They already have a platform It’s called 4chan
And Voat and Gab and Truth
Well, not Voat any more.
Didn’t voat shut down?
Ahh, I wasn’t aware
And Parler, which is just as dead as the other three.
See, that’s the thing: there’s a reason why all of the “free speech” (read: nazi safe space) services are either dead or dying. It’s because the nazis don’t actually want their own platform; instead, they specifically want to come infest everybody else’s in order to spread their hate. They’re less a community, and more a disease.
Fuck fascism mkay
Nazi leemings… Go fuck yourself!
Some real controversial hot take right here
It was a play on “nazi punks fuck off” and “Russian Warship, Go Fuck Yourself”. But have it you’re way.
I hope the nazis do stay out because I was really excited for voat for about a day until it became nazi town
You can’t hope they stay out. Admins and moderators have to take active steps to push them out. I want to give some kudos to lemmy.world for getting out in front of this, and I want to name and shame sh.itjust.works for having a vote in their agora community almost a week ago and then proceeding to do nothing
Moderating is time consuming, tedious and done by volunteers. I’m not surprised that they get overrun after the latest influx of users.
It’s why my primary instance of beehaw elected to just defederate and sort things out later instead of desperately trying to navigate a flood of scumbags. The key will be implementing better tools and getting more people on board for community curation
Which is why the very first question an instance admin or moderator needs to think about and answer for all to hear is “how will you handle Nazis?”
I received a modest amount of downvotes on the big R for saying something similar.
I also commented (well, asked a rhetorical question but definitely got answers) here a couple of days ago that places that claim to be for free thought and expression tend to be full of either harmful garbage or nonsense conspiracy theories.
All it’s going to take is one instance that isn’t defederated with a jailbait community or someone with a poorly trained militia planning an act of terrorism to get Lemmy or kbin painted with the “great place for pedos” or “Nazi haven” brush.
I think I saw a post about how punk bars have an absolute 0-nazi policy because there isn’t a real between a bar with nazis and a nazi bar. Other people will leave, nazis will realize they’re safe there.
I think the thing that makes lemmy and kbin difficult concepts for normies will also protect it from blanket association with nazis if one instance is infiltrated. Most people don’t fully understand the distinction between the shared protocol and a site’s domain.
People might think “lemmy is full of nazis”, but it won’t mean anything to them if I say i’m hanging out on midwest.social. To them it’ll just sound like a regional blog website.
How I felt about Gab until they did the same and quickly. Like the mods and administrators were nazi and racist too.
I was looking forward to Voat but all the hateful/pedo subs migrating to it were bound to turn it into a cesspool.
Sounds a lot like Minds
Wasn’t voat created because reddit was banning hate subs?
No, it was just where the people from those subs decided to go and ruin.
as a jewish person… all i have to say is what the fuc
It’s the internet, there’s Nazis everywhere. I got to see how they work (on the internet) because they converted a long time acquaintance of mine. I’m going to start working on some mod tools to help shut their bullshit down once work stops being a shitnado.
Sorry to hear about your acquaintance. Fuck nazi and thank you we need people to make sure we keep them the fuck out. Fuck nazi and I believe it’s only time punching someone wouldn’t be considered violent since to me a nazi isn’t a person our worth being considered human. But fucking monsters.
Fyi: Dehumanizing humans was a core feature of the Nazi ideology.
There’s a difference between “I don’t respect this person’s humanity” based on traits they were born with versus active choices and decisions that person has made. I would define one of the core human traits as care and empathy for others, and I don’t think Nazis demonstrate that trait
They don’t. Neither do most CEO and all billionaires. They have no empathy and in some cases enjoy causing suffering. Especially on those they deem lesser than themselves.
To me that makes them not human. But nazis are whole other beast and I think it perfectly fine to shoot them into the sun.
I think it’s important to remember that these monsters are all too human.
It’s still good to shoot them into the Sun.
I’m not going to join your ride on the slippery slope of dehumanization. You need to get to grips with the reallity that your rosy fiction of what humans should be is not what humans are. Your jump to dehumanization is a perfect illustration of a not so nice human trait that enabled some of the most horrible episodes of human history. Be better than that.
Are we dicussing the same thing here? I am talking about Nazis and no one except for nazis should disagree with me on how they should be treated and dealt with. Thank you very much. I don’t care if I hurt thier fucking fee fees. Fuck Nazis and only good one is a dead one. Punch a nazi in the face.
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Calling anyone living today a Nazi is wrong to begin with.
I appreciate that you started off your post with the stupidest possible thing you could say so that everybody knows they don’t need to waste time reading the rest.
You might want to look up the term neo-Nazi and learn why there is a distinction between it and the term Nazi. Your display of ignorance is indicative of that you really should read my “post” (it’s a comment) in its entirety.
Good job using the bullshit “Nazis are socialists” lie, that way it’s easy to ignore you.
I never said that the Nazis were socialists (as we would define socialist today). I said “social” was part of their name (NSDAP, S ⟶ Sozialistisch) and not just a hollow word at that, which is a historic fact, whether you like it or not.
If your take from what I wrote is “Nazis are socialists”, you should improve on your reading skills.
But it’s ok to dehumanize someone who I disagree with. /s.
There’s not really nazis, at least not many. People on the internet view right leaning views as literal nazis these days.
Except they are
they really are not
Agree to disagree
Nazis were a political movement and party in WW2 Germany. The people who hate black people and Jews these days do not align at all with that party. There’s actual terms like Neonazi which is rare as well, or White Supremacist. The problem with using Nazi to define anybody currently is that in most online spaces a Nazi is not somebody who wants to exterminate the Jews and create a white world, but somebody you just disagree with and think is mean.
Oh I’m sorry, does it hurt the feelings of neonazis and white supremacists if I call them Nazis? Thank goodness someone told me. I’ll be sure to keep calling them Nazis from now on
It hurts the power of labeling something as Nazis when it’s just somebody you don’t like.
I will never tire of people who do not grasp linguistics trying to be pedantic about words.
Words mean what people use them to mean. Most people use Nazi to refer to both 1930s German National Socialists and modern day white supremacists. Therefore, that’s what it means. English is not a dead language like Latin, so stop trying to treat it like one with regards to this one word. It just makes you look like a Nazi.
And pro-Trump Republicans are neither of those things. There may be some white supremacists in their club but by no means is it a requirement. All I see from them is delusions and shitposting.
The entire republican party is currently lockstep saying all trans folk are trying to corrupt, if not molest, children. They’re promising national legislation to oppress and punish them if they win. Before them, it was Mexicans and Muslims. They always have a group of “others” to scapegoat, and given enough time and power they always eventually act on it.
“Never again” means we’re supposed to recognize and stop this behavior before it can harm anybody, not wait until it’s too late as we disingenuously quibble over definitions.
Bah… you can argue semantics all day long, I have no qualm calling these alt-right fucks nazis. Just look at the dumpsterfire that voat.co became. Nazis comes close enough to describe that.
I can tell you TheDonald didn’t like it either. That’s why they left. The free speech absolutist policies meant they got called out all the time and they couldn’t handle it.
So when men march wearing black balaclava and waving actual nazi flags, calling themselves nazis and intimidating vulnerable minorities with violence, you don’t call them Nazis? Really?
Edit: This is neither hypothetical nor a unique occurrence
More likely neo-Nazis than actual Nazis if not pure edge lords. I think the best way to refer to them is untermensch because the actual Nazis would have seen them as lesser which I find hilarious and should insult them thoroughly. They deserve mockery and derision.
Incorrect
Agree to disagree
Found the Nazi. Get the fuck out of here.
What are you, retarded?
Just let them have their of naziverse. I don’t want to see it.
I’m a bit out of loop, are there more info to share about?
There’s a lemmy server where a lot of alt-right and more extreme views have sub-lemmys. It got defederated by Lemmy.World and others and now they’re upset that most people on other servers don’t get to see their hate-speech.
Oh I love more and more lemmy! Its just incredible they can create their own server full of stupid ideas and we stay away from that drama
What server?
Maybe better not say it, so we don’t give them attention
It’s called exploding heads. You can find it through google, but I don’t want to link to it.
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I know people are downvoting because we don’t want to give Nazis publicity, and I agree, but honestly it is good to let people know.
On face value the name can be riot porn like and the tagline about holding elites responsible sounds great. I would have joined if not by a stroke of luck. I came here and afterward heard they were Nazis so I’m glad I missed them but not everyone is so lucky. People should know to be able to avoid Nazis.
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Except that your downvotes are public and then you’ll just be accused of being a Nazi.
This one. (Not a link to the defederated site, rather a link to one of the concern trolls whining about the defederation)
Exploding heads
Exploding heads
They’re called “communities”, not “sublemmys”. Lol.
“sublemmys” is a great silly name, though
Hey man I was barely awake.
What’s the URI of the defederated server? I want to know in order to stay away from it. Really.
I did a quick check of the frontpage of the server and didn’t find anything that extreme. Can you show me some nazi related posts?
No. Why would I want to?
You’re right. Just call everybody the names you want regardless if they are accurate or not. If it’s fashionable enough it will stick everytime, so who cares right?
What are you referring to?
Everybody in this post is calling the server nazis.
I went there and at least in the frontpage there were only edgy right wing memes and some normal posts. But no white supremacy stuff or something related to that.
So I asked if someone could show me the posts that made them call the server nazis. And instead of a reply, I only got downvotes. Because god forbid you ask people why they consider others nazis.
All I’ve seen so far was that there was a (inactive) The_Donald community on one of the bigger instances, which sparked a bit of drama…
I’m sorta embarrassed that it’s on my instance. As you point out it’s inactive. Also our community has been very much active in discussing removing them and what to do about them. We are definitely not complicit in it.
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Nah, there was another thing. Link here
Definitely a good move to defederate that cesspit
Yeah, I’m generally against quickly defederation… But there definitely nothing of value was lost.
All the random posts from that instance that somehow ended up in my “All” board were right-wing and transphobic garbage. And I mean like really low-quality “news” articles, like the shit your racist aunt shares on facebook.
Not to mention, every single user of theirs I saw comments from were just absolute jerks, not adding anything of value to discussions, and just making instances that were still federated with their nazi bar worse places to be. “But you can block them yourself” no. I don’t have time to block 6,682 users. No one does. Saying the solution to dealing with poorly moderated instances is for individuals to individually block other users is the same as saying “let’s respond to this rise in nazism in our forums by doing nothing at all”
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Man, watching Nazis piss themselves over not getting the red carpet rolled out for them sure has been popcorn-worthy.
Lol thats perfect. Link for the uninitiated:
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Same shit as 2016, different venue. A naive implementation of free-speech values says that they should have a chance to talk, but bringing understanding to the mix reveals that they don’t also value free speech, and their speech suppresses far more than it promotes.
Freedom to associate is part of freedom of expression. You are allowed to say and believe a lot of things. And everyone you try to say them to is allowed to say they would prefer you never interact with you ever again (blocking). Further, if you openly associate with people who express opinions that people find shitty, those peioke are allowed to say they don’t ever want to interact with you or anyone you associate with ever again (defederation)
“blackconservative”
Does Lemmy have an “r/asablackman” sub yet? Because I’m getting that vibe.
If you’re gonna make your username your political identity, I already don’t want yo talk to you.
He literally called referred to himself as Blackman in one of his responses to me. No not “black man”, but “Blackman”. Maybe just a typo but his responses were hilariously sad and I wish I screenshotted it.
I don’t know if @[email protected] is actually black but if he is… good lord.
I’ve noticed this person multiple times making similar posts on various sh.itjust.works internal communities and constantly getting downvoted into oblivion. They’re a disgrace.
It says post not found
Lemmy in!
Please Lemmy off Mr. Huffman’s wild ride!..
Is there a running list of bigot instances that I can block?
There is! Browse by instances like lemmy.blahaj.zone/instances, beehaw.org/instances or lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances. They have the most up to date list of people-commonly-disagreed-with-by-lefties. You can start blocking right away 😊
The problem with these lists is that people sneak things on to them.
I’m an admin on (and owner of) lemmy.ninja. We have clear anti-harassment rules, up front, in bold, front page. We have zero bots (checked daily). We have users that are LGBTQIA+. I have zero tolerance for bigotry.
Yet our site is on the lists provided.
Apparently it doesn’t matter (the lists don’t work) because all of my cross posts (from my boomer shooter community) are available on beehaw.org in their gaming section.
So these lists can be used as weapons, if they work. When thy don’t work they are just an indictment without evidence.
That sucks to be you. Enjoy being seen as a right-wing extremist no matter your personal or professional actions.
P.S. asking for evidence is racist and enables harassment (they genuinely believe this)
Yet our site is on the lists provided.
you’re wrong, your site is allowed by all the lists I mentioned.
So these lists can be used as weapons, if they work
These lists are not weapons, they are provided by the instances themselves. They are not false or artificial. They are current, and they display exactly what is real in the configuration of the servers.
So these lists are both block AND allow lists? Or are they just allow lists?
There are 3 categories in settings on your server, as far as I know: Linked, Allowed and Blocked. I don’t know the difference between Linked and Allowed, but yes, these links contain multiple lists on the same page. The format is the following: https://domain.tld/instances, you will normally find from 1 to 3 lists there, (the Linked, Allowed and Blocked lists)
Linked are servers that your server knows about (that have communicated with it)
Allowed, or the allow-list, if present means that the server can only federate with servers in the allow list. This is the most restrictive setting possible.
Block, or disallow-list, means that these servers may not federate with yours. This is where servers go generally when they are “defederated”.
Damn I think beehaw is there? I think they have an allow list.
Thank you for the clarification. The problem I have is:
Note that dbzer0 on the federation-checker.vercel.app shows we are being blocked. fba.ryona.agency shows that too, and apparently we are edgelords,don’t moderate, and have done something wrong with free speech…
So something somewhere is broken…
The problem with dbzer0 is the same we had talked about before (edit: I talked with someone else from lemmy.ninja about this topic, your instance was blocked before). It’s old news. It’s from when you had a bot problem. Ryona has a cache and doesn’t clear it too often.
The problem with toot.foundation has nothing to do with that, though. I have no idea why they would block you. You can find the up to date list of blocked instances on a mastodon by going to the https://instance.tld/about. For example, for toot.foundation, which does block lemmy.ninja, here is the updated blocklist at the bottom, you have to click Moderated servers: https://toot.foundation/about
While you did clarify for MrEUser. I will say that they could be weaponized if they are just taken by instances without understanding why they were blocked by the originating instance (especially if it is a larger one). It is obviously up to the instance creators to research things. So I am not saying that it is the same as Reddit outright banning links to sites.
But I think it is fair to consider that since many of the sites that are blocked are either linking possibly illegal or openly bigoted content. That plenty of others will think that all the blocked instances are doing those things. All because the more mainstream a site becomes with “normies”, they just see it as black and white (like they do with lots of real world things). While the actual case is that the ones that aren’t doing those things might just be blocked due to more nuanced reasons. Maybe it is simply differences in politics or maybe even just the creator trying to only federate with instances of the same language in order to make sure everyone can read the posts/comments.
That doesn’t mean that instances being able to block other instances is automatically bad or anything. It is very helpful to be able to openly see which instances are and aren’t allowed. Which is at least surface level transparent for users and potential users. And can be used for creators of instances that might have been blocked to reach out and work things out if it was blocked. Which is something that (to my knowledge) all the major social media sites do not offer and tend to hide. Preferring shadowbans and only openly admitting it if it is super problematic (like bigots or openly illegal stuff).
I can somehow agree with a few things you say, but overall I think the premise is wrong. The fact is not that most blocks or even half the blocks are due to having illegal or bad content. I also don’t know any defederation based on language or any such matter (especially since languages seen is already solved by your profile selection of language). Most blocks are automated, especially for instances that have trouble handling bot sign-ups, or those that have moderation issues. I think that the assumptions that one can make are indeed dangerous but they’re not based in reality, but in imaginary facts about what defederation means. Obviously, since we’re growing very fast, I agree that newcomers and less technically minded people may believe this is the case and use blocklists to justify random assumptions. But in the end, they would be entirely wrong, and wrong assumptions can be made about practically anything, so I wouldn’t put much value or thought into the possible wraponizationability of instance defederation lists.
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yup, they block many things, so if u wanna block many many things, why not start looking at what ppl who block many many things block?
Ah yes, block entire instances en masse without the hassle of actually making the decision yourself, that would be nice
I run my own instance so that i can take a little control over the drivel that scrolls past my eyes. Far right ideologies don’t deserve a platform or an audience.
Yeah, free speech simply means that you won’t get arrested for being an asshole. It doesn’t mean you’re entitled to be bigoted on a service someone else is hosting. This could be a single person hosting a pet as a hobby, or a corporation at a large scale. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s a third-party that you don’t own.
If people want to be jerks on purpose without others getting involved, they can find their own place to share ideas or host a service themselves. And if they don’t like people challenging their ideas, they can block them too, because they have that right on their own stuff.
Some people believe that hate and discrimination is the new normal and should be condoned by everyone. If it’s a religion thing, perhaps they should reconsider what aspects of “blind” is important in blind faith? Regardless, it’s incredible how people find these unfounded hills to die on.
Besides, their hate is directed towards what’s fashionable at the time. “Owning slaves” and “owning women” was once something people fought for. Later, when human rights started getting voted into law, their disagreement started to be expressed through bigotry.
But now that society doesn’t have much room to be racist or sexist, they are migrating to other groups they don’t like. Did they generally decide that they were wrong about their previously-targeted groups? And they’re positive that the new groups are the right groups to hate? Or perhaps some people just have a chip on their shoulder and want to hate using whatever mental gymnastics are necessary to validate themselves?
Regardless, social media is just a way for people to talk to each other, hosted by a person or a group. In terms of what’s allowed to be said, technology is irrelevant. If someone invites you to dinner for the first time, and you’re blatantly racist, you’ll probably get kicked out. Social media, hosted by others, presents exactly the same set of circumstances, no matter if your voice goes through a webserver and a database first or not.
How do yoy feel about far left ideologies?
Evergreen meme:
Considering it’s their own instance, it doesn’t matter.
Love ‘em!
Pretty good, those are the best.
Imagine thinking far left and far right are equivalent.
Right wing extremists burn people alive, while left wing extremists burn cars.
Obviously the latter is far worse as it could be my car but I don’t own any humans.
pretty based ngl
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Deserving a voice is in no way the same as deserving an audience.
I agree with this, but some beliefs are well… utterly stupid and not worth reconsidering. It’s a waste of time really.
It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous, particularly when “worthless” involves prison sentences.
It’s the deciding which ones are worthless that gets dangerous
Not making a decision is in and of itself a decision. Saying ‘Nazis deserve a voice because everyone deserves a voice’ removes the voice of minorities because Nazis murder and oppress minorities. There is a decision that has to be made somewhere. Saying ‘everyone deserves a voice and Nazis deserve a platform!’ is limiting the voice of minorities.
Could you clarify?
Sure. In authoritarian states, it’s common to outlaw “lies” about the government, where the government essentially gets to define what a lie is. The United States has its history with such laws in the Alien and Sedition Act in the late 18th century. In more modern times, you see things like Russia outlawing “lies” about the Russo-Ukraine War (including calling it a war). And by lies, I mean anything that does not match Russia’s “everything is fine” narrative. There’s also Poland banning discussion of Nazi collaboration by Poles in 2018.
I definitely separate that from things like deplatforming. Both people and companies should have freedom of association when it comes to political opinions. They should never be forced to support speech that they disagree with.
Which Lemmy instance was it that suspended Habeas Corpus?
None of them. Lemmy instances defederating are the epitome of another freedom, freedom of association. People should be able to choose who and who not to associate with without interference from the government.
Fascism isn’t an ideology that gets defeated in the marketplace of ideas. It’s core belief is enabling a small minority to violently destroy other lives. It’s not worth your consideration.
It’s actually a limp ice cold take that’s been debated to death
The problem is, this isn’t just a challenge to beliefs. This is the internet. The darkest most depraved shit that can exist… does. People forcing children to do things with animals… I’ll stop there…
The U.S. constitution supports free speech. Even it has limits. You can’t yell fire in a movie theater and not face the consequences of injuries your speech causes.
You in fact can yell fire in a theater without being arrested. It depends on the context (and weather or not there where injuries)
If the play calls for it and an actor says it. Or more simply if the theater is on fire.
With speech laws it matters more what the context is to the intended audience than what is specifically said.
Did I not mention being responsible for injuries? Your absolutely right, but you’re not correct…
Go test your theory out, I’ll be waiting for a reply.
I will next time I’m in a theater that is on fire.
Idk, gonna be a very hot take, but I like my beliefs challenged and believe that everyone deserves a voice
Nazis had a voice once, and folks listened to them. And we ended up with the Holocaust.
Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
Might be controversial but I don’t believe that people who want to murder minorities deserve a voice. I feel like that’s a pretty reasonable bar to set lol.
It’s not controversial at all. The only people making “controversy” out of it are the ones who are mad they can’t spew hate
Sure, but did they actually say they want to murder minorities?? I’m yet to see that
So you ban the “everyone deserves a voice” types? Because that’s what I said.
@kityr don’t try and sealion your way around making excuses for nazis
Tf is to sealion?? And I’d like to see the nazis you seem to be unable to not mention in a comment. What I’ve seen is that instances are defederating from exploding-heads. I’ve gone there, seen some edgier memes, some christianity oriented memes, some better memes(those three not being the same memes obv, the Biden ones are pretty unfunny). I’ve seen some honestly sensible policies - instead of banning people for using le bad words, they encourage people who are sensitive to such stuff to block and move on. You seem to call people fucking Nazis for using language that offends you, right?
The world came together in WWII and decided that Nazis didn’t deserve a place at the table. There’s a difference between “let’s decide whose economic policy is more useful now” and “hey I want everyone to have a nice life and these guys think a large chunk of the world doesn’t deserve to live at all.”
I like my beliefs challenged
you like it when “other people should be treated as people as a bare minimum” is getting challenged? because that’s the belief that your average xeno-/homo-/transphobic asshole challenges. Many beliefs I have ought to be challenged on the regular, but not THAT one
Nazi’s deserve to be named, shamed, and ignored.
Blocking instances actually makes the lives of instance admins a lot easier. It not only reduces a whole chunk of problematic content for you to moderate, but it also encourages Nazis to go to the servers you block instead of yours. Nazis can’t subscribe to the subs they want to on your server, and they get banned if they say Nazi shit, so they just leave and go to a Nazi server instead. It’s like fly paper for Nazis lol.
As a Mastodon admin with a few thousand users, I rarely see Nazi content that I have to moderate. And that’s because when I started I spent an enormous amount of time sifting through every server we federated with and blocking all of the Nazis and all the pedos and all the TERFs. And because I did that at the start, I only get maybe 10 reports a week, none of them are content that would traumatize me (almost always spam), and I also helped the servers that now use my list to do the same.
Blocking instances not only makes it easier for me to do my job, it encourages other admins to not tolerate these kinds of behaviors as well. Because if they don’t moderate well, that attracts Nazis, and then we have to limit or ban them because we’re volunteers. So everyone just ends up blocking the shittiest servers and moderates their user base well. It’s a win/win for everyone.
Nazis are not entitled to access to minorities on my server. TERFs are not entitled to access to trans users on my server. Assholes are not entitled to have access to an audience on my server. There are tons of white supremacists or TERFs or other assholes hosting plenty of other servers where they can go and do that. But I don’t want that on servers I host and my users don’t want that on servers I host. If you truly believe free speech is such a big fucking deal, then you are welcome to leave and join one of those rotting servers as well. See how fun that is for you and how long it takes for you to come crawling back.
NEIN!
Image Transcription: Meme
[‘Let me in’ - a two panel image of a man standing outside a closed metal gate, and shaking it vigorously in the second panel. This variant has the face of a yelling Adolph Hitler placed over the usual face in the meme, and a Nazi symbol swastika is placed on the person’s left bicep in the first panel. The fediverse logo, a rainbow pentagram, is positioned over the gate in the first panel]
LET ME IN
LET ME INNNNNN!!!
^I’m a human volunteer transcribing posts in a format compatible with screen readers, for blind and visually impaired users!^
I love that this is being continued here. Where are y’all organizing?
As of right now, I’m transcribing freelance. I’m not sure if or when an organized effort will move to Lemmy.
Good human
Good
Fuck the nazis
Gab users be like
Who knew distributed social media would be such a good idea
Put all the Nazis in one Instance. Then, defederate them.
Provide the URL to the hate crimes division and the January 6th panel
Love to “defederate” Nazis
:)
But only after reporting them to the legal authorities.
Depends on the country, it’s not illegal to be a Nazi in the USA or Canada for example.
But it’s still a damn good indicator they’re up to no good, and probably can be caught by other laws.
