Update was from 3 days ago, I’m really hopeful ladybird could be a future browser option to help break the stranglehold chrome has over the market, while Mozilla is struggling to find meaningful direction.
It seems like an exciting project with monthly progress updates :) they keep chipping away at compatibility.
I’m not sure I really understand the point of this. Even if you hate Mozilla, the Gecko engine is excellent and it would make far more sense to fork it than to start a new one from scratch.
Building and maintaining a browser engine is hard. FOSS means that everyone is of course free to pursue the projects that interest them, but this doesn’t seem like a great use of effort to me.
While I do think the point about forking is true, it is worth acknowledging that the gecko engine is
a) very behind other browsers in terms of implemented functionality and standards, and
b) I’ve seen devs say on multiple occasions that because of the wide range of platforms it has officially supported over time (or other reasons), the codebase has become very hard to work with and apparently it’s really hard to add new standards to it
What about the anti lgbt stuff? Thoughts…?
What about the anti lgbt stuff? Thoughts…?
It is important to remember that turning down a pull request does not make a person (or project) anti-LGBT.
Sadly, I have seen bullying and brigading from people who claim to be supporting inclusiveness, more than a few times. That behavior alone would be enough to sour me on them personally, and on any change they had submitted.
And, of course, there are other perfectly valid reasons to decline a PR as well.
Asking for changes we would like to see is fine. Demanding them is not. Resorting to character assassination when we don’t get what we want is absolutely not.
You phrase that as if turning down a pull requests in general cannot be anti-LGBT, when they obviously can. I don’t think your link helps.
No one is trying to hurt their characters. Just stating how their actions appear.
No one is trying to hurt their characters.
Then I suggest not spreading comments referencing “anti lgbt stuff” when (as far as we have seen) there is nothing anti-LGBT about them. Even if you mean no harm, it can do damage, by coloring people’s perception of the project and its leadership.
(as far as we have seen)
Speak for yourself? They have repeatedly politicised changes that make the codebase more inclusive. The thread you linked too did get heated, but this seperate PR was perfectly calm and they still locked it, while providing really contradictory reasoning. They say they don’t want to “alienate anyone who’d like to join in the project” but their use of male-gendered pronouns throughout is doing just that…
I don’t know if any of what you claim is true, since I haven’t followed those discussions. However, even if true, none of it would mean they are anti-LGBT.
Okay, but are you going to be satisfied with anything short of them saying “I’m anti-LGBT”?
I would be satisfied with people not making wild, misleading, insulting claims about others in the first place.
I wonder why you’re so intent on arguing in support of that behavior.
The brigading wasn’t from the same person who made the pull request, and happened three years later. The thread isn’t even that toxic as far as GitHub threads can get.
It’s not a great example of what you’re talking about.
I wasn’t aware of anything along those lines, but reading through the whole thread of discussion was interesting.
Things seem ambiguous currently I’ll have to keep an eye on that issue, I appreciate you mentioning it
That definitely adds a bit more context still. Thank you for the additional information.
I don’t know much about either of the first two people, but I do know lunduke and think he’s gross (if you have context on the first two you’re welcome to share but no obligation to of course :)
Though, I’m also a fan of futo and Louis Rossman. I try to air on the side of being able to appreciate people doing good work even if I don’t agree with everything they do or think. People come from different backgrounds and not everyone will see the world the way I do, or be sensitive to the pain caused by the issues that affect me personally 🤷♂️
Thanks :) I agree it is ambiguous but still an odd choice.
Can you elaborate on that?
Someone made a PR to refer to users in documentation as “they” instead of “he”. The lead maintainer rejected it saying “This project is not an appropriate arena to advertise your personal politics.” and then added a part against personal politics in the code of conduct. One brigade attracted for good reason later, another maintainer quietly merged the PR. It’s very weird, but not anything too serious IMO.
Definitely won’t be using ladybird then. If someone hates trans folks and just women in general enough that they literally see using inclusive language to refer to theoretical users as politics I don’t see any reason to do anything to elevate their work.
An absolutely strange hill to die on, and may be an indicator of a bigger hissy fit in the future.
Yeah, haven’t looked into it again but when it came up first it had big “priviliged cishet white dude (as per usual with a lot of open source projects, thanks capitalism) not having enough empathy for others to change behaviour even the tiniest bit” energy. I’m not holding my breath but I have tinsy bit of hope they’ll mature with the browser …
The person that had the PR merged wasn’t a maintainer, they just attempted to make the change using a different phrasing.
I remember they wrote “corrected grammar errors” and provided arguments and the PR got merged.Here is the PR. They even posted on Mastodon about it at the time.Edit: It seems now they require contributors to write documentation in gender-neutral language. However, the main dev still complains, to this day, how hard it is to run an OSS project while being “apolitical”.
So weird, since “they/them” have always been used to refer to people who’s gender/sex is not known!?
The only thing I can find about that is an article from someone obviously transphobic and some reddit discussion about the article.
https://www.reddit.com/r/LinuxDrama/comments/1ewj6cs/ladybird_web_browser_developer_attacked_by/
I wish i had evidence from a source less likely to ignore anything that goes against their bias. what’s there plus the stuff that happened afterwards mentioned in the reddit thread makes it seem more like the developer is ignorant but eventually came around. but there could be a lot more i don’t know about.
What are you talking about?
On a code comment the author wrote “he” somewhere, not sure if referring to a specific person or was used to generally refer to “people”. It could be the author was referring to a trans woman or could be a cis man (haven’t checked).
Somebody did a PR changing that to “they” and the author rejected it and said something along the lines of “not wanting to get political”.
Then backlash started.
Not enough meat here for me to boycott the app really. YMMV
Check my comment, he was referring to the user reading the documentation in general.
So most likely a mental translation issue. Massive nothingburguer specially with the dire need on options on the browser space
Agreed, no need to throw a bitchfit over one inclusive suggestion!
I’m really hopeful about this project. This kind of project seems like so much work for little reward, but they’re plugging along
The part with the progress graph compared to other browsers over time is especially cool!
