I like this approach. “funny meme” aside, I think it is a good way of showing how much a certain language can affect how other people think and feel about a subject. Just read it THAT way and “being neurotypical” suddenly sounds like a disorder that isn’t fully compatible with the public, doesn’t it?
We live in a world that isn’t exactly kind to people on the spectrum. It is loud, flashy, hectic, overwhelming, unrewarding but you’re still expected to work like a cog in a machine, despite having fewer and fewer places where you’d actually “fit in” without grinding gears, and whenever there is some sort of public talk about that topic, it always, always sounds like the affected person is the problem and personally responsible for fixing themselves, when a no small part of “not fitting in” is due to society itself. Maybe a change in language is due to remove that stigma.
You read into phrases past their actual meanings
Instead of saying what you think, you expect others to infer it based on subjective social rules
I see these as legitimately bad things that people should not do. The fact that society considers this normal is horrible!
I think of it as a dialect difference. Allistic people aren’t “not saying what they think” they are saying exactly what they think. That combination of words just has a specific meaning to other Allistic people outside of their Webster definition. It’s gibberish/meaningless if you speak a different dialect though.
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I’m gonna be upfront with you, Im ND but Allistic. Your boss asking you to make a spreadsheet automatically told me he wanted you to make it look presentable because it was a work enviornment. The context of who was asking you and where made that clear to me, I understand that it wasn’t clear to you. But that’s what I mean by dialect.
I didnt get all the layout details that he might specifically want but if my boss asked me to make a spreadsheet comparing some numbers 9 out of 10 times I’ll have outlines and colors and I’ll hide messy cells. He wouldn’t have to tell me that and I’d bet most Allistic people would hear those instructions as well. In fact most Allistic people would probably be insulted by the level of specific instruction your asking for if they hadnt specifically requested it. So your boss may think he’s being polite and not realizing that he’s instead using poor communication. It may help to specifically tell him you want specific, detailed, instructions like that, otherwise he’s likely to resist giving that level of instruction for fear of insulting you.
I’m sorry that your boss hasn’t figured out that you need more specific guidance in those situations because that’s got to be frustrating and I hope that you and he can figure out a better mutual communication style.
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What my boss wanted was some very specific formatting that they didn’t tell me about until after I turned the spreadsheet in. I don’t understand how I was ever supposed to know those specific details beforehand.
So based on the info you just provided your example isn’t what I was referring to by differences in dialect. If your boss didn’t tell you the very specific formatting he wanted beforehand then there was no way for you to know and no Allistic person would have been able to figure that out either. Thats not a subtext dialect difference which is what I was talking about. An allistic person would be just as frustrated with that example and your boss is just a dick. No subtext was going to tell anyone the correct color hash that he wanted.
Such things can also be a domineering strategy.
because it was a work enviornment.
Infers to me practicality over presentability.
Unfortunately that is largely not how the corporate world works.
Which is why more hierarchies = more bullshit work.
I remember, once in a nice small company with flat hierarchy, the office guys did a survey for the works outing (sounds weird, “Betriebsausflug”); it was an excel sheet with not-working checkboxes sent via mail, you had to send it back. Now scale that up.
^ Prime example of speaking a different dialect, if not language.
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I would be willing to bet actual money that they did not mean those exact specific lines and colours, and instead provided them as direction for the type of organisation and presentation of the data they were expecting. They wanted it presented in a manner that made the comparison easier to digest at a glance, and not just a trivially assembled side by side list of plain numbers.
Think about the reason behind the request, and how it changes the situation for the person making it. Could they have gotten a dump of unformatted data themselves? If so then that’s almost certainly not what they’re asking for.
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You literally asked how a short instruction expands to include these seemingly expected additional formatting requirements. The answer is that it doesn’t expand to exactly these arbitrary requirements, but that a certain style or level of aesthetics was implied by being a work environment. Unless your boss is hard to work with and actually demands a specific date format and color coding. Most likely though, they want any form of color coding to distinguish different parts of the spreadsheet at a glance and a reasonable date format that is used in everyday life.
So all of your bullshit in this thread is just the result of you having a shitty boss and throwing a temper tantrum, then blaming all other neurotypicals for the behavior of one person? Jesus christ, I feel like that guy that was arguing with someone about food only to learn that person was a pissdrinker and their opinions were worthless.
This explains so much about you.
Someone was just bringing in an example of a situation that is difficult for them and which repeatedly upsets them. Remembering all that might make them present their upsettedness, which may be welcome for a deeper understanding and further processing toward clarity on both sides. No need to mirror that. :-)
edit: Maybe i should tell about this afterthought here; it’s a perspective that might be unknown to many here. I might still be off because of empathetic limits presented by the text-only medium, and I’m only a messenger who will be speaking an unknown language so don’t hit on me … :-)
Through the shamanic lens: This looks like an example of a “self-fulfilling prophecy”, in the way of calling in the presence of a spirit (spiritual entity) by telling the story of having encountered that entity before. So, @[email protected] in its essence told a story of how they repeatedly meet a spirit which seeks to take their energy by telling them they were doing things not as expected, with the implicate impression that something would be “wrong” with them not having understood some unspoken message, while CarlsIII was just doing things the way CarlsIII would find them fitting. Others probably have read the story and could relate to it or feel with it, thus amplifying the inadvertent call. … Lo and behold, exactly such a spirit shows up. All it takes is someone who is susceptible to it and ready to serve for a demonstration. Invocations like this are common. Maybe this can help build awareness.
If you think about it as a dialect the only way to learn it is like any other language that doesnt have a textbook: exposure with the native speakers.
I think the point OP was trying to make is that most likely people who know this dialect (i. E. Are used to working with your bess) have an idea of how he wants things.
In this case, the dialect would have a very small subset of speakers (only the people used to working with your boss).
I can see the logic in this argument, but I don’t think such a small subset of speakers qualifies as a dialect and I think your boss is just being difficult. Also I’m pretty sure this would have been an issue for many neurotypicals too, since the info wasnt communicated properly.
I think this is more an example of power play - your boss is in power and how dare you not know? It’s the same treatment we get from NTs everywhere. They are “in power” in the sense that they can expect most people to pick up on their code and don’t have to change. Your boss on the other hand just doesn’t care if you had a chance to understand and that’s why I think he’s just power trippy.
What people on the spectrum may not understand is that language is more than just the exchanging of raw information. It’s culture, it’s artistic, and it’s a way to communicate intangible feelings and emotions.
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You: “We actually do understand that”
You: proceeds to not understand that
Theres a difference between understanding the concept and understanding what the fuck your boss wants you to do when you have been given a conflicting set of orders and because of liability and politics you will never get an answer on how they want you to thread the line between the two
edit: and because you are autistic and your boss is not, how YOU would prioritize which rules to follow at the expense of ignoring the others is almost CERTAINLY going to be the wrong prioritization
Like other commenters, I also think that most neurodivergent people understand this very well. Their problem arises where they understand it even much further, like seeing the implications of such normalities. For example, that this must be one of the sources of so many misunderstandings between different cultures (and subcultures!). I can not just assume that everyone I meet speaks the same social language that I grew up in.
And is it not rude to assume that everyone’s mind works in the same way … or that others would camouflage in a die-cut way as someone they are not truely; is it not kind of intellectually flat to assume self-similarity, given that this is so obviously not the case – I mean divergent or not, everyone is just so engraved by their past experience that we have no true idea what mental process is going on inside another person unless we get to know them more closely.
e: or put in different words, what to do if the intangible feelings and emotions communicated by someone just don’t match their verbal message? Or worse, what to do when we cearly see someones cognitive dissonance but we are expected to somehow follow that (it’s an illness and following through would be self-denial)?
May read: The Double Empathy Problem;
more on affective vs. cognitive empathy: Lost in Translation: The Social Language Theory of Neurodivergence (part 1); (part 2)I think they understand that just fine.
“You read into phrases past their actual meanings” “Instead of saying what you think, you expect others to infer it based on subjective social rules”
The main issues is that you have to do that because other people will use double meanings no matter what. For exemple to double cross you regarding something. So you have to be able to read them.
Meanwhile there’s actually an other case when people use double meanings : when they can’t foster the courage to tell you something really important that would change everything, or to which you could react badly. Like that they are in love with you. In that case infered double meanings will allow the other person to react by sending similar double meanings to signify that they are on the same page, creating a much reassuring envirronment to finally confess their feelings.
Our species is insanely bad at finding partner. Like wildly bad.
That sounds as if a daltonic found it horrible that other people use and enjoy colours he cannot separate. I understand it makes your life harder, but you can’t tell people not to use something that is extremely usefull just because you can’t participate.
You’d rather everyone just immediately believed everything anyone else said without any thought into the motivation or intent behind the words?
You literally just did the thing I complained about.
Is there a best of Lemmy yet?
This was just 🤌🏼
I mean, it wasn’t, though. I didn’t actually do the thing they described, they just failed to understand their own point.
I mean, no, not really. What I said is still a part of what you proposed, just not specifically.
Like you can’t suggest that everyone should jump off a high cliff without also suggesting that everyone should fall to the bottom. You can’t say “I said jump, not fall! You’re reading into my words beyond my intent!”
Have you never encountered symbolism? Poetry? Is your favorite book “See Spot Run” because every statement is entirely literal with no interpretation needed?
If you read the phrase “Upon seeing the knife in the strangers hand, she let out a scream.” would you not infer that “she” is afraid of the knife person, or would you sit there scratching your head wondering “why did she scream? I don’t understand, knives can be used for many purposes.”
What I said is still a part of what you proposed, just not specifically.
Absolutely not. What you said had nothing to do with anything I said. I did not say we should “believe everything everyone says.” That’s not even a part of what I said.
You then proceeded to:
read into phrases past their actual meanings
The alternative to “reading into phrases past their actual meanings” is not to “believe everything everyone says.” It’s simply not assuming someone intended to say something completely different than what they actually said, which is what you did.
And the alternative to “expecting others to infer what you think based on subjective social rules” is to just say what you mean in the first place.
See the conflict we’re having right now? We could have avoided this if you simply didn’t read into what I said past the actual meaning.
Ah I see the confusion. You said “reading into phrases past their actual meanings” but defined that as “assuming someone intended to say something completely different than what they actually said.” This is not, in fact. “reading into phrases past their actual meanings” and is, in fact, called “assuming someone is lying”. With that cleared up, I agree with you. People should definitely stop assuming others are lying without a good reason.
This is not, in fact. “reading into phrases past their actual meanings” and is, in fact, called “assuming someone is lying”.
You just did it again!!
No, I didn’t! You have no idea what you’re even trying to say! I’m sorry but you’re just incorrect. At no point have I interpreted anything you’ve suggested to mean anything other than exactly that.
No.
When I someone asks if I want to eat at a particular restaurant and I say no, they frequently assume some kind of reason. For example, they might assume I didn’t want that type of food, or that I am not hungry, or something else. That is reading into it, not lying.
Most people wouldn’t just assume a random reason. They might assume there is a reason, and they would be correct even if that reason is “just dont feel like it”, which is a perfectly valid reason.
Furthermore, what you’re describing is not “reading into”, its “drawing likely inferences based on evidence and observation” and it’s literally the foundation of every piece of knowledge we currently possess.
What you’re objecting to is called “thinking”.
An example of what you’re trying to describe would be if person A said “I can’t hang out tonight, I’m busy” and the person B thinks “they’re just saying that to be nice, they actually hate me” when really person A is actually just busy. Person B is “reading into” person A’s response. Which ties back into my previous point about what you’re actually objecting to, which is people assuming someone is lying when there’s nothing to suggest dishonesty.
Dude. Just look at the dictionary mening of the words. That’s the actual meaning. If you want to say A, use words that mean A literally. Don’t say A and B and expect us to know that you actually mean C.
You know exactly what you’re doing because you proceed to complain about us wanting to not have poetry and metaphor.
No, there will always be people who lie and have bad intentions. This is something everyone needs to consider.
The problem is the honest people who aren’t clear about what their expectations are. Then they get upset when those expectations aren’t met. I don’t think people do it intentionally, language is hard.
Points 2 and 5 are waaaay off but the rest are pretty funny.
Point 2 is literally the definition of ND folk who get ankle deep in a new hobby then abandon it when their interest passes.
Point 5… I’d wager the vast majority of ND people blow at math. They also absolutely suck at seeing patterns you aren’t hyper focusing on lol. It’s literally baked into the diagnoses of ADHD comorbidities.
Is “blow” the opposite of “suck” or of similar meaning in this context?
Correct.
Wonderful, thank you ^^
“Your interests are shallow” → “You aren’t interested in things for their intrinsic use value, but for their exchange value in forming social bonds with other neurotypicals who have imprinted on the same token (TV show, political party, sports team, etc.) Talking about these interests is not primarily an exchange of information, but rather a grooming behaviour, like chimpanzees picking lice out of each other’s coats, only done with language “
Stop, stop! they’re already dead!
Lmao what a shit take.
Lmao what a shit take.
Great summary of every comment you’ve made in this thread.
Every time you avoid small talk you get a lovely sticker
Germans: I have so many stickers!
Finns: crushed by weight of stickers, nobody calling for help
I mean yeah if I described autism using a bunch of statements that absolutely do not define autism, then it would sound dumb and bad. OP is acting like this is a list of neurotypical behaviors when it’s actually just an inverted list of neurodivergent behaviors. Neurotypicality is not the reciprocal of neurodivergence.
It literally is though. How would you define “neurodivergence” if not “everything which is not neurotypical”?
“Divergent” does not equal “opposite”.
A turtle is different than a lizard, the two lineages “diverged” evolutionarily at some point. I could describe a lizard as a scaled, heterothermic, terrestrial organism. If I describe something as a scale-less, homeothermic, non-terrestrial organism, I’m not describing a turtle, I’m just describing a “non-lizard”. Don’t confuse “neurodivergent” with “anti-neurotypical”, they’re not the same thing.
By your logic, for a person to be considered “neurodivergent” they would have to be completely 100% unlike a neurotypical person in every single way, which is simply not the case.
You’re misreprenting what I’m saying.
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“Neurodivergent” = “not neurotypical”
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“Neurotypical” = “not neurodivergent”
They are antonyms. Note that I didn’t say “a neurodivergent person cannot exhibit neurotypical traits” because that isn’t true.
I understand what you’re saying perfectly well. What you’re saying is absolutely incorrect.
Neurodivergent =/= not neurotypical
Neurotypical =/= not neurodivergent
Each is defined by their own set of criteria and neither term is simply the antithesis of the other.
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By your logic, for a person to be considered “neurodivergent” they would have to be completely 100% unlike a neurotypical person in every single way, which is simply not the case.
By that reading, would neurodivergent people even be human?
My point exactly. According to the previous comment, no they wouldn’t. Which is why it’s wrong.
The point I was trying to make is that no one considers neurodivergen people not human. They may sometimes treat us that way, but that’s a different story.
Cvsting two things as opposites doesn’t necessarily mean they are complete and total opposites. You can, and that is a common rhetorical device, pick only some relevant properties of something to make a point.
Humans and animals often get seen as opposing. But they all breathe, they all have vital organs, a lot of the time the same ones. Definitely not total opposites according to you. Our genome is more than 60% identical to a banana (source: https://www.pfizer.com/news/articles/how_genetically_related_are_we_to_bananas), so according to your logic, we cant even oppose human ratio to plants. Btw, chickens and humans have about the same ration of shared genome as bananas and humans.
Your interpretation is way too rigid to ever be able to use the concept of opposite, because you can always find something in common. This is why I think your answer was flawed.
I don’t think you understand what’s being discussed here.
Right, but the reptile parts are implicit. The average neurotypical and neurodivergent person is human, they all talk and walk, have five fingers, a normal physique, etc.
So if I describe a turtle as an aquatic reptile with flippers and a shell, then terrestrial reptile with normal legs and not having a shell does kinda describe a lizard.
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I’m beginning to get the impression that people with autism reaaaally don’t like people witbout autism.
I’m married to one. They don’t dislike people without autism. They just don’t like the social norms and expectations that cause them harm.
This is a venting post. I don’t think anyone is interested in harming non autistic people.
Hey, I love neurotypicals, they’re great, hell one of my freinds younger brother has neurotypicalism and he’s such a quirky lil goofball but he can actually behave himself most of the time too, we get along really well.
👌
There may be a sore spot after centuries of dehumanizing abuse.
Tbh because I’ve had to adapt to a neurotyp society in my own way, different from how other autistic people have had to adapt in THEIR own ways, I actually get along better with Nuerotyps better than other Autists, and no, fuck changing my terminology I dont mean Autist in a derogatory sense
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wait the number pattern thing is autism? I’m sorry, I have ADHD and the ADHD doctor also told me I’m probably on the spectrum. wow I love number pattern stuff though, I didn’t know it was associated.
I got 81 as a table number the other day and I was stoked because it’s 3^4. on reflection the doctor was probably right.
ADHD and autism are commonly comorbid.
Got any strong opinions on trains or planes
I mean I fucking love planes but less particular models and more that I’m still blown away they work at all. I love sitting on them and thinking about all the engineering.
ADHD and Autism commonly go hand-in-hand, and a lot of people with both tend to not get the Autism diagnosis because we get misdiagnosed as having a very severe case of ADHD, a lot of doctors (at least, in my part of the world) are hesitant to give the Autism diagnosis so when both are present it’s often an easy way out of having to diagnose it.
Doctors being hesitant to diagnose is also one of the reasons why self-diagnosis is generally supported among Autistic communities, it also tends to be more difficult to be diagnosed as an adult than as a child.
There’s also more reasons to both of these, but those are some I felt to point out on this.
I’d recommend looking into ASD1 symptoms, as Autism is not always as visible as people think.
the doctor said that while it was very likely, it was unlikely getting a formal diagnosis would open up any additional treatment avenues.
it’s funny finding stuff like this though, it feels very right.
I’ll look up asd1, thanks!
Allistic, weird.
Neurotypicals are an important part of a full and inclusive society, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t spend resources looking for a cure, or look into causes and ways to prevent it.
Also I’m pretty sure this would have been an issue for many neurotypicals too, since the info wasnt communicated properly.
Yeah, that’s usually my first thought when I misunderstand someone; that they just didn’t convey the information in a way that is understandable. I just feel like this has happened so often that it must have something to do with me.
Some of those points apply tho other not-neurotypicals.
True. I think the larger point is that we have to be careful what social norms we adopt as a society to make sure we aren’t leaving a large group of people out.
I see this post as just venting and trying on a new perspective.
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“being decent at math” why would I work to be decent at something I can just bullshit my way through
One of my exes is autistic and also had dyscalcula. Took me a while to accept that she will never enjoy math like I do. It was depressing.
