I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I’m not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.
All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.
Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven’t been back since.
I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.
Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn’t find anything that accepted men.
I didn’t need a “mens only” group, just someone who wouldn’t turn me away due to my gender.
I finally reached out to one of the women’s groups going “Look, I know I’m not your demo, but I hope you can direct me…”
They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.
There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.
Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.
The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a “sorry, we aren’t taking new patients”, they just completely ghosted us.
My wife finally found a therapist who would “see” her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.
But after all that… it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren’t as lucky.
I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:
It’s the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I’ve been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it’s only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn’t do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn’t, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it’s probably better than this.
UnInsured? Skip step 2 and 3
Find your health care card. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.
Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.
Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.
Mass email to all of them. “Hi. I’m dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients.” Send.
Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you’re really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.
Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.
If they’re not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you’re at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.
Hopefully you find someone that’s a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.
This is all great advice. The issue I in particular have and a lot of other guys probably do as well is that I only ever get like 4-5 sessions with any therapist before they basically start booting me out the door. The issue is that per society I’m perfectly functional. I work, I pay my bills, I take good enough care of myself that I function. I’ve never attempted suicide (although stats show most guys only attempt is the sucsessful one.) I’m a low priority. I’m not a statistically high suicide risk. I’m not at risk of becomming homeless. I’m not being abused or abusing drugs. I’m already receiving medication that kind of works. All in all my situation is not dire so naturally the people who are in a more dire situation get prioritized and there are a lot of people in more dire situations.
I have enough of a medical background to know how triage works and I get that that is what is happening but it still just sucks. No place will actually keep me on long enough for me to improve at all and even if I do start to improve I get dumped at the first slightest sign of improvement. So I’m just stuck perpetually “functioning”. It’s kind of like the wellfare cliff. I’m doing just well enough that there’s no long term help available.
I read your response with interest and empathy. However, I feel it’s important to address a few misconceptions for the benefit of anyone reading this.
Firstly, the idea that mental health practitioners prioritize patients based on their societal functionality or perceived risk level is not accurate. In the United States, mental health professionals are bound by ethical guidelines that stress the importance of client-centered care. This means that treatment decisions should be based on individual needs and therapeutic goals, not on a patient’s external life circumstances like job stability or living situation.
If you’ve repeatedly been discharged from therapy after only a few sessions, this is concerning and not a standard practice in mental health care. Therapists are trained to provide ongoing support, and decisions to conclude therapy should ideally be mutual and based on progress and goals, not on arbitrary measures of functionality.
Also, the concept of ‘triage’ in mental health doesn’t operate the same way as in emergency medical settings. While it’s true that individuals in crisis might need immediate attention, this doesn’t mean others are deemed ‘low priority.’ Everyone’s mental health needs are important, and a good therapist understands this.
If you or anyone else feels that your therapy is being prematurely concluded or that you’re not getting the depth of support you need, it’s crucial to bring this up with your therapist. If the issue persists, seeking a second opinion or a different therapist might be necessary. It’s important to find a therapist who resonates with your needs and provides the required level of support.
While your experiences are valid and unfortunate, they are not reflective of standard mental health practice. I encourage anyone seeking therapy to advocate for their needs and keep searching for a therapist who offers the right support and commitment.
Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women’s DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)
Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one “somebody” will do it for you.
I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.
It’s not especially surprising to hear. Women are raised their whole lives to play emotional support with everyone.
Which is also why all their friends invariably turn into unrequited love: they’re just treating their guy friend identically to how they treat their women friends, but the guy’s never received the basic decency of consideration unless it was romantic.
But men are trained to problem solve whatever they can’t stuff down and ignore, aren’t they? And from what I’ve heard, hanging out generally prohibits anything emotionally heavy?
They’re logically in the same position you are. I would find it hard to believe at least one person among them doesn’t relate. It would make more sense to me to wonder if they just…have no idea how to be supportive. A distressing number of grown men can’t even put a name to their feelings beyond “sad” and “pissed off.”
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that? A friend who doesn’t care to address what you’re going through or to rectify that kind of relationship disconnect when it’s brought up isn’t really a friend. Maybe an acquaintance at best.
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that?
They are either dismissive or don’t understand. I often have to educate them on topics of mental health which is tiring after years without support of my own.
In my experience as the female friend, no, this is common. However, perhaps you should ask yourself why this is. Men as a whole class in our society do not seem able to connect emotionally and empathically with each other because they haven’t learned how to. You can (as a group) learn to do this, but you collectively need to decide you want to and to act.
So become the founding member of the Boys Club. It’s not necessarily going to be easy, but if it’s worth doing, you should stick to it.
Edit: I was the leader of a labor organizing group for a year or so until it was shut down by state shenanigans… So I do have experience in building a group and solidarity.
I seriously appreciate all of the points you’re making, but the idea of men and women as cohesive social units here might not be realistic or helpful, especially for issues affecting sub-groups. Sometimes the people actively working to improve something are fighting an uphill battle against societal expectations and/or larger portions of their own group who don’t recognize it as an issue. I’m sure you know that doesn’t make it any less valid.
Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example.
Isn’t this essentially victim blaming and overlooks the very real societal issues and trama that hinders men getting support? You know funding, not being believed by both sexes, lack of awareness, society just not generally caring about men, etc
No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
Maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but I find the wording of your original post is more detrimental. Men have to do something if they want help! No we all have to do something.
Women care. I care about this poor man’s story (edit: and women’s groups helped out OP to find a group that he could join). But we have our hands full with our own issues. And partnering with good men is part of the success of women’s efforts to help themselves.
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead. Women will help but men need to drive. For example, men’s DV shelter services could probably most easily be added by partnering with a women’s DV shelter so that there is men’s aid in place (though less likely to be needed, depending on location and population density) so it may look a bit different. Men could reach out and drive the development of a partnership program.
I think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
It is your issue. Your brother, cousin, friend, someone you care about could be going through the same thing. Imagine if this line of thinking was applied to women’s sufferage?
think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
That makes no sense. Without gaining support from the other side you get no resolution. Especially when the other Side is literally your abuser. I don’t expect shit from white ppl and that’s literally the problem. WE NEED THEM TO CARE. Society doesn’t change unless everyone cares about the issue at hand. In no shape or form does systemic racism end without white ppl
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead.
I understand what your saying but the overall comment shows the real problem. We are harsher and less caring about the issue in general. Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it. That if things aren’t being changed that’s its their own fault.
Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it.
Historically speaking, it is.
I think ideally, waiting around for The Correct Group to fix a known problem is insane and pointless as fuck. And you’re right, both on paper and with a morality any non-sociopathic 2nd grader should be able to manage.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there. We’ve been left to fix every problem we have more or less by ourselves, and had to pay dearly for every inch of it. I say, as we visibly stand here losing ground again.
Women weren’t allowed to vote? Couldn’t serve in the army? Hold jobs? We protested til we could.
We had no public bathrooms, forcibly leasing us to a set vicinity from our own home? We made two associations about it, men destroyed a model bathroom by driving a cab through it, and the idea only finally took hold because of cholera.
Couldn’t divorce? We murdered abusive husbands we couldn’t escape and continued lobbying. Same with controlling our own money.
Couldn’t wear pants? We wore them anyway, often in the face of sustained verbal and physical abuse, until men just got used to us wearing different clothing.
Every women’s scholarship was left behind by a woman who didn’t get a scholarship, found success anyway, and left a ladder for others who needed it. Men aren’t doing this nearly as often for reasons I don’t understand.
The first battered women’s shelters in Japan? Started by women. Australia, Germany, Italy? The UK and the US? All women. The first in the US was a random storefront with an apartment in the back that a handful of women repurposed. It was initially run entirely on donations they got from selling crafts. The police didn’t appreciate it and rarely if ever lifted a hand except to show a dangerous amount of indifference to threats.
On its face, it’s venomous to see a problem and tell someone to just deal with it themselves. In reality, we have done all of this ourselves, always with significant pushback.
This is where we are when the other half of the planet swears up and down they can’t do exactly the thing that we did. Yes, you can. If you need shelters, so did we and we opened them. We were forced to stand up for ourselves if we wanted anything fixed, and we did so.
Now, whenever this comes up, men want us to fix their problems for them too. Especially egregious since a lot of times, they’re the ones society takes at all seriously. They’re the ones with the funding, not that that was ever a valid excuse for us. We can barely get y’all to treat us like fellow humans if we stick y’all in prison for it and even that isn’t helping, but your work is still being laid at our feet.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
I don’t think I can begin to describe how frustrating that is, and the kind of bitter anger that it breeds. Nothing is stopping you.
I’ll admit, as dismissive as it looks, part of me was reading the head comment and going, “so why don’t you just…start a group? There’s clearly a niche, surely they aren’t the only one in that entire state going through this.”
We care. Sometimes brutally. It’s not like we can’t relate to what that’s like, you know? But you’re not, as a class, less capable than we were. It isn’t whether we morally should, it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
This was never the kind of thread to be writing shit like this. Certainly not suicide, I have a military buddy who’s the last one standing out of his entire squad, that all committed suicide, and he won’t goddamn go to therapy.
But the experience, as always, of begging men to do anything at all to fix any issue they are having is. Maddening.
Well considering you’re leaving out the various groups of men and women of color who are collectively fixing/fixed their joint problems, including the Black Panther party, NFWA, NAACP, CORE, AAPA etc. This notion that men are incapable of fixing their own problems with women having to do everything is insulting and just flat out wrong. And let’s not ignore that in America the women’s rights pursuit has always been fragmented with women of color (particularly black women) being left to fend for themselves. Sorjourner Truth had a bit to say about this. So let’s not act like women were this collective united force in America.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there.
And there it is. This speaks volumes. That somehow men’s issues are less than because of general accepted bitterness. That since you had to struggle you feel that you are morally absolved of helping (not doing all the work) and I’ve yet to see any joint societal problem affecting both sexes that was solved 100% by a single sex.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
So that somehow negates the fact that it’d be nice if 50% of society also chipped in to help? And since where using anecdotal. It’d be nice for women to actually know that men are so starved for any kind of positive reinforcement from the opposite sex.
it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
BECAUSE THEY DO BELONG TO YOU. An injustice against anyone is an injustice against everyone. Do you think domestic violence against women didn’t negatively affect men? Doing nothing until it’s your problem is what leds to nazis. Empathy and sympathy is so important and it’s needed for any and all change.
The more i debate the more the argument devolve into, “fuck you got mine”. We figured it out on our own (even though you really didn’t) and that literally asking 50% of the population not to do all the work but to simply help a very fragile and hurt group of ppl. And the most ironic part is the constant argument that MEN DON’T ASK FOR HELP. But when we do, “fuck you got mine”
I’m in a good place now, but I take a lot of meds (some of which are literal poison) and a very expensive infusion. I have excellent insurance, but six years to get back to being able to move has been fun.
I can partially speak to this from the inside so to speak. I’m not that old, but I had a heart attack and open heart surgery at the end of 2018 and complication after complication through all of 2019.
All of which puts me at greater risk for depression and suicide.
Just when I was medically cleared to go back to the office, we shut down for covid and I haven’t been back since.
I started looking for a support group for heart attack/open heart surgery survivors and it was far, far more difficult than I thought.
Plenty of support groups for other conditions, plenty of support groups that advertised as women only, I really couldn’t find anything that accepted men.
I didn’t need a “mens only” group, just someone who wouldn’t turn me away due to my gender.
I finally reached out to one of the women’s groups going “Look, I know I’m not your demo, but I hope you can direct me…”
They set me up with a national org, https://mendedhearts.org/ who had an unbranded chapter in my area and I got to talk to people in my situation, it helped, but it was not easy getting there.
There were other problems during lockdown, I became a victim of domestic violence, against which I was helpless due to my medical conditions.
Same problem. No real support for male victims of domestic violence either.
The police directed me to various mental health agencies, for both myself and my wife, but this was peak covid and NONE of them called us back. NONE. Not even a “sorry, we aren’t taking new patients”, they just completely ghosted us.
My wife finally found a therapist who would “see” her remotely, which was a condition of our staying married, and things did get better.
But after all that… it was really dumb luck. Other folks aren’t as lucky.
I just want to say something about the mental health practitioners not calling back:
It’s the worst part about getting help is how hard it is to find. This is true for all folks, too. So, I just want to provide a quick how-to because I’ve been through that particular step 5 or 6 times and it’s only slightly less annoying when you know the best steps to take. Not saying you didn’t do all these things, and not saying you shoulda known if you didn’t, but this is for anyone reading this. This also only applies for US. Idk how other countries do it, but it’s probably better than this.
UnInsured? Skip step 2 and 3
Find your health care card. Call the number(s) on the back. Reach a human (never easy). Ask for a list of mental healthcare practitioners that are within x miles of CITY. use biggest nearby city for best results. Or just say STATE if your state is small enough. Regional accuracies may vary.
Go to psychologytoday.com or google around for another mental healthcare finder. Use the list you got from your insurer.
Search by your conditions at a site line psychologytoday.com. curate as long a list of options as you can for your area.
Mass email to all of them. “Hi. I’m dealing with SYMPTOMS, I have this healthcare. I was wondering if you were accepting new patients.” Send.
Within 1 week, if you have no response, re email all of them and say you got no response and you’re really trying to find help, and if they could give you recommendations, that would be great.
Setup appointments. First sessions suck. And it takes a solid 3 sessions to know for sure if someone is a possible fit.
If they’re not a good fit, you go back to your list. This repetition is exhausting, especially because when you finally reach out for help, you’re at a breaking point, and all of this feels like too much already. Keep going.
Hopefully you find someone that’s a good fit through this process. It sucks. Hang in there.
Yeah, the Psychology Today site was the one the police directed me to and the one who ghosted us the hardest. :(
Therapist Den or Inclusive Therapists are much better. Mental Health Match is not bad either.
This is all great advice. The issue I in particular have and a lot of other guys probably do as well is that I only ever get like 4-5 sessions with any therapist before they basically start booting me out the door. The issue is that per society I’m perfectly functional. I work, I pay my bills, I take good enough care of myself that I function. I’ve never attempted suicide (although stats show most guys only attempt is the sucsessful one.) I’m a low priority. I’m not a statistically high suicide risk. I’m not at risk of becomming homeless. I’m not being abused or abusing drugs. I’m already receiving medication that kind of works. All in all my situation is not dire so naturally the people who are in a more dire situation get prioritized and there are a lot of people in more dire situations.
I have enough of a medical background to know how triage works and I get that that is what is happening but it still just sucks. No place will actually keep me on long enough for me to improve at all and even if I do start to improve I get dumped at the first slightest sign of improvement. So I’m just stuck perpetually “functioning”. It’s kind of like the wellfare cliff. I’m doing just well enough that there’s no long term help available.
I read your response with interest and empathy. However, I feel it’s important to address a few misconceptions for the benefit of anyone reading this.
Firstly, the idea that mental health practitioners prioritize patients based on their societal functionality or perceived risk level is not accurate. In the United States, mental health professionals are bound by ethical guidelines that stress the importance of client-centered care. This means that treatment decisions should be based on individual needs and therapeutic goals, not on a patient’s external life circumstances like job stability or living situation.
If you’ve repeatedly been discharged from therapy after only a few sessions, this is concerning and not a standard practice in mental health care. Therapists are trained to provide ongoing support, and decisions to conclude therapy should ideally be mutual and based on progress and goals, not on arbitrary measures of functionality.
Also, the concept of ‘triage’ in mental health doesn’t operate the same way as in emergency medical settings. While it’s true that individuals in crisis might need immediate attention, this doesn’t mean others are deemed ‘low priority.’ Everyone’s mental health needs are important, and a good therapist understands this.
If you or anyone else feels that your therapy is being prematurely concluded or that you’re not getting the depth of support you need, it’s crucial to bring this up with your therapist. If the issue persists, seeking a second opinion or a different therapist might be necessary. It’s important to find a therapist who resonates with your needs and provides the required level of support.
While your experiences are valid and unfortunate, they are not reflective of standard mental health practice. I encourage anyone seeking therapy to advocate for their needs and keep searching for a therapist who offers the right support and commitment.
Men can help each other and SHOULD help each other. Women’s groups exist because women recognized issues and organized themselves to help each other. This is why women’s DV shelters exist, for example. (BTW, women’s DV shelters may help men in need, there are arrangements that can be made to help but keep women and kids separated for their mental health and safety.)
Men can do the same thing and should do the same thing. Perhaps growing that sense of community and learning how to help others will build the social support that men seem to be lacking. But you men have to do it collectively yourself - no one “somebody” will do it for you.
I hope you are doing better these days. (Edit): I do not expect you personally to be able to do the hard work of organizing a DV shelter. This is why it is so important for men as a class to work together to support each other too.
thats good and all but am I the only man who can pretty much only connect with women, on an emotional level?
I’ve had some good male friends but expecting them to understand or relate is very difficult.
It’s not especially surprising to hear. Women are raised their whole lives to play emotional support with everyone.
Which is also why all their friends invariably turn into unrequited love: they’re just treating their guy friend identically to how they treat their women friends, but the guy’s never received the basic decency of consideration unless it was romantic.
But men are trained to problem solve whatever they can’t stuff down and ignore, aren’t they? And from what I’ve heard, hanging out generally prohibits anything emotionally heavy?
They’re logically in the same position you are. I would find it hard to believe at least one person among them doesn’t relate. It would make more sense to me to wonder if they just…have no idea how to be supportive. A distressing number of grown men can’t even put a name to their feelings beyond “sad” and “pissed off.”
What do they do if you just…tell them you feel like that? A friend who doesn’t care to address what you’re going through or to rectify that kind of relationship disconnect when it’s brought up isn’t really a friend. Maybe an acquaintance at best.
They are either dismissive or don’t understand. I often have to educate them on topics of mental health which is tiring after years without support of my own.
In my experience as the female friend, no, this is common. However, perhaps you should ask yourself why this is. Men as a whole class in our society do not seem able to connect emotionally and empathically with each other because they haven’t learned how to. You can (as a group) learn to do this, but you collectively need to decide you want to and to act.
Let me just bring it up at the next Boys Club meeting /s
So become the founding member of the Boys Club. It’s not necessarily going to be easy, but if it’s worth doing, you should stick to it.
Edit: I was the leader of a labor organizing group for a year or so until it was shut down by state shenanigans… So I do have experience in building a group and solidarity.
I seriously appreciate all of the points you’re making, but the idea of men and women as cohesive social units here might not be realistic or helpful, especially for issues affecting sub-groups. Sometimes the people actively working to improve something are fighting an uphill battle against societal expectations and/or larger portions of their own group who don’t recognize it as an issue. I’m sure you know that doesn’t make it any less valid.
Isn’t this essentially victim blaming and overlooks the very real societal issues and trama that hinders men getting support? You know funding, not being believed by both sexes, lack of awareness, society just not generally caring about men, etc
No. Women for a very long time were not considered fully realized humans in a legal sense. Hell, women couldn’t have bank accounts separate from their husbands until the 1970s.
My point is that women were victims and not even fully recognized legal entities and they STILL decided they wanted to help themselves; they organized themselves; and made progress on women’s issues.
If “society” doesn’t believe men or care about men, well, who is it with those negative attitudes? Society is about 50% women and 50% men. Seems to me a lot of men are not believing men as well as any women not believing men, given the current landscape. You belong to one of those groups. As a member of your class, you can be energized to make change.
No one is going to be an advocate for you (or your class) as much as you yourself. That’s not victim blaming, that is telling you how to actualize change in the world.
My argument wasn’t against advocacy. I was essentially saying that this isn’t a problem that is only solved by men. It’s a societal issue that men and women have to come together on. Especially since domestic violence on men is often different compared to women
Maybe I’m just being overly sensitive but I find the wording of your original post is more detrimental. Men have to do something if they want help! No we all have to do something.
Women care. I care about this poor man’s story (edit: and women’s groups helped out OP to find a group that he could join). But we have our hands full with our own issues. And partnering with good men is part of the success of women’s efforts to help themselves.
It will be the same way for men’s issues, but men need to pick up that torch and lead. Women will help but men need to drive. For example, men’s DV shelter services could probably most easily be added by partnering with a women’s DV shelter so that there is men’s aid in place (though less likely to be needed, depending on location and population density) so it may look a bit different. Men could reach out and drive the development of a partnership program.
I think a fundamental difference to the way that men (as a class) and women (as a class) think about these issues is that men expect men and women to care; but women expect nothing from men. This seems to be a driver for our differences in opinion/perspective.
It is your issue. Your brother, cousin, friend, someone you care about could be going through the same thing. Imagine if this line of thinking was applied to women’s sufferage?
That makes no sense. Without gaining support from the other side you get no resolution. Especially when the other Side is literally your abuser. I don’t expect shit from white ppl and that’s literally the problem. WE NEED THEM TO CARE. Society doesn’t change unless everyone cares about the issue at hand. In no shape or form does systemic racism end without white ppl
I understand what your saying but the overall comment shows the real problem. We are harsher and less caring about the issue in general. Imagine any of this rhetoric was used for issues like black women and their sky high mortality rate during childbirth, lack of attention towards Asian hate crimes, ignoring of natives women murders, or police brutality towards black men. That we have other things to deal with so it’s all on them to fix it. That if things aren’t being changed that’s its their own fault.
Historically speaking, it is.
I think ideally, waiting around for The Correct Group to fix a known problem is insane and pointless as fuck. And you’re right, both on paper and with a morality any non-sociopathic 2nd grader should be able to manage.
I also think there’s a substantial bitterness among women that does deserve to be there. We’ve been left to fix every problem we have more or less by ourselves, and had to pay dearly for every inch of it. I say, as we visibly stand here losing ground again.
Women weren’t allowed to vote? Couldn’t serve in the army? Hold jobs? We protested til we could.
We had no public bathrooms, forcibly leasing us to a set vicinity from our own home? We made two associations about it, men destroyed a model bathroom by driving a cab through it, and the idea only finally took hold because of cholera.
Couldn’t divorce? We murdered abusive husbands we couldn’t escape and continued lobbying. Same with controlling our own money.
Couldn’t wear pants? We wore them anyway, often in the face of sustained verbal and physical abuse, until men just got used to us wearing different clothing.
Every women’s scholarship was left behind by a woman who didn’t get a scholarship, found success anyway, and left a ladder for others who needed it. Men aren’t doing this nearly as often for reasons I don’t understand.
The first battered women’s shelters in Japan? Started by women. Australia, Germany, Italy? The UK and the US? All women. The first in the US was a random storefront with an apartment in the back that a handful of women repurposed. It was initially run entirely on donations they got from selling crafts. The police didn’t appreciate it and rarely if ever lifted a hand except to show a dangerous amount of indifference to threats.
On its face, it’s venomous to see a problem and tell someone to just deal with it themselves. In reality, we have done all of this ourselves, always with significant pushback.
This is where we are when the other half of the planet swears up and down they can’t do exactly the thing that we did. Yes, you can. If you need shelters, so did we and we opened them. We were forced to stand up for ourselves if we wanted anything fixed, and we did so.
Now, whenever this comes up, men want us to fix their problems for them too. Especially egregious since a lot of times, they’re the ones society takes at all seriously. They’re the ones with the funding, not that that was ever a valid excuse for us. We can barely get y’all to treat us like fellow humans if we stick y’all in prison for it and even that isn’t helping, but your work is still being laid at our feet.
Every time we so much as suggest men compliment and support each other, they snap straight to whining and explaining it would really feel better if it came from women and what if someone thinks they’re gay. THEN BE GAY.
I don’t think I can begin to describe how frustrating that is, and the kind of bitter anger that it breeds. Nothing is stopping you.
I’ll admit, as dismissive as it looks, part of me was reading the head comment and going, “so why don’t you just…start a group? There’s clearly a niche, surely they aren’t the only one in that entire state going through this.”
We care. Sometimes brutally. It’s not like we can’t relate to what that’s like, you know? But you’re not, as a class, less capable than we were. It isn’t whether we morally should, it’s the constant allegation that men’s problems MUST belong to us and no one else. Along with also our problems, also usually courtesy of the same men.
This was never the kind of thread to be writing shit like this. Certainly not suicide, I have a military buddy who’s the last one standing out of his entire squad, that all committed suicide, and he won’t goddamn go to therapy.
But the experience, as always, of begging men to do anything at all to fix any issue they are having is. Maddening.
Well considering you’re leaving out the various groups of men and women of color who are collectively fixing/fixed their joint problems, including the Black Panther party, NFWA, NAACP, CORE, AAPA etc. This notion that men are incapable of fixing their own problems with women having to do everything is insulting and just flat out wrong. And let’s not ignore that in America the women’s rights pursuit has always been fragmented with women of color (particularly black women) being left to fend for themselves. Sorjourner Truth had a bit to say about this. So let’s not act like women were this collective united force in America.
And there it is. This speaks volumes. That somehow men’s issues are less than because of general accepted bitterness. That since you had to struggle you feel that you are morally absolved of helping (not doing all the work) and I’ve yet to see any joint societal problem affecting both sexes that was solved 100% by a single sex.
So that somehow negates the fact that it’d be nice if 50% of society also chipped in to help? And since where using anecdotal. It’d be nice for women to actually know that men are so starved for any kind of positive reinforcement from the opposite sex.
BECAUSE THEY DO BELONG TO YOU. An injustice against anyone is an injustice against everyone. Do you think domestic violence against women didn’t negatively affect men? Doing nothing until it’s your problem is what leds to nazis. Empathy and sympathy is so important and it’s needed for any and all change.
The more i debate the more the argument devolve into, “fuck you got mine”. We figured it out on our own (even though you really didn’t) and that literally asking 50% of the population not to do all the work but to simply help a very fragile and hurt group of ppl. And the most ironic part is the constant argument that MEN DON’T ASK FOR HELP. But when we do, “fuck you got mine”
I love you. What an excellent comment.
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I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in 2017 and it’s shit.
The pain that comes with that is just phenomenal and there’s no good treatment for it either. :(
I’m in a good place now, but I take a lot of meds (some of which are literal poison) and a very expensive infusion. I have excellent insurance, but six years to get back to being able to move has been fun.
I hope you have great holidays this year and better things to come next one.
I hope you’re doing better physically and mentally kind sir. Thanks for sharing your story.