Nah I dislike you just as much. Was lincoln a tankie?
…
Fuck.I really WAS looking forward to blocking you. AND you didn’t give me a good reason not to. BUT,
the more I think about it, the more I find myself liking your question and feel myself WANTING to explore it.
At first, I asked myself if I could say “yeah, actually” but clearly THAT would be untrue - and not just for the reason that battle tanks weren’t even invented yet at the time, but because even though lots of people hurl the word “tankie” around as a blanket insult with no real meaning, I’m instead actually honestly trying to mean something specific - It’s not JUST killing your own people because they oppose you politically (using the figurative “you” here, not the literal you). It’s the amount of intentional civilian casualties.
When people take up arms for a cause, they’re self-selecting into the combat role, after all. Executing a planned, organized attack upon a government’s assets is not a civilian behavior. It’s either the behavior of an enemy (to said government) soldier or the behavior of a criminal. It’s not innocent. The rebels in the American civil war were certainly not innocent bystanders.
What characterizes it would have to be the intentional and systematic slaughter of non-combatant civilians who were not engaging in battlefield maneuvers.
While this DID apparently happen in the American civil war, contributing to the civilian death toll of some 50,000 people, it was largely the actions of general Sherman, who unilaterally chose, regardless of actual orders, to burn entire cities.
I can’t speak for you, obviously, but if a group exhibits all the behavioral phenomenon we presently associate with, say fascism, EVEN IF the actions and events concerned occurred before fascism was ever recognized or named, illuminating these behavioral facets by CALLING it “fascism” still possess communicative utility. Maybe meet half way and call it proto-fascism.
Likewise, if one were to call Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman’s actions during the American Civil War “proto-tankie”, I’d be hard pressed to honestly disagree with them.
When it comes to the defining incidents of the term, though - the Prague Spring - the “rebellion” didn’t declare war, they merely elected someone the Soviets didn’t like, and for that, 165,000 troops and just over 4,600 tanks were dispatched and nearly ALL the resulting casualties were civilians, even with the elected leader of the time telling the civilians NOT to resist for the sake of their safety. Thankfully the number of civilian casualties were relatively few, with less than a hundred murdered and only just over 250 severely wounded.
The other oft-cited incident, the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, actually featured armed insurgency and makes no distinctions clear enough regarding how many of the ~3,000 Hungarian casualties exactly were armed, organized, and mobilized, so I for one hold it in less critical a light than what Sherman did in the American Civil War.
When it comes to what Petro Poroshenko did in Ukraine, he actually admitted on video that he intended to make civilians suffer and fear for their lives, to make children cower in basements, in order to coerce compliance from them. Them, meaning, people who didn’t even declare any intention to pick a fight with his administration in the first place! Punishing them for the “crime” of merely living in the same municipal area as alleged insurgents.
If you don’t want to call it “tankie”, fine.
But this IS a pattern of politically motivated state sponsored brutality that DOES recur throughout history and whatever you DO choose to call it deserves to be named, shamed, and blamed for giving Russia any justification whatsoever to “protect civilians” in the Donbas region by invading Ukraine.
In short, Lincoln wasn’t a tankie, but Sherman may have been a proto-tankie.
Yeah fr this “pen pal” thing has spread so far and its getting frustrating. The only response was a thank you from JQA’s son which is cool on its face but still. I see specifically “pen pals” and correspondence pop up constantly when it is demonstrably false. I don’t care for debate bro reddit types, but I feel we are sending people off to confidently say that only for them to be written off as soon as something easily disproven like that is said
also it wasn’t really Marx writing lincoln alone, it was a signed letter from the entire 1st international. Lincoln however was an avid reader of Utopian Socialist Horace Greeley’s newspaper (New York Tribune, not to be confused with New York Times); Lincoln called him “Uncle Horus,” and Marx published a lot of op-eds in said newspaper, so it is not entirely out of the question that Lincoln could have been exposed to a few of Marx’s op-eds.
Yeah didn’t Greeley also publish Weydemeyer or Wilich at that time? Who served in the Union as officers. And yeah it was on behalf of the entire org, though I think people get hung up on the fact that it was Marx himself who penned it
I wasn’t aware Willich and Weydeymeyer also wrote in Greeley’s Tribune but it doesn’t surprise me. I know when Willich moved to Connecticut from Prussia he started a German language abolitionist newspaper called the Republikaner for the immigrant community, before he enlisted in the civil war.