“Just because there are two sides doesn’t mean they both have points worth listening to.”
I’m well aware of what the right’s “side” is. It’s bigoted and out of date. Unless they suddenly start accepting people for who they are I don’t need to give them any more of my time or thoughts. That’s not being “dug in” or “stubborn”, it means I’m saying no to hating people and they need to change their stance if they want to get me to vote for them ever again.
Jesus what a stupid take, to actually believe that liberals are “experimenting on children”. Seriously. Stop and really really think to yourself if that’s happening. What, is this some horror movie with a terrified child with a single bulb swinging overhead, while the doctor evilly rubs his hands together. “Ah ha, yes, now to destroy traditional America evil laugh”
Surgeries, gender altering surgeries, are usually held off until 18, and if they’re not I really don’t understand why the government needs to have a say in something that a parent and child decide on. Drugs, puberty blockers have no long term effects and even then again, why does the government need to step in and say what a doctor should or not prescribe when the parents have been informed. and even then these are usually the minority of trans kids, and even then most parents do in fact have rules in place to wait until 18.
You know really what most liberals want? For people to be comfortable with themselves. To not have big government tell them that if they feel more comfortable wearing jeans and a tshirt over a dress that they should be allowed to. That if a child says “I don’t like playing with monster trucks, can I play with a doll instead?” that we can say yes, absolutely you can.
I truly don’t understand how anyone can be against that. I really don’t understand why people think they need to have a say in how other people raise children. This all from the party of “small government”, but then demands that they raise children a certain way.
But I’m sure by now you’ve completely ignored my point, and you have more fox news rage bait responses readied up to fire back at me. Please, tell me how you want big federal government to tell us what to do.
Jesus what a stupid take, to actually believe that liberals are “experimenting on children”.
What would you call it? It’s using drugs for reasons they’re not approved for, to do surgeries that have massive lists of complications and even without complications will require literal daily care for the rest of their life, when there are no long term studies done on either of these things. The long term effects of “puberty blockers” are unknown. It’s literal experimentation at this stage because there have been no long term studies. How is it not experimenting? We do know however that they’re not 100% reversible - you just need to look at many transgender people that took them to see that. Boys that were “girls” that are now sterile thanks to taking puberty blockers and HRT, etc.
Surgeries, gender altering surgeries, are usually held off until 18, and if they’re not I really don’t understand why the government needs to have a say in something that a parent and child decide on.
“Usually” doesn’t cut it. You don’t understand why life altering elective surgeries shouldn’t be government regulated? A child cannot consent to these surgeries or treatments. They do not have the mental capacity to do so. Let me ask you this - would you let a 10 year old get a tattoo? What if they really want it, and their parents are ok with it? You think they should be able to go and get a nice big dragon tattoo on the side of their head?
puberty blockers have no long term effects
This has been disproven time and time again. You can’t just “pause” puberty and then have it pick up right where it left off, it doesn’t work that way, physically or mentally. The NHS for example changed their literature from “The effects of treatment with GnRH analogues are considered to be fully reversible” to “Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be. It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”. Other countries have now started doing the same. Why would they be doing this if “the science is settled”?
To not have big government tell them that if they feel more comfortable wearing jeans and a tshirt over a dress that they should be allowed to. That if a child says “I don’t like playing with monster trucks, can I play with a doll instead?” that we can say yes, absolutely you can.
The problem is that no one is telling kids that if they’re a boy they have to play with a monster truck, but one side are saying “if you play with a monster truck you must be a boy, so if you’re a girl we should start you on puberty blockers right away!”. The “liberals” are the ones using stereotypes of “if you are comfortable wearing jeans and a tshirt over a dress then you must be a boy”, not the other way around.
I really don’t understand why people think they need to have a say in how other people raise children.
Really? So you would be ok with parents teaching their kids that black people should be slaves, that it’s ok for adults to have sex with them, and that they can go and murder the next door neighbours cat if they want to? No one should have a say in that or be against it?
Please, tell me how you want big federal government to tell us what to do.
So you’re just anti-government? Do you object to murder being illegal? That’s letting the “big federal government to tell us what to do” isn’t it?
Okay most of these are in fact just conservative talking points. A couple hypotheticals for you then.
A 16 year old male has felt like a female since they were 8. They have worn dresses, they went by another name, they do not want to be male. They have asked their parents for oh, 4 years to be put on blockers to help them lower their voice and cut down on facial hair, they legitimately want this. Let’s just assume the drugs are 100% safe, as safe as drugs ever can be. Would you be okay with this?
Follow up then, who decides when the drugs are safe? Is it when your family doctor says they are? When the FDA says they are (or whoever your equivalent is)?
Reason I switch this to hypotheticals is because the argument isn’t about if they are safe or not, it’s about consent. If drugs/procedures are safe is already well defined in all of our governments. You’re right, a 10 year old can’t get a tattoo because there is no need for a 10 year old to get a tattoo. But should it be allowed for a 17 year old who has fully swapped to female after 9 years of acting as one? I’m legit asking you if they should. and if you’re answer is no, why is it no, truly?
I’m asking this way because really I’m trying to get you to see our side, that it’s not as “crazy” as conservative media is making it out to be. You actually already agree with us for the most part, that people should be allowed to dress and act the way they want, and honestly that’s 90% of what they’re fighting for, literally just to exist, to not be demonized. This one bit here is honestly just a small concern to most liberals, but it’s been blown waaaaay out of proportion by the media. To me it’s a detail, a footnote in the argument on the trans rights movement.
I actually think you and I are closer on this than the news articles would have us believe. My personal belief is that if the drugs are safe and approved by doctors, and they are reversible, I would let my kids go on them. I, as a parent, would not let them have anything irreversible done until they were 18. Personally I would sit them down and say something like “I completely understand, and I understand that you are in high school and feel like this is forever, but I want you to go into this with a full clear head knowing you made the right decision, not because of what factors in school make you want, but because you yourself want it”, and personally would have them hold off until 18. Anything reversible is fine, but again I think we agree, kids are fickle, I know I was, I thought long greasy hair was totally in. It was not.
If by “conservative talking points” You just actually mean “actual real questions that need to be asked and points that need to be raised” I guess they are. I’m not a “conservative” btw.
No, a 16 year old should not be getting life altering drugs or surgery for “gender dysphoria”.
who decides when the drugs are safe
The regulatory bodies like the FDA for a start.
because there is no need for a 10 year old to get a tattoo
Just like there’s no need for them to be developmentally stunting themselves and likely sterilising themselves and subjecting themselves to life long problems over something that they don’t have the mental capacity to understand.
If a person can’t be trusted to vote, drink, drive, get a tattoo, or any other number of things that society has deemed kids aren’t allowed to do, there should be no way they are allowed to mutilate their bodies and/or cause permanent life long damage with drugs.
Trans people aren’t “fighting to exist”. People just don’t want trans people encouraging kids to get surgery and drugs, and they don’t want them in the opposite sex-specific spaces and sports.
You’re right, we do seem to agree on a lot and I’m thankful for the actual conversation where you didn’t just jump to telling nazi/bigot/transphobe.
I completely disagreed with you saying puberty blockers are completely reversible though, as I’ve said already. A 16 year old boy that has been on puberty blockers since they were 10 root examples is going to have a micro penis that will never grow to full size, they’ll be short, their voice will be high pitched, and that’s going to make life a hell of a lot worse for them. Those things aren’t reversible.
I have no doubt that in 10 years time puberty blockers are going to be illegal for “gender dysphoria” and there are going to be a lot of lawsuits by adults that should not have been put on them in the first place as children.
There are studies that show that 90%+ of children with “gender dysphoria” if left alone grow out of it. That should be evidence enough that kids need to be outlawed from these drugs and surgeries.
Then I think we mostly agree on trans rights as an issue, and that’s something that both sides are telling us that we disagree on.
I agree with you about being nervous about the drugs and surgury, and already gave my opinion on how I personally would handle it. To me, it should be a decision between a doctor, parent, and child, I just don’t see how the government needs to be involved beyond saying “yes or no they are safe or not”. Personally though, any life-altering forever things I’d probably hold off until 18 as a parent, just like I said “I want you (child) to fully understand what is going to happen to you before you commit your life to it.”
From what I’ve read, for the most part the drugs are not as bad as you are making them out to be. It may be a good time for both of us to research how the other side uses/understands the drugs. I’m going to do some honest research into the dangers of them, will you do the same and also look up the positive impacts too? I honestly think we’ve both learned something and can take something away from this thread, and hey, a bit better then reddit arguments lol
“Just because there are two sides doesn’t mean they both have points worth listening to.”
I’m well aware of what the right’s “side” is. It’s bigoted and out of date. Unless they suddenly start accepting people for who they are I don’t need to give them any more of my time or thoughts. That’s not being “dug in” or “stubborn”, it means I’m saying no to hating people and they need to change their stance if they want to get me to vote for them ever again.
Ironic considering the people that won’t accept themselves for who they are.
Adults can be trans all they want, call yourself whatever gender you want - just stop experimenting on children with surgeries and drugs.
Jesus what a stupid take, to actually believe that liberals are “experimenting on children”. Seriously. Stop and really really think to yourself if that’s happening. What, is this some horror movie with a terrified child with a single bulb swinging overhead, while the doctor evilly rubs his hands together. “Ah ha, yes, now to destroy traditional America evil laugh”
Surgeries, gender altering surgeries, are usually held off until 18, and if they’re not I really don’t understand why the government needs to have a say in something that a parent and child decide on. Drugs, puberty blockers have no long term effects and even then again, why does the government need to step in and say what a doctor should or not prescribe when the parents have been informed. and even then these are usually the minority of trans kids, and even then most parents do in fact have rules in place to wait until 18.
You know really what most liberals want? For people to be comfortable with themselves. To not have big government tell them that if they feel more comfortable wearing jeans and a tshirt over a dress that they should be allowed to. That if a child says “I don’t like playing with monster trucks, can I play with a doll instead?” that we can say yes, absolutely you can.
I truly don’t understand how anyone can be against that. I really don’t understand why people think they need to have a say in how other people raise children. This all from the party of “small government”, but then demands that they raise children a certain way.
But I’m sure by now you’ve completely ignored my point, and you have more fox news rage bait responses readied up to fire back at me. Please, tell me how you want big federal government to tell us what to do.
What would you call it? It’s using drugs for reasons they’re not approved for, to do surgeries that have massive lists of complications and even without complications will require literal daily care for the rest of their life, when there are no long term studies done on either of these things. The long term effects of “puberty blockers” are unknown. It’s literal experimentation at this stage because there have been no long term studies. How is it not experimenting? We do know however that they’re not 100% reversible - you just need to look at many transgender people that took them to see that. Boys that were “girls” that are now sterile thanks to taking puberty blockers and HRT, etc.
“Usually” doesn’t cut it. You don’t understand why life altering elective surgeries shouldn’t be government regulated? A child cannot consent to these surgeries or treatments. They do not have the mental capacity to do so. Let me ask you this - would you let a 10 year old get a tattoo? What if they really want it, and their parents are ok with it? You think they should be able to go and get a nice big dragon tattoo on the side of their head?
This has been disproven time and time again. You can’t just “pause” puberty and then have it pick up right where it left off, it doesn’t work that way, physically or mentally. The NHS for example changed their literature from “The effects of treatment with GnRH analogues are considered to be fully reversible” to “Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be. It’s also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children’s bones. Side effects may also include hot flushes, fatigue and mood alterations.”. Other countries have now started doing the same. Why would they be doing this if “the science is settled”?
The problem is that no one is telling kids that if they’re a boy they have to play with a monster truck, but one side are saying “if you play with a monster truck you must be a boy, so if you’re a girl we should start you on puberty blockers right away!”. The “liberals” are the ones using stereotypes of “if you are comfortable wearing jeans and a tshirt over a dress then you must be a boy”, not the other way around.
Really? So you would be ok with parents teaching their kids that black people should be slaves, that it’s ok for adults to have sex with them, and that they can go and murder the next door neighbours cat if they want to? No one should have a say in that or be against it?
So you’re just anti-government? Do you object to murder being illegal? That’s letting the “big federal government to tell us what to do” isn’t it?
Okay most of these are in fact just conservative talking points. A couple hypotheticals for you then.
A 16 year old male has felt like a female since they were 8. They have worn dresses, they went by another name, they do not want to be male. They have asked their parents for oh, 4 years to be put on blockers to help them lower their voice and cut down on facial hair, they legitimately want this. Let’s just assume the drugs are 100% safe, as safe as drugs ever can be. Would you be okay with this?
Follow up then, who decides when the drugs are safe? Is it when your family doctor says they are? When the FDA says they are (or whoever your equivalent is)?
Reason I switch this to hypotheticals is because the argument isn’t about if they are safe or not, it’s about consent. If drugs/procedures are safe is already well defined in all of our governments. You’re right, a 10 year old can’t get a tattoo because there is no need for a 10 year old to get a tattoo. But should it be allowed for a 17 year old who has fully swapped to female after 9 years of acting as one? I’m legit asking you if they should. and if you’re answer is no, why is it no, truly?
I’m asking this way because really I’m trying to get you to see our side, that it’s not as “crazy” as conservative media is making it out to be. You actually already agree with us for the most part, that people should be allowed to dress and act the way they want, and honestly that’s 90% of what they’re fighting for, literally just to exist, to not be demonized. This one bit here is honestly just a small concern to most liberals, but it’s been blown waaaaay out of proportion by the media. To me it’s a detail, a footnote in the argument on the trans rights movement.
I actually think you and I are closer on this than the news articles would have us believe. My personal belief is that if the drugs are safe and approved by doctors, and they are reversible, I would let my kids go on them. I, as a parent, would not let them have anything irreversible done until they were 18. Personally I would sit them down and say something like “I completely understand, and I understand that you are in high school and feel like this is forever, but I want you to go into this with a full clear head knowing you made the right decision, not because of what factors in school make you want, but because you yourself want it”, and personally would have them hold off until 18. Anything reversible is fine, but again I think we agree, kids are fickle, I know I was, I thought long greasy hair was totally in. It was not.
If by “conservative talking points” You just actually mean “actual real questions that need to be asked and points that need to be raised” I guess they are. I’m not a “conservative” btw.
No, a 16 year old should not be getting life altering drugs or surgery for “gender dysphoria”.
The regulatory bodies like the FDA for a start.
Just like there’s no need for them to be developmentally stunting themselves and likely sterilising themselves and subjecting themselves to life long problems over something that they don’t have the mental capacity to understand.
If a person can’t be trusted to vote, drink, drive, get a tattoo, or any other number of things that society has deemed kids aren’t allowed to do, there should be no way they are allowed to mutilate their bodies and/or cause permanent life long damage with drugs.
Trans people aren’t “fighting to exist”. People just don’t want trans people encouraging kids to get surgery and drugs, and they don’t want them in the opposite sex-specific spaces and sports.
You’re right, we do seem to agree on a lot and I’m thankful for the actual conversation where you didn’t just jump to telling nazi/bigot/transphobe.
I completely disagreed with you saying puberty blockers are completely reversible though, as I’ve said already. A 16 year old boy that has been on puberty blockers since they were 10 root examples is going to have a micro penis that will never grow to full size, they’ll be short, their voice will be high pitched, and that’s going to make life a hell of a lot worse for them. Those things aren’t reversible.
I have no doubt that in 10 years time puberty blockers are going to be illegal for “gender dysphoria” and there are going to be a lot of lawsuits by adults that should not have been put on them in the first place as children.
There are studies that show that 90%+ of children with “gender dysphoria” if left alone grow out of it. That should be evidence enough that kids need to be outlawed from these drugs and surgeries.
https://kffhealthnews.org/morning-breakout/research-on-children-growing-out-of-gender-dysphoria-adds-layer-of-complexity-to-transgender-care/
https://nypost.com/2023/02/22/four-out-of-five-kids-who-question-their-gender-grow-out-of-it-trans-expert/
Then I think we mostly agree on trans rights as an issue, and that’s something that both sides are telling us that we disagree on.
I agree with you about being nervous about the drugs and surgury, and already gave my opinion on how I personally would handle it. To me, it should be a decision between a doctor, parent, and child, I just don’t see how the government needs to be involved beyond saying “yes or no they are safe or not”. Personally though, any life-altering forever things I’d probably hold off until 18 as a parent, just like I said “I want you (child) to fully understand what is going to happen to you before you commit your life to it.”
From what I’ve read, for the most part the drugs are not as bad as you are making them out to be. It may be a good time for both of us to research how the other side uses/understands the drugs. I’m going to do some honest research into the dangers of them, will you do the same and also look up the positive impacts too? I honestly think we’ve both learned something and can take something away from this thread, and hey, a bit better then reddit arguments lol
The only benefits of puberty blockers are emotional/mental, which unfortunately is hard to quantify.
I’m always up for learning though so I will look at it from the other perspective and give it a go.
Cheers for the healthy conversation!