In the post shared by Musk, the account lamented the presence of humanitarian groups in the Mediterranean Sea that rescue migrants from distressed vessels.
“These NGOs are subsidized by the German government,” the account posted. “Let’s hope AfD wins the elections to stop this European suicide.”
10-15 years ago I remember being told that Nazism couldn’t take hold again in Germany because of all the laws, and the education in schools about Nazis, and stigma, and people who would fist-fight Nazis in the street if they saw right-wing symbols.
Was I sold an optimistic outlook or has the situation just changed that drastically since then?
As a non-German who is particularly not keen about Nazism but who doesn’t speak enough German to keep a closer eye on it over there, I’m grateful for your name and shame overview.
German here. Sorry bro, that was all just wishfull thinking. Actually fascism can come back anytime, anywhere if we don´t actively prevent it.
Agreed about active prevention, I think that’s why I’m so surprised and saddened Germany hasn’t done much better at it. There were active legal and education strategies put in place and I wanted to believe it could support sufficient systemic change.
At 12.6% of the vote for AfD from last election though, it seems to be nowhere near sufficient. And that terrifies me.
It pretty much looked like that systemic change had been made in west germany, then the reunification came and changed everything since it turned out that in the GDR, fascism had been very well preserved, especially in the “liberated” working class. Soon after the german reunification the first migrants asylum home for was burned by neonazis and since then there has been neonazi terror.
If that scares you don´t check up on the newer polls T_T
A lot of the education and events were about remembering the past, I think it should have been more about causes and prevention but that would have hurt more current political interests.
I mean we did do, and still do, better than many other states in europe. We have had (sometimes extremly) right wing governments in the eastern parts of europe for a long-ish time, see hungary, austria, poland, france struggling with keeping LePene’s party from power, italy having a premier that follows the teachings of the original fascist Mussolini. The AfD has been a bad sign but they were far from getting any real power besides making us look stupid for the last ten years. Now for the last year they are actually starting to take burocratic positions with political significance.
These next few months and years might be very influencial on how we develop as a country. We will have a few elections for the state governments and the federal government will be elected in two years.
Nazism is still a shunned no-go, and the AfD knows that (and regularly accuses others of being Nazis). The way I see it, its officials are still Nazis though, but they get around acknowledging that by just positioning themselves as counter-culture opposition to progressive movements, which is great at mobilizing a united front of anyone who feels attacked by any part of progressivism. Meanwhile, they also covertly appease other Nazis and the extreme right through dogwhistles and the like. The anti-progressive voters just ignore or tolerate this. This combination sadly proves successful. When they start building the camps, of course everyone should’ve known they’re Nazis, but no one thinks that far even though it’s their policies’ logical conclusion.
Yeah, exact same thing is happening in Australia. Even the camps, they’re just not explicitly extermination camps as much as “destroy your soul with indefinite and lengthy confinement” camps. They prefer the name “detention centres” though. I hope refugees in Europe are treated better than that.
No, sadly refugees are already treated quite badly here. Germany took in a respectable amount but then left it to the EU border countries to either deal with them with little to no help or just shut themselves off completely. :( What would really be needed is a program to redistribute resources from the wealthy profiting from neocolonialism/climate change to those affected by it, but it’s generally framed as if the general population would need to pay for that which turns them against the refugees.
Think it’s called Socialist utopia? With you big dog, that would be fantastic.
They also take advantage of people’s lack of math skills to present scary absolute numbers of immigrants that are not that high per capita.
Well the UK have tried to emulate Australia by outsourcing detention to Rwanda, so no. Probably not.
Unfortunately we don‘t have enough left wing fist-fighters anymore, cuz „ArE yOu ReAlLy BeTtEr, If YoU pUnCh NaZiS?!“
Fuck that. Come to a punk show. We don’t put up with those shitheads. To quote The Dead Kennedy’s, “Nazi Punks, FUCK OFF!!!”
Nazis and fascists that show to punk shows leave with black eyes, bloody noses, and missing teeth.
Punks doing a better job at denazification, than the Allies after WW2
Yeah… Reddit really made me feel like a sociopath about this. Why are we obsessed with the high road? Like… I’m teaching my son pacifism all day everyday. He’s the biggest kid, still, our checklist before hitting back has like 30 things you do first, and only to save your life. But… Nazis? Am I a fuckin dinosaur? I’ve even talked to a nazi for hours and told him I was an undermensch class in the middle of it, and seemed to get through to him with a really positive experience (per his own comments)… I’m not some murder porn violent weirdo looking for a reason… but srsly… They’re Nazis. Fuck around find out, no? Be a Nazi??? Yeah man… you’re gonna get knocked out if there’s justice and nobody is giving af about you. Aita?
The internet was still a very different place 10-15 years ago.
Fair. It’s hard to pinpoint what is an increase in overall amount or just an increase in findable and actively promoted amounts.
I guess I just wanted to believe it was something that could be successfully removed.
I think the global mood (and Overton window) have generally shifted very rapidly to the right in the past 20 years or so, and bigots everywhere aren’t as fearful of taking the mask off as they used to be (but the point being - they never went anywhere, they just got good at hiding, but now no longer need to).
It’s also worth noting that denazification happened in theory, but in practice Nazis remained in high powered positions pretty much continually after the war https://www.businessinsider.nl/former-nazi-officials-in-germany-post-world-war-ii-government-2016-10?international=true&r=US
I’ve also been watching a BBC series that’s been dealing with the hunt for Nazis after the war, but which touches often on the fact that only a tiny percentage were ever caught or prosecuted, and that many establishments (including the judicial system) was still staffed and run by ex members of the Nazi party.
Never mind all the Nazis that established themselves outside of Germany after the war, and then those who simply support similar ideas (like those who inspired them in the first place - the American white supremacist)
So yeah, the theory is nice, but the reality is quite different.
An eternal problem that likely contributes far more than we could ever guess. Tragic.
I remember that we discussed this specific question at school. How dangerous it is to believe that “this can’t happen here again because we all remember it and everybody is so well educated about it”. That’s when you start letting your guard down. That’s also when people who may not identify as nazis (yet) start thinking :“Well, national socialism obviously can’t happen again, therefore MY far right views can’t possibly count as national socialism, therefore they’re ok.”
It’s all bullshit. You can educate people all you want, there will always be a certain percentage of assholes and idiots and we’ve been far too tolerant of those for far too long.
The same happens here as in every other western country. The right-wing shares their winning strategies of disinformation, populism and avoiding talking about actual policies, which seems to work more or less the same in all countries. Germany is just lagging behind a bit.
There always has been a solid 15% of the German population that is lost to democracy and favours fascist and extremely right-wing politics. This “nazi” foundation has always been well established in many governmental bodies and economic branches as they were necessary to keep the country running after the end of WW2.
Now they are employing the same tactics as before 1945: stimulating fear among disadvantaged population groups (if factual or imaginative) and scapegoating minorities (migrants) for everything bad.
The perceived hesitation and disagreement of the current government doing their part, many of the „Bio-Germans“ who feel disadvantaged turn to the idea of „the new strong man“ that finally „cleans up the cesspool“ they imagine the current political system to be.
If nothing drastically changes, I see whole federal states go lost to the AfD that especially in eastern states are nothing more than a thinly veiled new NSDAP.
Yeah, the tactics they use are very internationally copy-pasted at this point, but 15% seems higher than I had assumed. Not hugely higher, admittedly.
That number is short of constant across a number of societies I know well, but, and here’s the trick, it’s elastic.
If you really push back on it as a society, you can shame most of them into pretending they are just conservatives and the support for your local flavor of authoritarian extreme right wing parties dwindles to 5-ish percent.
However, if you let up, they are free to influence and recruit and their support can easily swell to 20-25%, which is a level where in proportional systems you can start winning elections and leading coalition governments.
So, keep pushing the fuckers back into the sewers.
This is unfortunately the reality, as especially the majority of the German media outlets still seem to try to rationalise and understand those “prodigial sons” (as they seem to perceive them).
However, exactly the opposite to winning them back to democracy is happening: Feeling their voice being heard and valued, they catch emotional tailwinds and become even more radical.
I completely agree, and I thought the push back was more effective than it seems it has been. If a country with some of the most strict anti-Nazi measures in place is still netting 12.6% to its extreme-right political party though, I am horrified to think how large that number can stretch - now that we have nearly lost all the generation who saw it first-hand.
Admittedly the situation in Australia is very different and votes are counted differently, but our furthest right-wing parties seem to only take maximum 10%. And that’s already high enough for me to be nervous about the consequences.
I thought the same 20 years ago. The positive outlook was common sense at the time, not an exaggeration. The overall vibe was inclusive, we had open borders in Europe since the 90ies, and German public opinion pro-European and progressive-leaning.
Neonazis were a thing, but a niche phenomenon. Angry young man. Not a part of mainstream society and everyone from conservative teachers to rock bands were ‘against nazis’, whatever this means.
The situation has changed indeed and it is somewhat scary. Right-wing (including fascist) talking points get significant air-time in the media. Politicians use language that appeals to far-right voters much more openly, dog whistles maybe.
The society is more divided these days. Bavaria votes next weak and you will see a strong divide between urban and rural. Trivial things like how to address groups of people including all genders are heated debates. Rational policies towards solving the climate crisises are stalling because change is seen as an attack on a livestyle. Better: Propaganda frames everything as a cultural war. Your vegan sandwhich, that’s war against cattle farmers.
Source: German
I think the only difference between Australia and Germany might be the vegan sandwich part of your post. Although, I probably wouldn’t try to order the vegan option one in one of our cattle-farming towns… but they would just laugh and call me a city-person, which would be true.
This thread has made it very clear to me that yet again, despite languages and regions, we’re experiencing the exact same issues and rhetoric. I suspect that’s true globally.
I hope we can all find a way out of this mess soon.
This will give you a study based view in this topic. https://www.dw.com/en/why-is-far-right-populism-becoming-more-popular-in-germany/a-66084741
A lot of people just stared accepting far right wing views like about abortion, LGBT hate and etc. Instead of fighting them. They also made a lot people really belive that all problems we face are not from big companies wo only pay minimum wage (which isn’t enough to support people in bigger cities) or who own over 70% of the real estate in Germany but because of left wing politics and immigrants.
“Getting hold of” can be interpreted broadly. While it’s not unrealistic that the next coalition might be conservative CxU + libertarian FDP + nazi AfD, it’s also very likely that the AfD gets banned until the next election, the responsible organization already has an eye on them. And a government with the AfD would be catastrophic (obviously), but it wouldn’t equal the creation the fourth reich. They would need a 2/3 majority to change/abolish constitutional laws and to change art. 1-20, which ensure human rights and such stuff, they would first need to change/abolish art. 79, which not even CxU and FDP would support. And here’s the fun part: if the AfD actually planned to do that, even without outright stating it, it would be enough to get them banned. The protecting mechanisms are there, the AfD can’t do anything about it and the other parties with coalition potential, even CxU and FDP, wouldn’t pave the way that far for another dictatorship.
So while it’s grim that a Nazi party is that popular, the damage they can possibly do is definitely below 1933.
On the other hand, should they gain 33% of seats, they can block all changes to the constitution. Should they occupy enough seats in the Bundesrat, they can block statewide policies. They do not need to be in power, to have a lasting impact on the German democracy. Given the current trend and that a not functional government leads to even more votes for the far right, it still looks bleak.
Agreed
It’s something, I’ll take it. I suppose I shouldn’t underestimate Germany’s fondness for legal systems and bureaucracy, even if I’m sad cultural change efforts haven’t been as successful as I had hoped.
For one, calling every person who is against migrants or refugees “a Nazi” is really bad. I don’t know where this originally started, but people seem to use this word for all kinds of assholes.
Nazis were a political party and in Germany you learn about history of the Nazis and second world war. That’s not the same as learning how to not be against migrants or something.
Nazi symbols etc. are still forbidden and even many extremely right wing people would be appalled if you call them a Nazi. These are two different things. And the inflationary use of the word is really stupid (not directed at you, I see it everywhere online for all kinds of things). You give them an easy way out because they will start a discussion about the word or try to push the narrative that only “real Nazis” are the problem.
The movement to the right you see currently in Germany has the same reasons as the movement to the right you see in other countries currently as well.
Not particularly well-off people and/or not particularly bright people and/or just greedy people are scared they will get left behind or become less wealthy if other people take or even participate in what they see as theirs. Refugees and migrants are by far the easiest target for these frustrations.
Sorry, but no. They arent just a party that happens to be against migrants and is called nazis because of that. That is a part of their reportoire, but the connections go far deeper than that.
The AfD is anti-migrant, anti-gay, anti-trans, anti-women, anti-handicapped, anti-minority and anti-“”“bankers”“” (i.e jews).
Their members routinely (both in public and even more severely in private) make reference to programs and actions by the nazis. Every now and then a photo of one of them doing a hitler salute or standing in front of the hakenkreuz-flag goes public. They have connections to right-wing terrorists.
At the latest when höcke called for a “180 degree turn in history politics" (i.e towards the third reich, not away from it), I have lost any semblence of understanding for anyone who isnt willing to realize that the AfD isnt just a conservative party to the right of CDU/CSU.
They are Nazis.
And not calling them that for some attempt at political maneuvering just means that they and their voters arent confronted with the history and opposition to their ideas, and can instead continue to mask as “just conservatives”.
I am not saying they are just a conservative party. I also didn’t thought the person I reacted to was only talking about AFD, but the general rise in right wing rhetoric in different parties and the populace. It’s also not just the AFD that is problematic.
Just calling them Nazis plays right into their hands and won’t help at all. They will simply turn it around and complain you insult them as Nazis and lament you are just trying to kill their arguments with it.
The term “Nazi” sees so much overuse, you gain absolutely nothing by using it. In my opinion it is better to directly address and call out what they say precisely.
The majority of people voting for the AFD don’t do the Hitler salute and similar. And calling them Nazis won’t change their mind but instead it will do the exact opposite! It will encourage them to vote for the AFD or similar parties because now they can claim you are just trying to insult them and won’t address what they say. “The evil left just wants to silence us!”
Their arguments are easily refuted and that’s what needs to happen again and again. While it might feel satisfying labeling them, it won’t help the cause.
While I’m not convinced the distinction between extreme right wing supporters and Nazis is as significant as you suggest, I do understand that it is possible to object to unchecked mass migration without being a Nazi or even being right-wing.
Refugees and corresponding xenophobia are a pretty standard global topic for obvious reasons, and as much as I wish infrastructure could be instantaneously built, I know it can’t be.
But:
We’re well past discussing the nuances of “what separates Nazis from other far-right ideology” and plausible deniability when someone starts invoking the name of fucking Buchenwald. Even if the rest of that list were somehow acceptable or could be explained away, there’s no mistaking what Buchenwald means.
I’m not surprised by the global rise of the right-wing rhetoric as the situation gets harder for 99% of people. I have been watching that closely for years. Xenophobia is always presented everywhere as the false easy solution. What I am surprised by is that Germany is allowing politicians to advocate specific Nazi atrocities when there are purportedly laws against glorifying Nazis.
Calling for a second holocaust, demanding refugees should be executed, all of this is forbidden in Germany. I don’t know where you got your information from but none of this has happened:
There are Nazis in the AFD, though. They want to stop teaching so much about the Holocaust at schools and they use rhetoric tricks to get people riled up or circumvent the laws around denying the Holocaust.
For example Björn Höcke (who almost certainly is a Nazi) said: “Alles für Deutschland” (All for Germany) and has to go to court for this.
I think we still misunderstand each other on why calling right wing people in general Nazis is a problem. And Björn Höcke is a good example.
The word is used as if you are right wing, then extremely right wing and then you are a Nazi. As if this is somehow worse than being extremely right wing. But “Nazi” is not the superlative of being right wing. And people like Höcke will use this to get people to vote for the AFD.
A Nazi is someone who is, for example, denying the Holocaust. Or believes in Herrenrasse or something like that. Right wing people simply have to deny that they are Nazis (which is easily done, look above) and suddenly your “argument” is gone.
That’s exactly what Björn Höcke did before and will do in court again. It will again be about whether or not he can be called a Nazi which is completely irrelevant if you want to tackle the problem that is people voting for AFD and other politicians being increasingly right wing.
When the court says: “Yes, Björn Höcke used Nazi rhetoric!” The AFD will say: “Oh no what an evil man! With Nazis we don’t want to have anything in common! He is not AFD anymore.” And all the people can continue to vote for AFD, they aren’t Nazis afterall. Great!
Old twitter screenshot of Mirko Welsch’s account apparently calling for Antifa to be deported to Buchenwald
I was unable to determine what other interpretations this might have:
Perhaps there is some nuance I have missed, ‘nach’ is a very versatile word even if the rest are very unambiguous.
This factchecker analysis looked even-handed enough for me to be satisfied it was not just my poor German or inaccurate auto-translation.
For the other incidents, I’ll leave you to check the post I initially replied to for names and accuracy checking.
Literally every single one of these quotes where either proven as false or the people are not part of the AFD and/or they were brought to court and judged for it. That’s all on the site of Faktencheck.
Are you referring to a different Factchecker than the link i posted? Or are you saying they just left up the page with incorrect information? “Proven as false” doesn’t seem to match this quote from the link I posted.
Did you ever argue with one of the AfD voters? They don’t take facts well, they don’t care about facts anymore. It’s a bit like arguing with conspiracy theorists.
There definitely is overlap between them and those who believe in conspiracy theories. But there are a lot of average people who vote for them as well. Like, middle aged, not particularly poor or wealthy. Your typical boomer…
Many AFD voters I’ve heard talking or saw what they write believe that specifically Muslim immigrants are bad for Europe. And/or they think that the green party is responsible for them having less money.
For those AFD voters who are immigrants, they vote for them because they believe refugees specifically cost too much money and they are also against the green party. At least, that’s what I hear from the people in my neighborhood, which is mostly people whose families migrated from Turkey, sometimes two generations ago.
A third group think they somehow get back at the “elite” when they vote for AFD. Like a poor example of an act of defiance.
I believe that at least those who are not primarily xenophobic are still people we could bring to the other side. We waited to long to ban the AFD. I fear if they ban them now, the next right wing party will get a headstart in voters…