• AggressivelyPassive@feddit.de
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    7 months ago

    Talking about the “initial fault” in this conflict is moot. We’re at a point, where both sides can reasonably point to some events in the past and blame the other side for the conflict.

    Fact is, Iran is a theocratic dictatorship and its allies are religious fanatic militias, while Israel is a liberal democracy, supported by pretty much all of The West™. Of course the expectations towards Israel regarding human rights and international law are slightly higher. And let’s be honest, what Israel is doing right now is certainly not helping calming the situation, or even making long term peace.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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      7 months ago

      while Israel is a liberal democracy, supported by pretty much all of The West™.

      Man Israel has more than 5 million people under an occupation that denies them any and all human rights. They’re not a liberal democracy in any stretch of the word.

      • kurwa@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Israel is an authoritarian state, they throw people in jail for disagreeing with the government, or just being Palestinian / Muslim.

    • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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      7 months ago

      I don’t know if I fully buy that argument.

      If somebody supports Israel, they are supporting a genocide based on perceived land needs of the Israeli people.

      If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

      I don’t think we can get anywhere unless all of us as leftists acknowledge that the Jews of Israel will be in the same position the people of Palestine are in right now if we don’t thread the needle of support and guess what? We are not fucking threading that needle.

      • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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        7 months ago

        If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

        What? No significant player in Palestine is trying to do that.

        • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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          7 months ago

          If we pretend the “elected” government of Palestine is in significant than sure.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            7 months ago

            Uh… Hamas has tried to make peace with Israel before. Multiple times. Including two attempts to hand over Gaza to the PA and start peace negotiations. Israel has refused all of them.

            • StormFather@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza after the takeover in 2006. when did they ever attempt to give gaza back?

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                7 months ago

                So first, “Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza” ignores that it was the PA trying to overturn the result of democratic elections. Not saying Hamas didn’t do fucked up things either, but let’s not forget how it happened.

                That said, there were many efforts for reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. You’ll notice a theme of Israeli opposition to all of these.

                • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  nothing like throwing people off of roofs to show how democratic you are

                  israel being against reconcilliation does not effect hamas, they did it because they wanted to.

                  so…when did they try to give it back multiple times?

              • sazey@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                Israel was literally funding Hamas in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians and stop chances of a unified leadership arising. Netanyahu admitted to as much. It is an Israeli media source, inb4 muh bias.

                • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  the real reason he bribed them was to buy quite to appear as someone who is “strong against terorrism”

                  about the funding, so i guess hamas had no choice but to murder people in order to recieve more money. after all its not like they recieve millions in aid from all over world, the only funding is bibi so he gets to tell them how to act and who to kill

                  • sazey@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    Funding from “all over the world” doesn’t quite slap the same as funding from your nemesis. While Hamas may not receive play by play instructions from Israel, it cannot be denied that they were allowed to thrive to act as counterweight to more moderate elements and viewed as “an asset” (Smotrich’s words in 2016) to keep Palestinian unity movement divided fighting amongst themselves. This worked fairly well too until recent events, whereby Netanyahu and his like were able to benefit politically by waving the boogeyman of their own making instead of making a genuine effort at peace.

            • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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              7 months ago

              Israel isn’t the one rejecting the cease fire right now.

              • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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                7 months ago

                Uh… They are? Hamas has stated what they consider an acceptable ceasefire by listing their bare minimum “if we don’t get this there’s no point” demands and Israel keeps rejecting them. It’s Israel refusing to compromise here.

                Also you ignored my reply.

                • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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                  7 months ago

                  Uhm… No.

                  Hamas rejected the last ceasefire because they won’t hand over 40 hostages.

                  At least keep current of the news if you are pretending you care.