- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/37235684
Obviously reporting transphobic comments to a transphobic mod isn’t going to result in any action, so I’m wondering if the admins are going to do anything about it?
(if someone needs an image description, please ask)
Why don’t we just make a trans league so we can just stop talking about this with anyone ever again?
Also, does a person who has gone through male puberty before transition not have at least some advantage in certain areas due to bone structure alone? I understand that trans girls who pre-empt puberty are likely physically equivalent to their cisgendered peers, but I have my reservations about integrating people who transition later in life. If I’m wrong, I would love to see any studies anyone may want to share.
EDIT: I am wrong, thank you flamingembers and southsamurai. I would also like to apologize for the wording of this post. My original thought was that trans women who previously went through male puberty may have an advantage in some areas due to a potential wider skeletal structure in their upper bodies as compared to cisgendered peers. I did let my (unfounded on research!) opinion creep into that too much, and I do understand why that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of anyone who knows better.
The evidence clearly contradicts the thinking that my original post was based upon - there was no area studied where trans women had an advantage. On top of that, it also appears trans women can’t even intake as much oxygen as cis women - which would already offset any size differences even if trans women were bigger and stronger on average (they aren’t).
This isn’t news to anyone educated, but I wanted to edit this comment so that any transphobes upvoting my post due to having the same flavor of ignorance that they do understand that I do not agree with them, and I am not trying to propagate their views.
There aren’t enough trans people to have our own league. Also separate but equal is not an ethical solution.
No, they are not at an advantage https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/rcna148437
You’re right, that is an unrealistic solution. I’ve never been interested in sports, so I admit I didn’t really put much thought into that. I guess, in my mind, trans people in sports is one of the less dire issues we face today. But, I should acknowledge that there are trans people whose life revolves around sports, and I appreciate you framing it the way it is: separate but ‘equal.’ That really adds a stark perspective to it that I admittedly had not considered.
Thank you so much for linking research, I’ll read that right now.
EDIT: I didn’t read the article, I clicked their link to the study and read the abstract and data. So, if I’m reading the data correctly, the only factor measured where trans athletes have an advantage is the slightly higher grip strength of trans women? Just making sure I’m interpreting that correctly. Thank you so much for sending that my way.
It’s worth keeping in mind that the issue was entirely manufactured so that they could turn the public against trans people.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/opinion-the-trans-sports-attacks
That’s good to know, thank you for this!
What a great fucking read. Really helped open my eyes to how this sports issue is used to dehumanize us. I really appreciated how she laid out the logical next steps after a trans sports ban, and how it’s inevitably leveraged to take away more and more of our rights. I’ll definitely be following her articles to keep myself informed.
Side Note: Is that journalist Zoey Zephyr’s wife? I feel like I recognize her face.
Yep, you’re absolutely right!
But isn’t this how sport already is? Do you think gender restrictions should be removed from sport altogether?
I don’t think a trans-only league makes any sense, but I’m just curious about your stance.
Are black people forced to play in their own separate league? Why not?
No they aren’t, but there is a separate women’s league for most sports. So again, I’m wondering if you find that unethical?
What’s your goal here
? I was confused by your statement “separate but equal is not ethical” because it’s what we already do in sports, so I wanted to ask about it. I already stated that I don’t think a separate league for trans people is a good idea, if that’s why you are refusing to answer me.
Why is it unethical to separate sports leagues by race
Because segregation is historically driven by racist motivations such as attempting to prevent different races from interacting.
Why is it ethical to separate sports leagues by gender?
Nope. Male puberty doesn’t cause changes that aren’t mitigated by transition.
Any changes to bone structure that don’t change are the ones that are present in any athlete in a given sport.
I’m not digging through studies for you, because I haven’t gotten a single paycheck from anyone ever for doing so online. That information is out there, and it’s your responsibility to do your due diligence on the matter.
If you don’t know that you’re wrong or right already, by having looked for the information needed to make a credible opinion, maybe hang back a bit, or at least ask better questions.
Maybe some people learn things by asking questions in the right spaces to be corrected intellectually. I’m completely fine with being wrong, that’s why I asked a controversial question here. I don’t need you to provide studies to rethink my opinion, I just figured people in this thread might have some available. Apparently the only thing you have on hand at the moment is snark.
Also you’ll only help educate people if you get paid? What??? This would have been such a good moment to point me toward literally any resources that could help in my research. You didn’t even have to link a study, you could just link a database. You and I both know there are studies funded by special interest groups that are biased against trans people. I never claimed to have a credible opinion, which is why I invited discourse.
Anyway, thanks for your statement. I guess I’ll have to look into this more myself. Just keep in mind that most people, when the burden of research is placed upon them by someone who clearly has knowledge of the subject, will simply say “fuck that” and keep being ignorant.
EDIT: If you check this thread again, I’d like to apologize for my incredulity at your statement. I didn’t realize the full ignorance on display in my original comment at the time, and my response was fueled by that. I acted as though you were being overly snarky, which I no longer believe was the case. I acted as though research was a burden. It’s not, but my point was that I was seeking information socially and assumed someone might have studies on hand, which is what I was looking for, and your response didn’t offer. You did, however, give me the correct information - it was my mistake to act as though it was unfounded due to your unwillingness to provide sources. So, in contradiction to what I said earlier, I did need studies to rethink my opinion. That was completely my mistake, and I should have thought more about what I wanted from this discussion before posting or responding in the first place. You are correct, it is my responsibility to educate myself. I should have used your statement as a jumping off point for my own research, but I was caught up in the one detail of my original post wherein I asked for studies, and because of that I saw your comment as less informational and more snarky. I apologize for misinterpreting your intentions.
I do still believe the uneducated need a helping hand from time to time. My purpose was to reach out for that, not to start a fight, and I apologize for being inflammatory as well.
All that said, I don’t necessarily think it was a bad idea to reveal my ignorance, as you helped inform me, and led to an interaction where someone did link studies that proved me wrong. I understand how I came across, and why you would be unwilling to put in that effort for someone displaying that level of ignorance. It was unfair to insinuate that I’d be having this discussion under my terms - I apologize for that. I’m grateful that flamingembers did step in to meet me on my ground, and strongly believe that in some cases (mine included) using someone’s established mindset and what they’re willing to accept to spark discussion that leads to change is what helps them grow. However, I recognize your attempt to do this in your response and apologize for my unwillingness to connect at the time because I didn’t see how it fit into my original question (which was supposed to be asking for studies, but really just came across as a challenge)
I’m leaving my original response unedited. I hope anyone else reading this can use my original response as an example of how not to clarify your thoughts.
fun fact: your body is an incredibly dynamic system and hormones are the major drivers for those changes. swap the hormones out and the body adjusts to its new normal. when you do this is fairly immaterial.
also ‘later in life’ you mean when adults are playing sports together? oh no… or do you mean professional sports where transgenders currently would be banned regardless because of bigotry? what exactly are we talking about here?
maybe you should leave these opinions to train medical professionals who work with these issues on the regular instead of your gut.
Later in life like, after puberty… I feel like I was pretty clear.
I’m not using my gut, I’m using my eyes and seeing trans athletes that are bigger and wider than cisgender peers, and then asking if that affects anything in certain sports. Nowhere did I state trans women shouldn’t be playing any sport. I posed that as a question, then followed up with my thoughts on the issue and asked for dialogue contradicting my opinion - because I want to be wrong about this! I’m just asking because I thought this would be a good place to ask. Judging by both responses to my comment, it’s apparently more important for me to know I’m wrong than to help me know what’s right.
Are you a trained medical professional?
Na you’re just playing classic tucker carlson. ‘just asking questions’ nonsense. You see the OP literally linked to research that literally answers your questions but you act like no one has provided you with anything and somehow therr is a debate here. But there isnt, there is just a bunch of misinformed and bigots playing off peoples ignorance.
Yes im a trained medical professional. So kindly get bent
I’m not debating anything! I admit I don’t know which is why I was asking for information! I see that OP links to research in the screenshot, but I can’t see any links for me to click in this crosspost OR the original post! I said my opinion and welcomed facts to prove me wrong, and at no point have I tried to argue I’m correct! You’re right, there is no debate, I’m not trying to debate! But I figured someone, maybe even OP, would at least link the studies from the screenshot. Especially since I don’t know what community the discussion originally happened in!
Maybe the wording of my post drew some ire, and for that I apologize. But I sincerely think that having a misinformed opinion is not cause to shame someone, especially if they’re literally asking for information! If you think that all I’m going to do when I see the studies is call them bullshit, that’s fine, I get it. The internet is hostile and there are bad actors everywhere trying to get people to waste time and energy. But are you seriously going to just shit on me for being ignorant and just tell me “uhhh stop it dumbass” without even trying to educate? I get that I have internalized transphobia… kinda comes with the territory of being a rural trans woman. I just thought this would be the fucking space to ask.
That’s nice. Move long Mr. Carlson. ‘welcomed facts to prove me wrong’ says it all. You have enough information from the original image and other comments in this thread to find all of the information you need. Its not our responsibility to educate every asshole carlson running around.
You’ve at this point:
Now its your turn to take personality responsibility for educating yourself. Like probably every person here has done on their own. If you don’t know how to do this at this point in your life, I suggest community adult education classes, they’re generally free and that person is being paid for their time to teach you basic life skills.
I will offer to clarify any medical terminology you run into or specific questions about specific sources you find that are from peer reviewed medical journals.
Again, some people converse to learn. I feel like that’s partially the point of social media - mingling perspectives allowing for growth. You are shitting on me much more than you’re informing me. Thankfully, someone did link me a few studies. Which I read. That’s all I was ever asking for. You’re conveniently ignoring my interaction with flamingembers. Sometimes people do just want to be proven wrong, and aren’t just baiting. The purpose of my original comment was just to invite facts to disprove my opinion. Which I thankfully recieved.
I asked for direct links because I thought this would be a good place to ask. That ended up being true, but not before having to wade through a swamp of snark first.
My point being, it took you just as much effort, maybe more, to shit on me for asking a question the wrong way and having the wrong opinion as it would to just link a fucking study. I’m just supposed to see you call me a bad actor, a bigot, and compare me to Tucker fucking Carlson when I was legitimately just asking for studies (admittedly in a way that made it seem like I wanted a debate, and not a discussion) and say, “huh, I guess they’re right?”
Sports aren’t important to me. Trans people in sports is not something I’ve researched extensively. I stated my opinion based on my perception of the few trans athletes that I’ve seen in top level play, and I was wrong. The one study I’ve been linked did show that in all ways measured except grip strength, trans women are at a disadvantage, and trans men are at a complete disadvantage. I will add too, that I didn’t realize how inseperable the issue is from the rest of life for trans people. I’ve been guided toward Erin in the Morning, who had an excellent article pointing out how trans sports bans are used to justify other erosions of trans rights.
Just as you’re not getting paid to link studies, I’m not getting fucking paid to sit around researching the aspects of being trans that (as I thought at the time) have fuck all to do with how I live my life. I don’t have time to sit and research all day, which is why I thought, “Hey, I’ll ask about this in the thread discussing it, surely someone will have some information for me.” Someone did, thankfully, but the only information you had for me is that you think I’m a fucking asshole.
I understand being averse to the way I phrased my original post, I showed my ignorance and realize what was ignorant about what I said now that I’ve read more sources that disprove what I said. But you can’t just assume ignorance means unwilling to learn. Wanting to learn more is why I posted in the first place. And all you really did was inform me that I was ignorant, and shame me for being ignorant. Hmm, if only there was some way to give ignorant people information. Of course, most of the time that does lead to being baited by bad actors, but you decided I was a bad actor before even presenting any relevant information and seeing what my response was. My opinion and question was related to skeletal structure of post-puberty trans people, and all you said was “hormones change things pretty fast.” Which that, I am aware of, but I’m also aware that hormones sometimes cannot undo what puberty does in the first place. And that’s another reason why I posed the question.
Respectfully, I don’t want you to clarify any terminology for me. What happened to you not thinking it’s worth it to take the time to educate? I welcome anyone that would like to tell me more, but I think you’d much rather call me an idiot for not knowing in the first place.
lol it took me no effort to shit on you. I, in fact, literally answered your questions in my first response fairly respectfully and told you to seek the opinion of trained professionals.
Now fuck off. You are not here to learn. you here to be a bigot. thats why we’re not wasting time educating you. My current series of responses are for other people to learn how to handle bigots running around playing the naive idiot card. They’re not for you.
I explained exactly why I felt your response didn’t address my original question, which indicates that you’re not actually reading my responses. You’re deliberately ignoring my other interactions in this thread to call me a bigot. But I guess there’s bad actors on both sides. Even the other person who let me know I was wrong didn’t spend this much time clashing with me. They just informed me I was wrong and that it wasn’t their job to educate me. And you know, I thought that was an unhelpful response at the time…
I should hope anyone reading this can see the interaction I had with flamingembers where they “wasted time” trying to educate me, and it worked.
It’s extremely disappointing that you’re ignoring my apologies, attempts to understand your side, and, furthermore, the clarifications I added to my original post. You’re offering the type of discourse that keeps people rooted in their beliefs.
Take a page out of Mr. Dixon’s book.