How to get out of an uncomfortable egg culture situation with this one simple trick.

Real talk: Calling people eggs is a violation of the egg prime directive, and is considered invalidating as you are trying to say that a person is not the gender they identify as, that their identity is invalid. Donā€™t call people eggs, like ever, itā€™s extremely uncool.

  • SecondaryAnnetagonist@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    14 hours ago

    This discourse pains me.

    Oftentimes the pushback against it implies that being transfem is such a terrible fate that implying someone might be happier following such a course of action apparently makes you a degenerate groomer somehow just as bad as the transphobes who want all such people to either detransition or die.

    Thereā€™s just such a strange buried seething resentment to it all, but then again this isnā€™t even a discussion about people having nuanced one-on-one conversations about gender, itā€™s a confused imaginary scenario where someone is attempting social forcefem irl via brute force.

    • TotallynotJessica@lemmy.blahaj.zoneM
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      13 hours ago

      This isnā€™t an imaginary scenario. FtM femboys and cis femboys do need to deal with these things. Iā€™ve seen it happen for years, and even as an egg who hatched into a transfem, it always made me uncomfortable. It felt like an external force taking away the decision from people and enforcing new norms. It did not help me accept myself in any way, but it did give me more doubts to deal with.

      There is no reason to do anything but affirm peopleā€™s stated gender. If someone is a trans medicalist gatekeeping other trans people, they are still their stated gender. If they are a troll identifying as an attack helicopter, consistently affirming their facetious identity is a great way to make them lose interest. If you think someone who identifies one way might be better fit by a different identity, an enby who might be binary or vice versa, keep that to yourself. If you somehow do know better than the person, denying will not have actually helped them, but increased the likelihood of them doubling down.

      All of that is to say that toxic egg culture is real and harmful. No identity is a terrible fate, only not having your autonomy doubted by the people who should welcome you. People define their own gender, end of story, end of discussion. No good comes of denying identities.

      • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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        5 hours ago

        Unfortunately I donā€™t think this person is willing or able to listen, or they might even be arguing in bad faith. They seem to believe or are trying to spin the idea that toxic egg culture isnā€™t a thing and people are just trying to put down the idea of helping people who are questioning. Or worse, that itā€™s all just made up terf rhetoric. In my opinion their last two replies in this thread squashed any idea I had that they might be participating in good faith.

      • Lumelore (She/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        13 hours ago

        Yeah calling other people eggs I donā€™t think is ever a good idea, since like you mentioned, whatever someoneā€™s gender is, they are valid, and it is entirely their own decision. I donā€™t entirely agree with the person you replied to because being a femboy is perfectly valid and not at all a ā€œterrible fate,ā€ although as someone who calls their past self an egg, I sympathize with them to a degree because I feel like I canā€™t call my own self an egg. Idk, maybe a new word is needed because of the toxicity associated with the word egg, but Iā€™m unsure that that would actually fix anything.

        • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          12 hours ago

          I think the problem of egg culture is a deeper issue, it stems from the idea that one can make another person come out, or that a personā€™s identity can be ā€œknownā€ by others, even against that personā€™s identification. That last part is where the problem stems, ā€œagainst that personā€™s identificationā€. Until and unless we can get over the idea that one can go against the way a person currently identifies, any new term we come up with to replace egg has the potential to be misused and abused in the same way.

          I understand that people can be in denial and that people can change their minds over time, but that is part of the process. The best one can do is to offer support and discuss the idea of gender to someone who might not understand. Without outright telling them they are wrong or that what theyā€™re doing isnā€™t normal. Some people might say that that isnā€™t enough and that some people need force. But itā€™s their choice, and their life. If someone doesnā€™t want to open their mind or identify differently they have every right to dig in their heels. The idea they donā€™t is where and when it becomes toxic and where and when it largely stops being affirming.

          TL;DR A new term could help, but we have to get over and cease the current pushiness, or it too will become corrupted and abused in the same ways ā€œeggā€ is.

          • Lumelore (She/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            12 hours ago

            I fully agree with you here. Maybe it would be better to try to make it clear that egg is only for self referential use, unless the word egg is too corrupted to fix, in which case a new term is probably needed.

            • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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              11 hours ago

              Iā€™m not entirely sure if it is, it might be, but it also might be fine. It might just be a matter of changing peopleā€™s hearts and minds to think differently and use the word correctly. Which is why I think itā€™s better to try and make it clear itā€™s self-reference only, and that policing and labeling others is not tolerated.

    • Catoblepas@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      10 hours ago

      Someone doesnā€™t have to be doing things as bad as the transphobes to still be doing something that isnā€™t ideal, or something that makes other people uncomfortable in a way that has nothing to do with transphobia. It feels bad for anyone to get told theyā€™re doing gender wrong, even if the person doing it is trying to be helpful.

      It doesnā€™t mean anyone doing that is evil, it just means gender is a messy thing to talk about and understand. People canā€™t always see that what is very affirming and clarifying for them may be constraining for someone else.

      • SecondaryAnnetagonist@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        9 hours ago

        Thatā€™s a fair point of view, but I am still thrown that most people see the word ā€œeggā€ as something outsiders use exclusively to coerce or out people since by the time such discourse reaches me it has devolved into people saying to never even consider the idea of respectfully discussing the idea of transing genders with anyone (rather than being a shorthand for ā€œbefore I realizedā€).

        Anecdotally I reached a stage in figuring things out where I knew what I was but was to batshit terrified to tell anyone, and anyone even considering discussing such a thing around me wouldā€™ve felt like a lifeline bordering on divine intervention. Instead I unintentionally played gender-identity chicken with a whole friend group who believed in the egg prime directive for like 8 months because my whole life is a long stream of sitcom-esque idiot plots.

        • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          5 hours ago

          Outsiders? What are you talking about? People get called eggs within trans communities. Violation of the egg prime directive happens almost exclusively within trans spaces from other trans people. Why is this so hard for you to understand or accept? I and others arenā€™t saying that trans people are evil and ā€œtrying to turn kidsā€ or some dumb shit like that. Weā€™re saying that a misguided or harmful group of trans people are acting in a way that is harmful to the community. Which isnā€™t a new concept might I add, transmedicalists anyone? What about right-wing trans people who fight against and undermine trans rights while trying to vilify other trans people who donā€™t share their beliefs, like actually vilify them, i.e. the groomer rhetoric. And yeah it is hypocritical, and damaging as fuck.

          Do you understand now? Is it clearer now?

    • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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      12 hours ago

      Oftentimes the pushback against it implies that being transfem is such a terrible fate that implying someone might be happier following such a course of action apparently makes you a degenerate groomer somehow just as bad as the transphobes who want all such people to either detransition or die.

      I disagree with this statement. Itā€™s not the idea that being a woman/transfem is a bad thing, itā€™s that the person on the receiving end of egg culture just isnā€™t a woman/transfem. They identify as male and are perfectly comfortable as themselves but are told the way they present is a ā€œsignā€ of being transfem and the way they identify isnā€™t respected. It isnā€™t wrong because being a woman or transfem is somehow insulting, it is wrong because itā€™s misgendering to go against how someone identifies themselves.

      Adding to the fact that some of these people are transmasc, so being told in that case that itā€™s not wrong or insulting to be called a girl stings that much more because they know they themselves are literally a trans man and are being told their presentation is a ā€œsignā€ they are a girl.

      Thereā€™s just such a strange buried seething resentment to it all, but then again this isnā€™t even a discussion about people having nuanced one-on-one conversations about gender, itā€™s a confused imaginary scenario where someone is attempting social forcefem irl via brute force.

      This reads like a bad faith argument, as if you are trying to imply that to question or critique someone elseā€™s gender identification based on their clothing or presentation is somehow acceptable. Or to attempt to debate their gender and ask leading questions is somehow okay. These are not imaginary situations, they are unfortunately quite common in many trans spaces online, and unfortunately in real life too. Maybe you have not seen or experienced the nastiness before, Iā€™m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt there, but it is very much a real problem that GNC people, including transmascs and enbies face, itā€™s not one of those ā€œimaginary cis people problemsā€, and trying to spin it as such is disingenuous and harmful.

      • SecondaryAnnetagonist@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        10 hours ago

        Unfortunately the blowback of such discourse in practice is just people giving me grief for trying to use the word as a shorthand to ā€œme pre-realizationā€ and indirectly calling me a creep if I even mention considering transitioning in any direction in a passive way because even being compared to a trans person causes certain people to damn near flinch reflexively.

        What I am most confused by is people implying that itā€™s immoral to even consider asking someone (irl youā€™d just use your words - have you considered it? - the idea that the word ā€œeggā€ implies that being trans is rigidly prescribed from the outside from some tactless strangers trying to blindly out other strangers rather than two peple who know each other politely asking one-on-one in a respectful conversation is kinda wild to me - am I just confused because I managed to dodge significantly stupider online discourse elsewhere and am instead taking this literally?).

        Also do you think term ā€œeggā€ only applies to people ā€œsuspected of being womenā€?

        • First Majestic Comet@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOP
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          6 hours ago

          Unfortunately the blowback of such discourse in practice is just people giving me grief for trying to use the word as a shorthand to ā€œme pre-realizationā€ and indirectly calling me a creep if I even mention considering transitioning in any direction in a passive way because even being compared to a trans person causes certain people to damn near flinch reflexively.

          With all due respect ā€œJesse what the fuck are you talking about?ā€. No one is talking about your ability to call your past self an egg, and no one is giving you shit for you considering transition yourself. You are getting flack right now because you are denying and attempting to excuse the very real fact that there are people in the community who do not respect the way other people identify, who argue and insist that a person who is gender non-conforming must be whatever gender they present as. The example given was that people say that femboys are transfem or trans girls in denial. But great job trying to poison the well and make it out as if weā€™re attacking you, or that thereā€™s some aggression or hostility towards trans people here.

          What I am most confused by is people implying that itā€™s immoral to even consider asking someone (irl youā€™d just use your words - have you considered it? - the idea that the word ā€œeggā€ implies that being trans is rigidly prescribed from the outside from some tactless strangers trying to blindly out other strangers rather than two peple who know each other politely asking one-on-one in a respectful conversation is kinda wild to me - am I just confused because I managed to dodge significantly stupider online discourse elsewhere and am instead taking this literally?).

          Except having a polite conversation where you talk to a person about gender identity and make them feel comfortable is not what any of us are talking about when we talk about people being called eggs or the egg prime directive, or people breaking the egg prime directive. Someone saying that ā€œitā€™s not cisā€ for someone to dress that way isnā€™t doing that either. It is making a statement about their gender based on gender stereotypes. The idea that the calling people eggs thing is just polite conversation meant to make people feel safe is at best a strawman argument, and at worst is another attempt to poison the well.

          Also do you think term ā€œeggā€ only applies to people ā€œsuspected of being womenā€?

          I just used it here because itā€™s very common. Iā€™ve seen it happen to tomboys people think are transmasc, or enbies. It is also used legitimately, as a past tense referral for a person before they came out or realized themselves. I havenā€™t gone into those as much because they are off-topic, this subject is related to the wrongful use of the term, to refer to other people in the present tense.

    • Lumelore (She/her)@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      14 hours ago

      The whole egg discourse puts a bad taste in my mouth as well. Iā€™ve referred to my past self as an egg and then had someone tell me to stop using that word because itā€™s groomer language. Iā€™ve never violated the egg prime directive and never will, but I like using egg to describe my past self. However, now when I use the term I get worried because I just donā€™t want to deal with people who have a stick up their butt.