys” try to save the day and make it worse.
Prevention is the way forward, as then 0 people die. And the best way to do that is no one has guns (not even most police; just a small subset of specialist police). That is an anathema or sacrilegious to Americans, but it’s the approach taken in many democratic and free countries in the world.
If the chart is trying to make a point, it’s making the wrong one anyway.
I would also zoom in on the suicide of the attacker.
That’s some wild stuff to show these people needed help loooong before they did this.
Homicidal ideation does not always equate to wanting to live with having killed someone, and a lot of these people are closer to normal than they realize until they are facing potential consequences for their actions. I would posit that killing oneself after doing something so heinous is one of the saner outcomes.
A lot of people experience “fucked around, found out” immediately or shortly after they cross a line, before anyone else has a chance to tell them they fucked up.
Yeah I can see that too. It’s a shame the US government banned research into firearm violence by the CDC.
How many people does the attacker need to kill? Ideally, none. If an attacker is attempting to kill someone and that person is killed instead of the potential victim, good.
If I’m out and someone tries to attack me, I’m pulling out my pistol and ending it right there. I’m not trying to be a “good guy with a gun,” I’m just carrying to protect myself.
and zero people die Are you dense? Murder will still happen because people have been killing people before guns. You’re also gonna take guns away from law-abiding people like me who love going out on the weekends to shoot with their buddies or hunt and leave nothing but criminals with guns? Dumb.
The really crazy thing about the graph is that there are 433 fucking datapoints!
Even crazier, the graph is two years old.
It’s the kids that are the problem, not the assault weapons. Every kid should be strapped. That would solve all problems. That and tariffs. We can get that number up to a 1000. 1000 is better than 433.
Hoo-rah! USA!
In what time frame did those shooting happen?
Is there a statistic how many bystanders were hurt by armed citizen bystander?
Quiet! You’ll scare the gun lobby with that logic talk!
Unfortunately they will probably just ignore it instead of acknowledging it.
Probably not b/c it’s literally illegal for Congress to investigate gun violence harm thanks to the NRA.
The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun… In an action movie, in real life, there’s kinda too much chaos going on for anyone to differentiate between the “bad guy” and the “good guy”, or for the “good guy” to know the situation.
I’ve heard of more times where someone tried to play hero and was gunned down by the police who mistook him for the real shooter than I have any reports of “Hero Gunman slays horrible villain”
> died by suicide
Sometimes even bad guys with a gun stop themselves.
If they didn’t have guns, how could they kill the shooter? That’s why thy shouldn’t ban guns! /s
Unless thay weren’t actually ‘bad’ people, rather they found themselves having to use a gun as the only option left to them. One notable bit of info missing is why these people had a gun and why were they using it?
This chart is taking into account situations where a person shot or attempted to shoot multiple unrelated people in a public setting. The stereotypical mass shooting. I really don’t care what someone is going through, my sympathy for the poor and disenfranchised does not extend to indiscriminate murder
Thanks for clarifying. My point was not to ilicit sympathy, any such violence is ahorant and the perpetrator must take responsibility, ultimately, but rather to illicit empathy. To understand how and why people end up in such a place then creates the starting point to find solutions, or at least, minimise how frequently they may occur within a population in the future.
As such, I’m inclined to think that in at least some of the cases where the individual commits suicide once the police turn up, they have reached a total breaking point, so to speak, and the last option they can see has gone so suicide is sll that’s left.
This to me doesn’t suggest a ‘bad’ person, more so someone who has found themselves in a terrible place, particularly in cases where that’s no fault of their own, and are wndingvup doing something bad. Being ‘bad’ to me is closer to gansta/mobster mentality - e.g. killing people is fine, so long as its not us, and i cant imagine any mass shooter being someone like that. There are a myriad of variables of course, and this may only apply to some of the people painted as ‘bad’ in this infografic.
This one’s only counting active mass shooters. When it’s still a lesser shooting with under 4 victims, the odds of a vigilante rando with a gun - that is, a citizen packin’ heat and not a cop off the clock - stopping the violence is about 1 in 7000.
So, once a year in America.
No it’s not, dgu’s happen all the damn time. Hell there is a subreddit that tracks the ones that are found. There are countless videos of people being attacked, and pulling a firearm and the violence magically stops. That’s a DGU, even though no round was fired. So it doesn’t show up on lists like these, which have an agenda.
I’d like to know how many times a civil with an AR-15 has saved the day.
Basically never because they are ridiculously impractical for normal to carry around so they are virtually never available for anything to even think about using.
Al least once. I’d have to dig up the article, but somewhere in one of the flat states (Kansas, I think?), a group of three armed people broke into a home that a teen was home at. He confronted and shot all of the robbers with an AR-15. I believe that two died on the scene, one made it out to the getaway car and bled to death in the car. The driver of the car was charged with three counts of felony murder.
AR-15 carbines and SBRs are very, very good for home defense, far better than a shotgun (long/unwieldy, low ammunition capacity) or handgun (poor sight radius, more difficult to aim), and the small, light bullet tends to not overpenetrate (e.g., you’re less likely to accidentally shoot your neighbors than you might be with a larger, heavier bullet).
I won’t claim high confidence on this, but the overpenetration thing sounds wrong to me. I thought the chambering for AR-15s was naturally FMJ and piercing to some degree. Meanwhile, buckshot from a shotgun splits into many lighter projectiles that would stop at the first soft layer.
I even remember a talk from COD developers where they admitted the loud, powerful boom of a shotgun would make you think it’d go straight through walls, so they coded the game that way even though the buckshot would stop early.
Check out theboxotruth.com. They’ve tested all sorts of ammunition against all sorts of barriers.
Rifle bullets are relatively small, lightweight, and fast. When they impact building materials, they tend to shatter. They’re dangerous on the other side of the first wall, but they’ll lose a lot more energy a lot faster.
Pistol bullets, buckshot, slugs, etc are relatively large, heavy, and slow. They tend to remain intact and carry more energy through multiple walls.
A lot of law enforcement agencies switched their long guns from pistol-caliber carbines to 5.56 rifles specifically because they over penetrate less.
55gr FMJ BT–which is pretty much the most common .223 ammunition–tends to fragment pretty dramatically inside about 300y after hitting something solid. Once it hits something solid, it starts tumbling and tears itself apart pretty fast, in part because it’s moving at supersonic speeds. That’s part of the reason why it’s so lethal at short ranges; it’s turning into a lot of small fragments… (That, and the cavitation that is produced by bullets moving >2600fps; that will produce a temporary wound cavity that exceeds the elasticity of tissue, and turns into a permanent wound cavity. The cavitation produced by subsonic bullets isn’t great enough to turn into a permanent wound channel.) At subsonic speeds, it doesn’t fragment, and just ‘ice picks’. A shotgun with birdshot would definitely not over penetrate, but then you run the risk of not being adequately lethal on your target. Buckshot is still going to penetrate exterior walls pretty handily without being deformed significantly or fragmenting, even if a lot of the energy has been eaten up by a house’s cladding; it might not kill easily, but it can still wound. But then you’re back to the original problem: large/long firearm, heavy recoil, very limited ammunition in a tube magazine, and slow to reload.
An ASSUALT rifle for home defense? How many rounds do you need to shoot to do the job?
Pump action shotgun with a folding stock would be far better.
You know that AR doesn’t stand for assault rifle, right? The AR is for Armalite, the inventors of the design. It’s just a semiautomatic rifle with a detachable magazine, it’s pretty common to use as a hunting rifle.
And yeah, you see AR-15 and it’s workalikes all over the place because they’re flexible. Literally the most common rifle in the US. That’s why they’re so common in public mass shootings - those shooters generally aren’t buying a gun specifically for that sort of shooting, they’re using a gun they already have access to or what they can readily purchase off the shelf.
It’s not the best gun for any scenario, but it’s a good enough gun for most and that’s because it’s modular and the guns and parts are both commonly available.
To add to this - it’s modular because there’s a US military specification for it. As long as parts are to spec, they’re interchangeable. If I wreck my barrel, any AR-15 barrel (…that uses the same length of gas system…) should bolt on to my receiver. If I break my bolt carrier, any bold carrier should work. If the length of pull on a fixed stock isn’t good, I can get an adjustable stock.
‘Building’ an AR-15 from parts is only slightly harder and more expensive than building Star Wars Lego ™ kits. A bod-standard milspec AR-15 that’s reliable and accurate enough (3 MOA) can be had for about $450.
And, BTW, @Schadrach is absolutely right about it being a common hunting rifle. .223 Rem is commonly used for medium sized game and varmints; it’s commonly used for coyotes and feral pigs, and some people (depending on your state) use it for deer with heavier, 70-odd grain bullets.
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Folding stock shotgun is actually terrible, you could practice for years and still be less accurate than a cop with a proper stock on their firearm.
You telling me a 12 gauge (hell, lets make it 10 guage for fun) in a tight space like your hallway or someone coming thru your doorway is worse that an AR15?
Why did the Germans try to get the trench gun banned in WW1? Because in close quarters (like inside a house) that shit is nasty.
It’s not the shot, it’s the stock.
First off the spread on a shotgun is not like a video game where your entire view is covered in lead. It’s still relatively grouped.
Second, the trench gun had a stock. The stock is important. It allows you to properly and quickly aim at what you’re trying to shoot. The WW1 'Trench Gunn had a stock.
If your goal is to take down home invaders, you want a stock on your shotgun.
If you just want to put lead in your walls and furniture, go with a folding stock one.
That being said, a gun is the least useful device you can acquire to help you during a home invasion. A firearm in your home is statistically more likely to cause accidental harm to you or your family than it is going to help you fight off hole invaders.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7769769/
You’d be better off investing in proper home security measures.
Best logical response I have seen.
Yes, it absolutely is. The only people suggesting that it’s not are fudds. At home-invasion distances, there is no effective spread on your pellets; your shotgun pattern is a single hole. That means that, yes, you need to put that shotgun to your shoulder, and you need to aim. Given that–outside of box mag fed shotguns–you get 8 shots or less in that shotgun, you better hope that you’re a really good shot when someone else is actively shooting back.
You know that the alternative in WWI was a bolt-action battle rifle, right? A pump or lever gun would have been far faster. The sturmgewehr StG-44 wasn’t invented until 1943; if it had been in existence in 1914, the Germans absolutely would have been using them in trench battles over. As it was, the Bergmann MP 18–the first real submachine gun, fielded in 1918, near the end of the war–gave a significant advantage in trench combat. (But by the time it hit front line troops, there wasn’t anything that could have stopped Germany from losing.)
How many people are entering the house?
Are they all Jason Bourne like fanatics who are willing to commit suicide in the process of killing you?
If they are, then you have done something seriously horrific and they are most likely justified in seeking your end.
House robbers? Fuck that, why would they get into a gun fight with someone blowing holes in their own walls? Easier targets to burgle than that.
How many people are entering the house?
In this case, it was three armed home intruders, plus a getaway driver.
Are they all Jason Bourne like fanatics who are willing to commit suicide in the process of killing you?
If they are, then you have done something seriously horrific and they are most likely justified in seeking your end.
…That’s quite a stretch, don’t you think? Bluntly, if anyone breaks into my home while I’m home, I’m going to assume that they’re intent on causing harm to me, because I’m sure as shit not going to politely ask them to fill out a questionnaire before acting.
Have you ever fired a gun while under time pressure? Like, for instance, in a 3 gun competition? Or shot at someone while they’re shooting at you? Misses in combat are common. Would you rather miss a lot with a firearm that only carries 7 bullets, or one that has 30?
Oh, and before you spread some fudd about shotguns pellets spreading and not needing to aim, at home defense distances–<10y–your shot pattern with no choke on a 30" barrel with 00 buckshot is going to be about 4". Firing a shotgun without it being braced on your shoulder? Good fucking luck hitting anything. And your shotgun is still going to be about half again as long-at a minimum–than a carbine.
Done a lot of skeet shooting. Agreed about comment with no shoulder stock but the imitation factor of a shotgun roar in an enclosed space is pretty potent, especially if your target holds a pistol.
Why try a shootout with someone with a fucken hand cannon? Easier targets to rob.
imitation factor of a shotgun roar in an enclosed space is pretty potent
Are you willing to bet your life on that? Or would you rather stack the odds as heavily in your favor as you can?
I took an active shooter training class at our sheriff’s dept some years ago. At the end they had a Q&A period, and nearly all the questions were coming from obvious gun owners who just wanted one of the deputies there to give them the ok to shoot during an active shooter event, just some sort of official recognition that they were in the clear to do it. The deputies weren’t having any of it and the farthest they would go was, “You do whatever you feel is necessary to stay safe and protect yourself.” I’m assuming they couldn’t endorse vigilantism or for citizens to be bringing guns into active shooter situations, since even the firearm accuracy of cops is supposedly only ~30%. The people in the crowd kept coming up with ever more wild scenarios, just trying to get somebody to tell them it was ok. “You’re telling me, that if there was an active shooter that had your wife and kids hostage, and I’m standing there with a gun, you wouldn’t tell me it was ok to take the shot?” was one question I remember a guy asking. It was like, they’re obviously not going to tell you what you want to hear, can we move the fuck on?
But that’s their dream and soul purpose in life…to shoot a minority bad guy. You can’t just dismiss the negligible chance that that gets into that extremely convoluted situation.
Watch the bad guy be a white dude, like most of them are
If he’s a terrorist he’s clearly not a real white guy, he’s probably Italian or Irish or something