• WamGams@lemmy.ca
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    7 months ago

    I don’t know if I fully buy that argument.

    If somebody supports Israel, they are supporting a genocide based on perceived land needs of the Israeli people.

    If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

    I don’t think we can get anywhere unless all of us as leftists acknowledge that the Jews of Israel will be in the same position the people of Palestine are in right now if we don’t thread the needle of support and guess what? We are not fucking threading that needle.

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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      7 months ago

      If somebody supports Palestine, they are supporting a genocide based on the outright extermination of the Jewish people, funded by Iran and Qatar.

      What? No significant player in Palestine is trying to do that.

      • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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        7 months ago

        If we pretend the “elected” government of Palestine is in significant than sure.

        • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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          7 months ago

          Uh… Hamas has tried to make peace with Israel before. Multiple times. Including two attempts to hand over Gaza to the PA and start peace negotiations. Israel has refused all of them.

          • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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            7 months ago

            Israel isn’t the one rejecting the cease fire right now.

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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              7 months ago

              Uh… They are? Hamas has stated what they consider an acceptable ceasefire by listing their bare minimum “if we don’t get this there’s no point” demands and Israel keeps rejecting them. It’s Israel refusing to compromise here.

              Also you ignored my reply.

              • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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                7 months ago

                Uhm… No.

                Hamas rejected the last ceasefire because they won’t hand over 40 hostages.

                At least keep current of the news if you are pretending you care.

                  • WamGams@lemmy.ca
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                    7 months ago

                    If Hamas cared about their people (they don’t. That has been clear for 20 years), they would accept a cease fire, which only requires they give back the hostages.

          • StormFather@lemmy.world
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            7 months ago

            Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza after the takeover in 2006. when did they ever attempt to give gaza back?

            • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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              7 months ago

              So first, “Hamas killed all the PA in Gaza” ignores that it was the PA trying to overturn the result of democratic elections. Not saying Hamas didn’t do fucked up things either, but let’s not forget how it happened.

              That said, there were many efforts for reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah. You’ll notice a theme of Israeli opposition to all of these.

              • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                nothing like throwing people off of roofs to show how democratic you are

                israel being against reconcilliation does not effect hamas, they did it because they wanted to.

                so…when did they try to give it back multiple times?

            • sazey@lemmy.world
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              7 months ago

              Israel was literally funding Hamas in order to drive a wedge between Palestinians and stop chances of a unified leadership arising. Netanyahu admitted to as much. It is an Israeli media source, inb4 muh bias.

              • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                7 months ago

                the real reason he bribed them was to buy quite to appear as someone who is “strong against terorrism”

                about the funding, so i guess hamas had no choice but to murder people in order to recieve more money. after all its not like they recieve millions in aid from all over world, the only funding is bibi so he gets to tell them how to act and who to kill

                • sazey@lemmy.world
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                  7 months ago

                  Funding from “all over the world” doesn’t quite slap the same as funding from your nemesis. While Hamas may not receive play by play instructions from Israel, it cannot be denied that they were allowed to thrive to act as counterweight to more moderate elements and viewed as “an asset” (Smotrich’s words in 2016) to keep Palestinian unity movement divided fighting amongst themselves. This worked fairly well too until recent events, whereby Netanyahu and his like were able to benefit politically by waving the boogeyman of their own making instead of making a genuine effort at peace.

                  • StormFather@lemmy.world
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                    7 months ago

                    so despite having ulterior methods of funding, hamas killing their opposition is because of Israel approved Qatari payments. despite the payments being made a **decade **after the violent takeover? did the money go back in time and change the election results?

                    While Hamas may not receive play by play instructions from Israel, it cannot be denied that they were allowed to > thrive to act as counterweight to more moderate elements

                    they were allowed to thrive because Israel left Gaza and let them sort it out. if you look back to 2005, you will see that israel (along other western countries) openly supported fatah over hamas. from wiki(emphasis mine):

                    Hamas leader Ismail Haniya formed a new PA government on 29 March 2006 comprising mostly Hamas members. Fatah and other factions had refused to join, especially as Hamas refused to accept the Quartet’s conditions, such as recognition of Israel and earlier agreements. **As a result, a substantial part of the international community, especially Israel, the United States and European Union countries, refused to deal with the Hamas government and imposed sanctions **

                    compare to the PA in the same time(still wiki,emphasis mine):

                    According to the IISS, the June 2007 escalation was triggered by Hamas’ conviction that the PA’s Presidential Guard, loyal to Mahmoud Abbas, was being positioned to take control of Gaza. The US had helped build up the Presidential Guard to 3,500 men since August 2006. The US committed $59 million for training and non-lethal equipment for the Presidential Guard, and persuaded Arab allies to fund the purchase of further weapons. Israel, too, allowed light arms to flow to members of the Presidential Guard. Jordan and Egypt hosted at least two battalions for training

                    you can find many other instances of Israel supporting PA over hamas over the years. by the time bibi allowed funding to flow to hamas they had unquestioned military and civilian control in gaza.