Depends on how much they cost. Since hydrogen energy storage means throwing away 2/3 of the energy you generate, it’s not a viable option unless it’s massively cheaper or batteries just can’t do the job at all.
Hydrogen has to be stored at cryogenic temperatures and high pressures to reach any sort of capacity. Desnsity wise your not going to beat cubic kilometers of water halfway up a mountain in cost per kw, even before factoring in the far higher power losses that come with synthesizing or domposing hydrogen.
Yes, that’s the point. The problem of batteries is that you need to mine a vast amount of raw materials for them. So it doesn’t even matter how much “better” they are. It is simply not an answer no matter what.
Up until the mid '90s, that gas supply was provided through a state government agency called the Gas & Fuel Corporation. As with many things in Victoria, it was privatised in the mid 1990s by former premier Jeff Kennett.
“Electrification of the current energy system will be next to impossible if the source is to be
renewable wind, solar and hydro. Natural gas/hydrogen will play a huge role in helping Australia pivot into systems that reduce emissions.”
“In the medium-term, gas providers will begin offering blended gas products. Gas blending
helps to reduce the emissions associated with gas use by blending biomethane, renewable
DME and hydrogen into gas tanks and pipeline systems as part of a long-term effort to reduce
the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission intensity of producing and consuming gas.”
So the oil and gas industry is pushing biomethane and hydrogen as the solution to replace methane (“natural”) gas.
Most household appliances (ovens, stovetops, hot water systems, heaters, etc) aren’t compatible with hydrogen. Pipes will need to be retrofitted too.
Or they can be replaced with electric appliances, which can be powered from the grid by renewables and battery storage.
Either way, it’s a big retrofit.
FWIW, green hydrogen (as opposed to grey hydrogen from methane, or brown hydrogen from coal) does have its uses in some applications. But it’s not needed for home appliances.
And, going back to the original article, grey hydrogen for buses is not the best way forward for decarbonising transport.
@zurohki @Hypx Given the ability to build pretty large hydrogen or ammonia tanks, would it scale better than dams or chemistry for week-plus durations?
Depends on how much they cost. Since hydrogen energy storage means throwing away 2/3 of the energy you generate, it’s not a viable option unless it’s massively cheaper or batteries just can’t do the job at all.
Hydrogen has to be stored at cryogenic temperatures and high pressures to reach any sort of capacity. Desnsity wise your not going to beat cubic kilometers of water halfway up a mountain in cost per kw, even before factoring in the far higher power losses that come with synthesizing or domposing hydrogen.
Yes, that’s the point. The problem of batteries is that you need to mine a vast amount of raw materials for them. So it doesn’t even matter how much “better” they are. It is simply not an answer no matter what.
@Hypx @Baku @AllNewTypeFace @WaterWaiver @ajsadauskas @zurohki A lot to be said for low capex / high opex in some of these cases.
@abartlet @Hypx @Baku @AllNewTypeFace @WaterWaiver @zurohki In the context of Melbourne, around 2 million Victorian households currently use methane (“natural”) gas appliances: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/renters-low-income-households-left-behind-in-race-to-turn-off-gas-20230724-p5dquv.html
Last year, the Victorian state government mandated that new homes and buildings are fully electrified: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/gas-connection-to-be-banned-from-new-homes-in-victoria-20230728-p5dryd.html
Here’s the state government’s media release: https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-victorian-homes-go-all-electric-2024
Up until the mid '90s, that gas supply was provided through a state government agency called the Gas & Fuel Corporation. As with many things in Victoria, it was privatised in the mid 1990s by former premier Jeff Kennett.
Here’s all the consultation papers: https://engage.vic.gov.au/help-us-build-victorias-gas-substitution-roadmap
Not surprisingly, the gas industry came out heavily against a mandate to ban the installation of new gas appliances.
This from the Australian Gas Association submission: https://engage.vic.gov.au/download/document/17468
“Electrification of the current energy system will be next to impossible if the source is to be
renewable wind, solar and hydro. Natural gas/hydrogen will play a huge role in helping Australia pivot into systems that reduce emissions.”
From the gas energy association: https://engage.vic.gov.au/download/document/17516
“In the medium-term, gas providers will begin offering blended gas products. Gas blending
helps to reduce the emissions associated with gas use by blending biomethane, renewable
DME and hydrogen into gas tanks and pipeline systems as part of a long-term effort to reduce
the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission intensity of producing and consuming gas.”
So the oil and gas industry is pushing biomethane and hydrogen as the solution to replace methane (“natural”) gas.
Most household appliances (ovens, stovetops, hot water systems, heaters, etc) aren’t compatible with hydrogen. Pipes will need to be retrofitted too.
Or they can be replaced with electric appliances, which can be powered from the grid by renewables and battery storage.
Either way, it’s a big retrofit.
FWIW, green hydrogen (as opposed to grey hydrogen from methane, or brown hydrogen from coal) does have its uses in some applications. But it’s not needed for home appliances.
And, going back to the original article, grey hydrogen for buses is not the best way forward for decarbonising transport.