It’s dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners’ property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany’s right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
So you’re in law school then, explains a lot. We aren’t discussing Statutes though so I’m sorry but this is meaningless drivel pulled from your educational background to win an argument where you deny the origin of a genocide. You referred to a “commonsense” liberal understanding of the word “isntreal”, not its statutory definition in the american legal system you stupid libshit.
LMFAOOOOO holy fucking shit you’re actually trying to speak legalese in this discussion, bloody hilarious.
I’m not sure whether they taught you this in law school but Isntreal was created by the west to be a settler colonial puppet state to assert power in the region and enact a manifest destiny type genocide against Palestinians. It isn’t that it was innocently created and then somehow turned evil, its very nature, an “original sin” if you like, is to be a racist project of mass murder. To place it on Palestinian land without consent of the indigenous population such that it could steal land and expand was indeed a genocidal act. Its existence necessitates stolen land and therefore is fundamentally genocidal.
You’re a funny man son, I hope you dont become a corrupt lawyer in the future.
Nope!
We are not discussing statues, but as I pointed out, such notions aren’t limited to statutory interpretation, as seen by the cooperative principle of communications advice on the avoidance of ambiguity. If you’re not saying things with a goal toward being understood, that’s fine, feel free to flout that.
There’s no winning an argument. I’m trying to help you understand why your original comment was removed as an accidental call for ethnic cleansing. Obviously I’m failing at that goal but this isn’t some debate where I’m trying to score goals with some audience. This thread is a week old, no one else is here.
Sure, there is no academic consensus on the intension of state, but the concept is still used, and Israel is universally considered to be within the extension of the definiens state in the academic community, in the general public, and by 85% of the government in the UN.
The problem with Israeli is the act of mass murder and ethnic cleansing, not some ontological evil essence nonsense. Stop the mass murder, reverse the ethnic cleansing, and peacefully integrate into the local polity and woohoo, it’s party time. Pieds-noir were allowed to remain in Algeria, even if most of the opted not to., White’s in South Africa and Rhodesia, White Poles in Haiti, the list goes on.
Go and open an account on lesswrong then, you have such amazing potential to be among the greatest minds.
Least pretentious redditor. Its still an appeal to commonsense to insist on a liberal worldview as being the “unambiguous” way to understand Isntreal.
I don’t care why it was removed, I have already accepted that and moved on with my life, go mods.
What I don’t accept is that you keep insisting that its actually ethnic cleansing advocacy when it clearly isn’t.
…But not on hexbear.net where we all know that it isn’t real.
In terms of “the academic community and the general public” that really depends on which country you are referring to. Of course in the west the public recognizes isntreal as legitimate because of propaganda and brainwashing, like how everyone supports capitalism. However, I doubt the “academic community” and “general public” in Palestine recognize the validity of the cancer currently resting on their stolen lands. Fuck the UN in particular because they created this entire mess in the first place.
“Bro ackshualalflasflasflsaflly isntreal wasnt in fact created with the express purpose of being a genocidal settler state thats just ontological evil essence nonsense bro.”
The problem with isntreal is that it is a settler colonial project whose very creation and continued existence was/is contingent on mass murder and ethnic cleansing. They have literally no right to exist. Why do you fail to acknowledge this?
I’ve already reported some of the shit you said to our mods btw they will be here soon. If they don’t come then I will call our most terminally online users and dogpile your yudowsky-lite ass for Zionism apologia.
Then what are we talking about?
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you’re doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
Because ‘right to exist’ is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
You answered your own question.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn’t mean its reality.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn’t be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants “ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you”. Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to “stop”.
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how “Australia” was?
Haha, clearly.
I’ve extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don’t intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
No? That hasn’t gotten anything to do with pointing out that ‘right to exist’ and ‘actual existence’ are entirely separate concepts, with a ‘right to exist’ being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You’re doing this “Israel isn’t real bro it can’t hurt you” schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I’ve already demonstrated that you haven’t engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you’re a candidate for lesswrong’s membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn’t mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don’t care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
Me: They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians
You: Keep denying genocide then
We’re both tugging at selective threads of the conversation based on our goals for it, cause I’m still waiting on that census data of Gazan jews from you.
I didn’t ignore it, I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some ‘essence’ of Israel.
That’s not what bad faith means. That’s just being wrong.
I’ve probably said 15 times that Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide, and that such settler-colonialism and genocide even predated the establishment of the state of Israel.
You’re conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
Im not making any soy claims about the “essence” of Isntreal. The fucking material reality on the ground is that it could not have existed without a massive genocide. The very notion of “israel” necessitates land stolen and people removed from Palestine. Just like america and nazi germany before it. This is why it needs to be destroyed. Its a deeply unjust situation and im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is “metaphysical drivel”.
The individual was not operating in “bad faith” but the argument is a bad faith argument due to its dishonest presuppositions rooted in Zionist apologia.
Because they are a settler colonial project, not a proper nation. You don’t get it, the creation of Isntreal itself was an act of settler-colonialism and genocide.
As I said:
“Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn’t mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state that shouldnt immediately be militarily opposed by every country on the planet if they had a sense of justice. I don’t care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.”