You’re saying gender is a social construct. People who are transgender say they are born with their gender. Being born with something is incompatible with it being a social construct. Since you don’t see a tension here, are you saying gender is a social construct for everyone except transgender folk? In other words, do you think transgender people are the only ones born with their gender? That seems like an odd view to me.
The feelings/emotions/sensations are legit and are a complex mix of nature and nurture that you can’t really change voluntarily. They exist in the body and mind.
The grouping of those feelings into a rather large container-terms that also includes social roles, looks, expressions and a host of other stuff IS a social construct.
Like, a gemstone can be red, triangular and opaque, and those are objective properties. But calling it pretty is a social thing. The big difference is that “this is red” is a whole lot simpler to put into words than anything gender related.
I basically agree with you except for one caveat. I would call the “grouping” that you describe as gender expression. Whether men where kilts or pants is mostly based on societal expectation. But the unchanging gender identity is not a social construct (in my view).
That said, I raise the question because I am open to having my views changed. They’ve certainly changed in the past.
This response is initially persuasive but the line of reasoning doesn’t hold in other cases. For example, let’s replace gender with sexuality:
No one could possibly know they were “born” with a sexual preference.
By the time they’re old enough to have memories and conscious thought, they have already been socialized.
Now, we all agree that sexual preference is something you’re born with. Analogously, if we reject the idea that lack of knowledge of innate sexual preference implies sexuality is a social construct, then we should reject the argument that lack of knowledge of gender identity implies gender is a social construct.
1.We don’t “all agree” we’re born with specific sexual preferences. That’s not objective fact, it’s a hypothesis that can’t really be proven.
I’m Bi and don’t inherently know I was born this way. I have tons of personality and character traits that are impossible to assign to nature vs nurture, including sexual orientation.
2.Gender tropes change between cultures a ton, with various expectations and preferences. Differences in sex doesn’t just change by region like gender-tropes, humans are humans. Hence sexual preference based on sex and physical bodies is arguably more immutable
I was talking about being born with one or the other, but intersex people exist which is what I was trying to include. I do see how it was a bit unclear however.
Sex, we are born with (well most of us). Gender, social construct.
But people who are transgender say they are born with their gender. And I’m inclined to believe them given their testimony.
I don’t see how that contradicts my statement.
You’re saying gender is a social construct. People who are transgender say they are born with their gender. Being born with something is incompatible with it being a social construct. Since you don’t see a tension here, are you saying gender is a social construct for everyone except transgender folk? In other words, do you think transgender people are the only ones born with their gender? That seems like an odd view to me.
The feelings/emotions/sensations are legit and are a complex mix of nature and nurture that you can’t really change voluntarily. They exist in the body and mind.
The grouping of those feelings into a rather large container-terms that also includes social roles, looks, expressions and a host of other stuff IS a social construct.
Like, a gemstone can be red, triangular and opaque, and those are objective properties. But calling it pretty is a social thing. The big difference is that “this is red” is a whole lot simpler to put into words than anything gender related.
I basically agree with you except for one caveat. I would call the “grouping” that you describe as gender expression. Whether men where kilts or pants is mostly based on societal expectation. But the unchanging gender identity is not a social construct (in my view).
That said, I raise the question because I am open to having my views changed. They’ve certainly changed in the past.
No one could possibly know they were “born” with a gender.
By the time they’re old enough to have memories and concious thought, they have already been socialized.
This response is initially persuasive but the line of reasoning doesn’t hold in other cases. For example, let’s replace gender with sexuality:
Now, we all agree that sexual preference is something you’re born with. Analogously, if we reject the idea that lack of knowledge of innate sexual preference implies sexuality is a social construct, then we should reject the argument that lack of knowledge of gender identity implies gender is a social construct.
I’d make a couple points against that
1.We don’t “all agree” we’re born with specific sexual preferences. That’s not objective fact, it’s a hypothesis that can’t really be proven.
I’m Bi and don’t inherently know I was born this way. I have tons of personality and character traits that are impossible to assign to nature vs nurture, including sexual orientation.
2.Gender tropes change between cultures a ton, with various expectations and preferences. Differences in sex doesn’t just change by region like gender-tropes, humans are humans. Hence sexual preference based on sex and physical bodies is arguably more immutable
Most of us? Are there actual cases where a viable off spring had no x or y?
I was talking about being born with one or the other, but intersex people exist which is what I was trying to include. I do see how it was a bit unclear however.
Sex is also a social construct. Its separate from gender though.