I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive…but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
The one that isn’t taking away trans rights, making abortion illegal, and saying the last election was stolen, seems like the lesser evil actually.
I can agree that I think our parties would be slightly better if first past the post was changed to allow for multiple parties, but i think it’s ridiculous to say both parties are currently the same.
Edit: As I responded to thecrotch, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance of US politics or disinformation given the examples that I gave.
Democrats aren’t getting people killed, Republicans are by not allowing women to get medically necessary abortions.
To people over seas, seeinh one group deny the existence of covid, make abortions illegal, and passing laws restricting lgbt+ peoples rights is obviously the evil one.
I’m sure that the people in Syria who are being bombed and the people in Palestine who are being bombed by Israel using US dollars really care about our domestic politics as they watch their families get blown to shreds.
Idk what you thought you read, but someone said “Democrats aren’t evil” and I said “yes they are and here are a few examples of them being evil” and that’s actually a pretty simple argument and I’m still not sure what your point is
You’re right, what I should have also added to my post was that, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance or disinformation for the examples that I gave.
Democrats voted for Afghanistan, Iraq, the Patriot act, and countless other evil legislation. They’re absolutely evil. So they’re less evil than the Republicans, so what? Should I give them a cookie?
My state is reliably going to be won by the same party no matter what I do, and that party is going to get 100% of our electoral votes no matter what I do. So I vote third party, because if they can get 20% of the popular vote they get to be in the debates next time around. Living in a locked down state, it’s the only way my vote can possibly have a chance of making any difference.
You’re like 20 years behind, catch up.
Give them a cookie? Give them your vote. The alternative is republicans who RIGHT NOW, IN THIS YEAR are attempting to restrict abortions, deny the elections, restrict lgbt+ rights.
Democrats are fighting against that.
But yeah you’re right maybe split you’re vote because both sides “are the same”.
He’s absolutely wrong. A lot of the same reps who voted for the evil shit I mentioned 20 years ago are still around. Democrats sponsor and vote for evil shit to this day. How many times has the Patriot act been extended? The RESTRICT act was bipartisan. The fact that they wear a pride flag while doing it doesn’t absolve them.
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
My thing is, why are some people here just finally throwing away their votes?
Like I knew from a very young age that this country doesn’t care and will enthusiastically turn it’s back on you if your hardship is an inconvenience to capital in any way, look how they treat the ndns.
And if anything there is money to be made off our suffering.
This is why colonization anywhere is colonization everywhere. From the river to the fucking sea, Palestine WILL BE FREE
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck’s sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn’t.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people’s movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you’ll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal.
I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we’d have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.
To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don’t care about facts. You’re just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic™ aesthetics
Both are fascist, the only difference is where the fascism is pointed. That’s why you’ll see a lot of fake leftists support Biden, because they don’t care about the world all they care about are themselves.
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
Of course! I’m just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn’t be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn’t give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that’s the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.
I do not think its “both are Republicans”, but both are centre-right neoliberal capitalist parties. I like to call them two wings of US Nazi Eagle.
Neoliberals have a very basic set of beliefs, like “rich=successful”, “leech and ignore the poor”, “capitalise on anything possible”, “be a both sides weasel” and so on.
Calling out libshit isn’t spewing hate and vitriol, thin-skinned cracker. If you want to be passively fascist without any pushback, go back to reddit. Or better yet, take this as an opportunity to grow as a person and realize that your world view is not only unpopular, it’s also evil.
You don’t get to suppress ideas that threaten your ego, that’s not how things work here.
Oh no! I mean poopoo libs for those that can’t handle a little reality on neoliberalism.
Ps. I’m not name calling. I’m making a point. BrooklynDad and Charlotte Clymer are examples of DNC shitlib’s from Twitter that did the exact same two party guilt trip.
Your neoliberalism brings to Lemmy the worst toxicity from Twitter. Hold your head in shame.
I had missed being gaslighted by mature adults that also just so happened to be on the Progressive Policy Institute’s astroturfing payroll about being a horrible piece of shit if I didn’t hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils that screw their constituents in exactly the same way as the “bad guys” but do it with a smile. Go tell David Brock to transfer you to a new department.
Did you forget that I can see your comment history? I’m going to do the right thing and block you once you read this. Please try to keep in mind that you are a supposed leftist who likes to shame other leftists who aren’t willing to compromise like you are. If you consider me toxic for pointing that out, maybe go touch some grass and sign off for a while.
You can instantly spot the pro-fascist pro-Russia tankies by this single word. And the comments just ooze peak toxicity while trying to act like some moral authority. They literally can’t help themselves but call names because I’m pretty sure 99% of them are actually children
If you care about nuance, I’m a libertarian socialist/anarcho syndicalist (Chomsky-ite) who thinks that democratic socialism MIGHT POSSIBLY lead to a more just society than the corruption extravaganza that we have. Sue me if I don’t fit the tech bro libertarian Jordan Peterson fanboi or fake leftist IT guy archetype that comprises the rest of the Lemmy population.
I can’t believe how many shitlibs there are in here, using this opportunity to guilt people with an actual conscience into voting for this piece of shit as if he has some sort of moral high ground.
What is the lesser evil when both the DNC and the GOP work directly for the exact same military industrial complex?
The real villain here is the system that makes any party outside of the two party system completely irrelevant: first-past-the-post.
We have two Republican parties. One of them just so happens to pretend better at being inclusive…but they secretly also wish that the poor could be burned to fuel their mega-yachts.
The one that isn’t taking away trans rights, making abortion illegal, and saying the last election was stolen, seems like the lesser evil actually. I can agree that I think our parties would be slightly better if first past the post was changed to allow for multiple parties, but i think it’s ridiculous to say both parties are currently the same. Edit: As I responded to thecrotch, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance of US politics or disinformation given the examples that I gave.
Not to people overseas. There’s no difference between being indiscriminately murdered by a Republican or a Democrat to the people dying.
Democrats aren’t getting people killed, Republicans are by not allowing women to get medically necessary abortions. To people over seas, seeinh one group deny the existence of covid, make abortions illegal, and passing laws restricting lgbt+ peoples rights is obviously the evil one.
I’m sure that the people in Syria who are being bombed and the people in Palestine who are being bombed by Israel using US dollars really care about our domestic politics as they watch their families get blown to shreds.
What do you think starting wars in the middle east does? Or do you not consider those people to be human.
They don’t have to be the same to both suck. The lesser evil is, by definition, evil.
But less evil.
Also by definition.
Who the fuck wants more evil?
Fine, vote your conscience. I was replying to a guy who said Democrats aren’t evil. That guy is wrong. Less evil doesn’t mean not evil.
And your argument is that someone already called them evil.
My argument is that they are evil. I made that argument to someone who said that they are not evil. Do you have a point?
Restating the conclusion is not what constitutes an argument.
Idk what you thought you read, but someone said “Democrats aren’t evil” and I said “yes they are and here are a few examples of them being evil” and that’s actually a pretty simple argument and I’m still not sure what your point is
You’re right, what I should have also added to my post was that, I disagree with the assertion that the Dem party is evil. Flawed? sure, our 2 party system will only allow for flawed parties, but to say their evil is downright showing ignorance or disinformation for the examples that I gave.
Democrats voted for Afghanistan, Iraq, the Patriot act, and countless other evil legislation. They’re absolutely evil. So they’re less evil than the Republicans, so what? Should I give them a cookie?
No, but you should still vote for them. What else can you do? Vote independent? Change the world?
My state is reliably going to be won by the same party no matter what I do, and that party is going to get 100% of our electoral votes no matter what I do. So I vote third party, because if they can get 20% of the popular vote they get to be in the debates next time around. Living in a locked down state, it’s the only way my vote can possibly have a chance of making any difference.
You’re like 20 years behind, catch up. Give them a cookie? Give them your vote. The alternative is republicans who RIGHT NOW, IN THIS YEAR are attempting to restrict abortions, deny the elections, restrict lgbt+ rights. Democrats are fighting against that. But yeah you’re right maybe split you’re vote because both sides “are the same”.
I didn’t say they’re the same. They don’t have to be the same to both suck. Fuck you for telling me how to vote. You got a lot of nerve.
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He’s absolutely wrong. A lot of the same reps who voted for the evil shit I mentioned 20 years ago are still around. Democrats sponsor and vote for evil shit to this day. How many times has the Patriot act been extended? The RESTRICT act was bipartisan. The fact that they wear a pride flag while doing it doesn’t absolve them.
i can’t see any of them, which means a lot of them must have been banned already from hexbear lol lmao
Maybe I should switch to hexbear. I feel like I’m on 2016 Twitter, arguing with Neera Tanden’s astroturfing PPI team and they’re trying to brainwash other leftists to think that Single Payer is somehow bad.
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8 out of a total of 165 comments remain.
Went and checked the lemmy.ml version of the thread, and they sure weren’t lying about the shitlibs.
Glory to the moderators
No, we have Eisenhower Republicans, and Nazis.
I’ll grant you that.
Fascists. Not all fascists are Nazis, but all Nazis are faschists. They’re like squares and rectangles.
My thing is, why are some people here just finally throwing away their votes?
Like I knew from a very young age that this country doesn’t care and will enthusiastically turn it’s back on you if your hardship is an inconvenience to capital in any way, look how they treat the ndns.
And if anything there is money to be made off our suffering.
This is why colonization anywhere is colonization everywhere. From the river to the fucking sea, Palestine WILL BE FREE
This is nonsense. MAGA is a fascist movement. Don’t let both being neo-liberal blind you.
And yet the United States continues to slide into fascism despite having elected Biden. What horrific Trump era policies did the Democrats even bother to repeal after they won in 2020 and held both the senate and the house?
They are still funding the construction of border wall segments. They never repealed the Republican tax cuts. They have done nothing about the concentration camps on the southern border for fuck’s sake. They never codified Roe v. Wade, we literally lost the right to abortions while Biden was in office. They could have stacked the supreme court but they didn’t.
The Democrats and the Republicans form an obfuscated one party system in the US. Republican leadership aggressively ramps up the oppression of marginalized people, then Democratic leadership does nothing to restore our rights nor proactively prevent the same thing from happening again. Instead they just use their time in office to suck all of the energy out of people’s movements that could actually effect change.
And much more importantly than all of that, Republicans and Democrats are virtually identically evil when it comes to foreign policy. When the US is dropping bombs on you and destroying your country, you’ll tend not to care whether it was a Red MAGA or Blue MAGA administration pulling the trigger.
In some specific cases it might be worthwhile to vote for Democrats in local elections where there exists much more leeway for politicians to stray from the party line, but voting for them in national elections is just lending your voice to legitimizing their bullshit good cop/bad cop routine they play with the Republicans.
Hear hear!!! My sentiments exactly! Thanks for putting it into words better than I could have.
Yes, that is a feature of democratic systems. Parties want to get voted in. So they bend their programs to achieve that goal. I live in Germany and here all parties are leaning further and further to the right, since the AfD (nationalist-conservative, some party members Neo-nazi) party is gaining in almost every poll.
If all that was at play here was mere democracy, we’d have an M4A candidate. The population is solidly to the left of either party on the majority of issues, but they get no voice because liberal democracy is an exercise in choosing between the options that capitalists have picked for you.
Your bubble is.
This is much less snappy than it is grammatically ambiguous.
Let me rephrase: “Your echochamber is”
Could I interest you in adding a direct object to the sentence?
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To me, it sounds a whole lot like both Biden AND Trump can be considered fascists….especially with this idea of secret military aid to Israel that I’m reacting to here.
Looking at it from an economic definition perspective though Biden represents the financial bourgeoisie and Trump represents more industrial bourgeoisie
I’d actually argue that Trump comes from the real estate bourgeoisie but I agree on the Biden characterization. Biden never saw an MBNA donor contribution that he didn’t love (like in 2008 when he sold all future generations out for a $250,000 payout from MBNA).
I just don’t see how real estate wealth translates to industry. In general, many of Trump’s areas don’t fully align with the Republican establishment who, in my observation, generally are from real estate, energy, and industry as you mentioned.
Thinking about it more, it seems like real estate has a lot of overlap in both parties.
Trump obviously comes from real estate, but his current money-making on a direct level is decidedly media-driven. The question is who gives him money and who benefits from his policy, and I think the answer is that he has a relatively larger amount of support from the petite bourgeois.
Yeah that’s true. They found a cash cow in him, though I’d still consider him an outsider (especially after his political capital has been used up).
High fixed capital
Neoliberalism is exactly the economic policies of fascism. Just because they have “civility” aesthetics doesn’t change that
This is your feeling, no fact.
It is a fact that the economic policies of Nazi Germany were mass privatization and public-private partnerships, both of which are the hallmarks of neoliberal policy. Your denial of this is factless. Not that it matters to you, because you don’t care about facts. You’re just an empty headed smuglord with Facts and Logic™ aesthetics
Both are fascist, the only difference is where the fascism is pointed. That’s why you’ll see a lot of fake leftists support Biden, because they don’t care about the world all they care about are themselves.
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Your definition of fascism is hilariously wrong
If they’re both equally evil internationally and mostly equally evil domestically, am I allowed to vote for who is less likely to remove more human rights from women and trans people?
I would never tell anyone that they should vote, I understand people’s reasons for not doing it. Selfishly, I’m going to give myself the best chance of having access to life saving health care until I’m no longer of child bearing age.
Of course! I’m just standing up to speak my mind. We all are allowed to vote exactly as we see fit. I live in MA where I have the opportunity to vote with my conscience, but in a place like AL, SC, or KY, my strategy wouldn’t be helpful to those groups of people.
The two party system makes democracy in the US an absolute sham.
In terms of federal representatives, that’s rather like a poor white German supporting the Strassers.
If Hitler had actually held an election and the only options were him or a Strasser party, I don’t think it would be immoral to vote for the Strassers. But I also don’t think it would be a moral obligation if you had no reason to believe they would stop the Holocaust.
A vote for Hindenburg was indeed a vote for Hitler, so I think the moral is that caping for a lesser evil instead of trying to build good (and those two things are normally opposed) is not a constructive behavior. I couldn’t give less of a shit who you personally vote for, that’s the consumer-lifestyle version of political engagement. I do care somewhat what you advocate for, because promoting the lesser evil is still promoting evil over good (using the overly moralistic phrasing of the adage).
Withholding support from Nazis (on any substantial level) is plainly the better option if you want to not need to keep choosing between two Nazis.
The 1932 election had a communist option, it’s unlikely that there will be one on my ballot.
We’re not going to overthrow fascism in America at the voting booth. I’m not trying to convince anyone to vote for Biden, that’s his job and he’s not doing it very well. I’m also not going to shame anyone for doing something easy like voting in the hopes that it makes them a tiny bit safer.
I would shame someone if they thought that voting democrat is a step towards bringing about positive change or parroted some bullshit about how we can get more concessions from Democrats than Republicans. If voting is the extent of your political engagement, you aren’t opposing fascism.
How so? Hindenburg was Hitler’s biggest political adversary and refused to pronounce Hitler chancellor until 2 consecutive elections failed.
If you can have that plus corrupt democracy in America or that plus outright fascism in America, I’m not seeing how the choice is difficult.
It’s a bipolar world buddy and your mind and body is sport for the hunters lol
I do not think its “both are Republicans”, but both are centre-right neoliberal capitalist parties. I like to call them two wings of US Nazi Eagle.
Neoliberals have a very basic set of beliefs, like “rich=successful”, “leech and ignore the poor”, “capitalise on anything possible”, “be a both sides weasel” and so on.
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So called “free speech” liberals when someone is mean to them.
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Calling out libshit isn’t spewing hate and vitriol, thin-skinned cracker. If you want to be passively fascist without any pushback, go back to reddit. Or better yet, take this as an opportunity to grow as a person and realize that your world view is not only unpopular, it’s also evil.
You don’t get to suppress ideas that threaten your ego, that’s not how things work here.
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I’ll give you a month before you’re back to normal. Everyone takes time to detox from that shitty website.
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Ah that would explain it. Yeah, mastodon is really bad for that. IDK why there’s so many liberal fascists on that site but it’s seriously rampant.
Oh no! I mean poopoo libs for those that can’t handle a little reality on neoliberalism. Ps. I’m not name calling. I’m making a point. BrooklynDad and Charlotte Clymer are examples of DNC shitlib’s from Twitter that did the exact same two party guilt trip.
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Your neoliberalism brings to Lemmy the worst toxicity from Twitter. Hold your head in shame.
I had missed being gaslighted by mature adults that also just so happened to be on the Progressive Policy Institute’s astroturfing payroll about being a horrible piece of shit if I didn’t hold my nose and vote for the lesser of two evils that screw their constituents in exactly the same way as the “bad guys” but do it with a smile. Go tell David Brock to transfer you to a new department.
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Did you forget that I can see your comment history? I’m going to do the right thing and block you once you read this. Please try to keep in mind that you are a supposed leftist who likes to shame other leftists who aren’t willing to compromise like you are. If you consider me toxic for pointing that out, maybe go touch some grass and sign off for a while.
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Doesn’t it feel weird when someone tells you how they think you should act!?!?!? 🤣
You can instantly spot the pro-fascist pro-Russia tankies by this single word. And the comments just ooze peak toxicity while trying to act like some moral authority. They literally can’t help themselves but call names because I’m pretty sure 99% of them are actually children
I’m a tankie!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If you care about nuance, I’m a libertarian socialist/anarcho syndicalist (Chomsky-ite) who thinks that democratic socialism MIGHT POSSIBLY lead to a more just society than the corruption extravaganza that we have. Sue me if I don’t fit the tech bro libertarian Jordan Peterson fanboi or fake leftist IT guy archetype that comprises the rest of the Lemmy population.
Nuance nonces on their way to defend nazi war criminals.
Sorry, it’s the rules. I have to post that everyone someone uses that word.