The TL;DR of the rule is:
The 6 classic ability scores are (allegedly) not well-balanced among themselves. So the attempt is to fix that by:
- Combine Strength and Constitution
- Split Dexterity into 2 (basically, Dexterity: the stuff with your hands; and Agility: the stuff with your feet and body)
- Charisma becomes the stat for Will saves, instead of Wisdom
In short, do you agree with the stated goal of the system? Whether or not you do, do you think these particular changes are a good way of addressing that goal?
Have you ever tried out this variant, how does it go in practice?
I really like the rule in theory, but I haven’t got the chance to actually try it. I blame FoundryVTT not having it as an option, but if I really wanted it I could contribute to the project 🤷
I feel that as a martial you really want STR and CON, but both are not a priority for a ranged character, so it makes sense to me to combine them. Also it always bothered me that CON doesn’t has any skill attached.
DEX is not the god stat that it is in other D&D systems, but is still pretty strong being both a defensive and offensive stat. I think the alternative rule also makes it so you add DEX to damage? So it’s both a nerf and a buff, DEX martials no longer care about STR… Except they do because it now gives HP.
Charisma being the stat for Will makes sense from a “narrative” perspective, since CHA is supposed to be your force of personality ans whatnot. It’s a nerf to WIS though, and I don’t feel that WIS is that strong… PF2e made Perception it’s own thing, which I think was a good change since everybody wanted Perception/Sense Motive anyway, and I always thought it was overcomplicated that there were two skills about detecting stuff (nevermind D&D5e adding Investigation too…). But I think most people value WIS because they value Initiative, and I feel like it’s pretty underwhelming. It feels pretty bad for that it basically only matters in the first round of combat, so it can give you what’s effectively an extra turn, but that still doesn’t feel like a lot to me. I would pair the Alternative Ability Score rule with another homerule that is “roll initiative again each round”. To be fair I haven’t tried that one either, the concern is that it could make combat a slog, but in my experience PF2e combat rounds can go pretty quickly once the party gets into “rhythm”. And in any case, making a macro for that should be pretty easy.
So yeah, I plan to use it whenever I start another campaign, along with basically all the other variant rules (Gradual Ability Scores, Proficiency Without Level, Automatic Bonus Progression, Free Archetype, and Ancestral Paragon. No Dual Class because, while I love it in theory, the campaign where I’ve tried it is pretty wack with the power level of some PCs).
I think the alternative rule also makes it so you add DEX to damage?
Oh damn, so it does! I completely skimmed over that bit of it at first.
PF2e made Perception it’s own thing
Its own thing that’s still based in your Wisdom score.
DEX martials no longer care about STR… Except they do because it now gives HP.
This, I think, is the most interesting bit. I’ll have to mull it over a bit more, but it’s got me now thinking along the lines of “this variant may not accomplish the main goal it set out to at all”. Martials go from needing all 3 physical stats to…needing all 3 (different) physical stats. Non-martials go from needing 2 of the physical stats (dex & con) to…needing a different 2 physical stats (str and agi). With more time spent thinking about it, it might not end up actually being that bad, but it’s not a great first thought.
I like it in theory. In practice I think Wisdom already gets so little in this system that it would suck to take away its will save relevance
I think something like this is a really interesting idea. The Remaster might have been a good opportunity to try something like this on a larger scale, if they really do believe that “the classic ability scores aren’t of equal value”, considering the classic ability scores were chosen essentially for legacy D&D reasons.
I can’t speak to how they play out in practice in Pathfinder 2, because I’m far too new to the system. My experience with D&D has been that Charisma is incredibly useful, and I think this is more down to the way I play the game than to the system itself (a heavy emphasis on non-combat social roleplaying with skills like Intimidation, Persuasion/Diplomacy, and Deception being extremely valuable), so I expect that to transfer into my Pathfinder experience as well.
Splitting Dexterity up seems like something far more important in D&D than it would be in Pathfinder, since most characters won’t be using it for initiative here.
I agree. Strength is pretty valuable as it is important for combat maneuvers such as grappling, jumping etc. Also if you track carry weight it is more important.
Dex is imo not OP in Pathfinder due to how armor works. Dnd it is the so called God Stat.
Con is strong. Who does not like HP?
Intelligence and Charisma I can see being regarded as weaker. Both don’t have a save attached and are only directly important if your class needs it. However if the GM, adventure or players put any emphasis on recall knowledge and lore or social encounters being important this fixes itself. Int also gains a buff if languages are important in your adventure or world.
Lastly I think wisdom might be a bit strong. Perception is very powerful and it is the default initiative Stat. Also Wil saves. Mechanically very strong. Perception is also used for what dnd calls insight or sense motive. And survival can, depending on setting, be an important skill of not. But I think the imbalance isn’t too horrific and imo I wouldn’t go as far as change the system too much for it. And initiative can be shifted to other skills by being smart which fixes a lot.
Perception is very powerful
In D&D I’ve always seen this statement and thought it overrated to be honest (at least if you’re not running a trap-filled dungeon-crawl). But Pathfinder puts what D&D 5e uses “Insight” for into Perception, which makes it far, far more important. (Of course, it’s Wisdom-based in either system, so the relevance to the relative importance of each ability is the same.)
