Even if you assume this is just an interimperialist war, its basic Leninism for western communists to support and propagandize for the defeat of your own imperialist bloc in that war.
Vietnam turned a majority of Americans against the military for a number of years and gave black radicals enough room to create the Black Panther Party and end legally sanctioned segregation.
Was that worth the lives of all the Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians who were killed, or the generations afterwards who died from unexploded ordinance or birth defects? I don’t think that’s such a clear cut “yes”.
Point being that non-interventionism would have been preferable, which is the position I’ve been taking all along.
Revolutionary defeatism includes undermining your own nation’s war effort, I don’t understand the difference in your position. If you can’t prevent the war, you undermine the capacity to continue it.
Since the left isn’t in any position to stop the war the better outcome would still be that the smaller bloc of capital survives as a counterweight to hegemonic capital. Better if the Russian federation remains friendly to China, and remains available to anti-colonial movements as a counterbalance to colonial forces in Africa and the Middle East (regardless of how effective they are, it seems these anti-colonial governments still want them). It’s better when capital is divided and limited than unified and able to exercise unlimited exploitation.
It seems like the Ukrainians wanted a peace deal almost immediately after the threat to Kiev, it wasn’t Russia or the Ukrainian government that blew up those peace talks.
Realistically, there’s no way this war doesn’t end with Russia gaining Donetsk and Luhansk and not much else (because they don’t really want anything beyond that, short of regime change in Kiev, which is definitely not happening). Both Russia and the US seemingly have the resources to indefinitely drag out this war just sitting on the same battle lines. Continuing the stalemate only results in more needless death.
Also realistically, my capacity to “undermine” anything is 0, so let’s have this conversation with that in mind. Continuing: as already established, I don’t support the US’s efforts to continue this war. Similarly, I don’t support Russia’s efforts to do the same. I don’t think they realistically have the ethnic Russian support base to hold western Ukraine without serious loss of life for everyone involved. Because I feel the evolving multipolarity would have been occurring anyway, I don’t think the geopolitical implications of a western “defeat” here are worth the continuing loss of life.
Because I feel the evolving multipolarity would have been occurring anyway, I don’t think the geopolitical implications of a western “defeat” here are worth the continuing loss of life.
Western leftists often historically have “felt” that progress happens on its own, imagining a hypothetical idealist universe where everything good happens without anything bad. It’s ahistorical and just silly. There’s one country actually defeating and damaging the US empire in reality, but instead you want a parallel reality where America damages itself
And how will this war be any different in that respect? Russia’s not aiming to annex all of Ukraine. The remaining rump state will be even more vassalized than before, win or lose.
Vassalized yet the billions of investments poured in left in smoke, and hopefully a landlocked rump state with half the territory will forever be unable to create a large economic powerhouse for NATO
sO yOu’D sAy tHAt yOu uNcRitIcAlY sUPPOrt a cApITaLIst sTaTe
Seriously? That’s the best you got dipshit, you can only speak in accusations and thought-terminating cliches? Get a grip motherfucker, liberals like you are reason neo-nazism has been so normalized
Is that supposed to be a own? Yes I prefer Russian capitalists defeating Ukrainian nazis, so Russian communists don’t have to face both western backed Russian and Ukrainian nazis
I don’t understand your position. So, in the event of an imminent second Russian revolution, your supposition is that Ukrainians would be a significant counterrevolutionary force and that the US wouldn’t intervene militarily, and so if there are fewer Ukrainians, there’s more likely to be a successful second communist revolution in Russia in the near future?
And you think this is a reasonable take to have. And that it’s the land border with NATO that would be the big issue in a military conflict with the US?
This is such a bonkers take to have in light of the absurd probabilities involved. You’re like a chud who buys a gun because you think you’re going to take on the Marines.
I don’t understand your position. So, in the event of an imminent second Russian revolution, your supposition is that Ukrainians would be a significant counterrevolutionary force and that the US wouldn’t intervene militarily, and so if there are fewer Ukrainians, there’s more likely to be a successful second communist revolution in Russia in the near future?
What? They said that the Ukrainians need to be dead so that the next revolution would succeed in Russia. At least that’s how I read it. How did you interpret it?
My meaning was perfectly clear you disingenuous liberal fuck, I said Ukrainian nazis need to be defeated for Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) to have any chance of socialist development
Unless you want to assert Nazis should win this war and cleanse Donbass and Crimea of Russian speakers?
The fact that you’re the only person who brought the term “uncritically” into it goes to show how much work you have to do to make up a position to be smug towards.
One side has criminalized nazis within their military ranks and the other side hasn’t
Or did you miss all those Russian interrogation videos that shows russian troops strip searching POWs for sign of nazi tattoos
What am I saying of course you missed it, cause actaully engaging with reality or the evidence is toxic to liberals these days
Russia has a underground nazi problem, Ukraine is a nazi state, get the fuckin difference
So you’d say that you uncritically support a capitalist state?
No one here unironically supports capitalist Russia uncritically
We’re reading different comments my friend.
Nope, everyones reading the same comments, you’re just being an obtuse little troll and intentionally misconstruing what everyone is telling you
That’s totally on you
Even if you assume this is just an interimperialist war, its basic Leninism for western communists to support and propagandize for the defeat of your own imperialist bloc in that war.
America’s been losing wars for a long time and no socialist project has ever erupted from it.
Revolutionary defeatism doesn’t seem to work very well.
Vietnam turned a majority of Americans against the military for a number of years and gave black radicals enough room to create the Black Panther Party and end legally sanctioned segregation.
Was that worth the lives of all the Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians who were killed, or the generations afterwards who died from unexploded ordinance or birth defects? I don’t think that’s such a clear cut “yes”.
Point being that non-interventionism would have been preferable, which is the position I’ve been taking all along.
Revolutionary defeatism includes undermining your own nation’s war effort, I don’t understand the difference in your position. If you can’t prevent the war, you undermine the capacity to continue it.
Since the left isn’t in any position to stop the war the better outcome would still be that the smaller bloc of capital survives as a counterweight to hegemonic capital. Better if the Russian federation remains friendly to China, and remains available to anti-colonial movements as a counterbalance to colonial forces in Africa and the Middle East (regardless of how effective they are, it seems these anti-colonial governments still want them). It’s better when capital is divided and limited than unified and able to exercise unlimited exploitation.
It seems like the Ukrainians wanted a peace deal almost immediately after the threat to Kiev, it wasn’t Russia or the Ukrainian government that blew up those peace talks.
Realistically, there’s no way this war doesn’t end with Russia gaining Donetsk and Luhansk and not much else (because they don’t really want anything beyond that, short of regime change in Kiev, which is definitely not happening). Both Russia and the US seemingly have the resources to indefinitely drag out this war just sitting on the same battle lines. Continuing the stalemate only results in more needless death.
Also realistically, my capacity to “undermine” anything is 0, so let’s have this conversation with that in mind. Continuing: as already established, I don’t support the US’s efforts to continue this war. Similarly, I don’t support Russia’s efforts to do the same. I don’t think they realistically have the ethnic Russian support base to hold western Ukraine without serious loss of life for everyone involved. Because I feel the evolving multipolarity would have been occurring anyway, I don’t think the geopolitical implications of a western “defeat” here are worth the continuing loss of life.
Western leftists often historically have “felt” that progress happens on its own, imagining a hypothetical idealist universe where everything good happens without anything bad. It’s ahistorical and just silly. There’s one country actually defeating and damaging the US empire in reality, but instead you want a parallel reality where America damages itself
Losing wars how? Sure they’re technical defeats but they get the job done and create regions ripe for hyper exploitation.
And how will this war be any different in that respect? Russia’s not aiming to annex all of Ukraine. The remaining rump state will be even more vassalized than before, win or lose.
Vassalized yet the billions of investments poured in left in smoke, and hopefully a landlocked rump state with half the territory will forever be unable to create a large economic powerhouse for NATO
Here it is, the chauvinism I knew you had exposed by your own hand
sO yOu’D sAy tHAt yOu uNcRitIcAlY sUPPOrt a cApITaLIst sTaTe
Seriously? That’s the best you got dipshit, you can only speak in accusations and thought-terminating cliches? Get a grip motherfucker, liberals like you are reason neo-nazism has been so normalized
I’m not the one rooting for the capitalists to beat the other capitalists.
Is that supposed to be a own? Yes I prefer Russian capitalists defeating Ukrainian nazis, so Russian communists don’t have to face both western backed Russian and Ukrainian nazis
Again get a grip you nazi supporting motherfucker
I don’t understand your position. So, in the event of an imminent second Russian revolution, your supposition is that Ukrainians would be a significant counterrevolutionary force and that the US wouldn’t intervene militarily, and so if there are fewer Ukrainians, there’s more likely to be a successful second communist revolution in Russia in the near future?
And you think this is a reasonable take to have. And that it’s the land border with NATO that would be the big issue in a military conflict with the US?
This is such a bonkers take to have in light of the absurd probabilities involved. You’re like a chud who buys a gun because you think you’re going to take on the Marines.
I don’t even know how to parse this.
What? They said that the Ukrainians need to be dead so that the next revolution would succeed in Russia. At least that’s how I read it. How did you interpret it?
My meaning was perfectly clear you disingenuous liberal fuck, I said Ukrainian nazis need to be defeated for Eastern Europe (including Ukraine) to have any chance of socialist development
Unless you want to assert Nazis should win this war and cleanse Donbass and Crimea of Russian speakers?
Come on be honest you little ghoul
I honestly have no idea how you read it that way.
While America holds sway over all the Earth no revolution can succeed anywhere. The empire needs to fall
palestine (capitalist) and iran (capitalist) should destroy israel (fascist)
The fact that you’re the only person who brought the term “uncritically” into it goes to show how much work you have to do to make up a position to be smug towards.
i critically support them destroying NATO Nazi militaries on their border
Capitalism is a spectrum