I have said it before, a system is determined by that which is Primary in it. This is Dialectical and Historical Matetialism. If 90% of the economy is public but it has 10% markets, is this Capitalist, or Socialist? What about 50/50? If we ask Marx, some countries were Capitalist even before markets had overtaken 50% of production. This is because Markets were primary in the Capitalist mode of production. In China, markets are not primary, public ownership and planning is.
As for the claim of revisionism, where are you getting the archival evidence that the vast majority were in fact executed? I’d like to see the numbers you found, personally, but moreover you just admitted that not all of them were killed. Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed, you keep moving goal posts to call me a liar without acknowledging that you were just wrong, and willing to accept whatever number you wanted.
As for the purges, many weren’t “traitors” outright. Many were corrupt, criminals, inefficient, etc. That’s why of the millions purged, only a fraction were actually condemned to death, most were just expelled from the party. Some were members of the White Army that were allowed in government until the purges. Many were legitimate fascist infiltrators friendly to the Nazis, who had risen to power in Nazi Germany and were heavily involved with wrecking the Soviet State.
So far, the only “revisionism” seems to be your understanding of the word “frequently” to mean what I assume you interpreted as “overwhelming majority,” and not, you know, often enough to not be insignificant in the greater context. One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible, rather than trying to reach an understanding or consensus. Whenever there can possible be percieved a gray area in my words, you take it to the extreme, which is generally unhelpful.
Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed,
Any million number was referring to the greater Stalinist terror not explicitly the purges. That was my mistake (which is a direct result of you arguing me towards tiredness if i might say).
From the Wikipedia article i initially cited on the graves found:
Between 5 August 1937 and 17 November 1938 the scale of killing reached its apogee. In a series of 12 national operations the NKVD executed at least 680,000 men and women. Original source in Russian That is the documented total: the real figure is almost certainly higher. In preparation for mass murder on such a scale the NKVD People’s Commissar Yezhov instructed his subordinates throughout the Soviet Union to identify areas not far from the major urban centres where thousands of bodies could be quickly concealed. This was described by the late Arseny Roginsky. Also in Russian
One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible,
I don’t always want to do that, you denying the facts leads me to.
You don’t have to argue with me, that’s your choice. Further, I don’t know what you mean by the “Stalinist Terror” specifically, we were talking about the Great Purge itself.
Your quoted text doesn’t contradict me either. They say it is “likely” that more than 680,000 were executed, but there’s nothing confirmed. Again, these figures use the condemnation to death figures, not the total killing figures. For clarity, my stance is that the total number of those killed is in the several hundreds of thousands, but not millions, not that only a few people were killed. Even if all 680,000 were killed, that still fits what I have actually said, you’ve been putting words in my mouth. Moreover, you’ll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:
The claim that Stalin and other Soviet leaders killed millions (Conquest, 1990) also appears to be wildly exaggerated. More recent evidence from the Soviet archives opened up by the anticommunist Yeltsin government indicate that the total number of death sentences (including of both existing prisoners and those outside captivity) over the 1921-1953 interval (covering the period of Stalin’s partial and complete rule) was between 775,866 and 786,098 (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). Given that the archive data originates from anti-Stalin (and even anticommunist) sources, it is extremely unlikely that they underestimate the true number (Thurston, 1996). In addition, the Soviet Union has long admitted to executing at least 12,733 people between 1917 and 1921, mostly during the Foreign Interventionist Civil War of 1918-22, although it is possible that as many as 40,000 more may have been executed unofficially (Andics, 1969).
These data would seem to imply about 800,000 executions. The figure of 800,000 may greatly overestimate the number of actual executions, as it includes many who were sentenced to death but who were not actually caught or who had their sentences reduced (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). In fact, Vinton (1993) has provided evidence indicating that the number of executions was significantly below the number of civilian prisoners sentenced to death in the Soviet Union, with only 7,305 executions in a sample of 11,000 prisoners authorized to be executed in 1940 (or scarcely 600/o ). In addition, most (681,692) of the 780,000 or so death sentences passed under Stalin were issued during the 1937-38 period (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993), when Soviet paranoia about foreign subversion reached its zenith due to a 1936 alliance between Nazi Germany and fascist Japan that was specifically directed against the Soviet Union (Manning, 1993) and due to a public 1936 resolution by a group of influential anti-Stalin foreigners (the Fourth International which was allied with the popular but exiled Russian dissident Leon Trotsky) advocating the overthrow of the Soviet government by illegal means (Glotzer, 1968).
Stalin initially set a cap of 186,500 imprisonments and 72,950 death penalties for a 1937 special operation to combat this threat that was to be carried out by local 3-man tribunals called ''troikas" (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). As the tribunals passed death sentences before the accused had even been arrested, local authorities requested increases in their own quotas (Knight, 1993), and there was an official request in 1938 for a doubling of the amount of prisoner transport that had been initially requisitioned to carry out the original campaign “quotas” of the tribunals (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). However, even if there had been twice as many actual • executions as originally planned, the number would still be less than 150,000. Many of those sentenced by the tribunals may have escaped capture, and many more may have had their death sentence refused or revoked by higher authorities before arrest/execution could take place, especially since Stalin later realized that excesses had been committed in the 1937-38 period, had a number of convictions overturned, and had many of the responsible local leaders punished (Thurston, 1996)."
This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.
I told you, I think it’s highly unlikely that more than 700,000 were killed, and archival evidence supports that number being lower. We unfortunately will likely never know the true number, but in the end this number is far below the 12 million often recited. If all 700,000 truly did die, then that’s within the bounds of what I think happened.
That’s what I mean by you being uncharitable towards me almost intentionally. I never once said that there weren’t excesses or that nobody died, the figure I was arguing against was the “millions” you walked back. I think if you were focused on reaching an understanding, rather than immediately framing me as some entirely unreasonable person that thinks Stalin was a perfect saint free from sin, we would be having much shorter convos.
Either way, you should keep reading Blackshirts, evidently it seems you think it’s good enough to recommend to others, so I think you’ll be very surprised to learn that MLs don’t think the USSR was a perfect wonderland paradise. I honestly think it could have been close by this point had it not fallen, but that’s just dreaming at this point and sadly we have the Russian Federation, and the 7 million people who died due to the re-introduction of Capitalism.
I think if you were focused on reaching an understanding, rather than immediately framing me as some entirely unreasonable person that thinks Stalin was a perfect saint free from sin, we would be having much shorter convos.
I’ll try my best in the future.
evidently it seems you think it’s good enough to recommend to others
Wdym by “think it’s good enough to recommend to others”? I haven’t recommended it to anyone i know. Unless you’re talking about that one thread yesterday. In that case, i do plan to finish it as soon as my exams are done
I appreciate your effort. Genuinely, I do, that’s why I even bother engaging with you, because despite clearly holding anti-AES views, you don’t actually shut out any and all evidence. For what it’s worth, I held similar views to you about a decade ago, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way, we all have our own political journeys and I am older than you (unless you went back to school). I see genuine hope in you becoming a Leftist eventually if you remain open to reading and hearing viewpoints alternative to your current understanding.
As for what you mean, yes, I was referring to that thread. I saw your response while I was making my own.
Further, I am going to go ahead and plug Blowback again. It’s a podcast, so you should be able to listen to it while doing whatever else you’re doing (unless you’re studying, of course). I’ll link the first episode here. If you’re a USian like I am, you owe it to the people of the world the genocidal US Empire has destroyed and slaughtered for profit to take a real look at the hellish sins of the United States.
despite clearly holding anti-AES views, you don’t actually shut out any and all evidence.
Thanks, i try my best to always argue in good faith and remain open-minded. Only if that were the spirit many went into discussions with.
I am older than you (unless you went back to school). I see genuine hope in you becoming a Leftist eventually
Yeah you’re older. I’m 19. Although i don’t know about me being a leftist someday haha. Maybe it’s not entirely far-fetched since it was only a couple years ago i held conservative views, but we’ll see.
Further, I am going to go ahead and plug Blowback again
I’ll be sure to check it out!
USian like I am
I’m not American - I’m British and Nigerian. The former i obtained by birth, but we have our own atrocities as well.
For what it’s worth, I would consider my former self to have been liberal, but with reactionary views shaped by those I grew up around. I don’t think we would have been far apart in terms of views, I didn’t start supporting AES until I truly did the legwork of diving deep into Marxist theory and history. If I wanted a shortcut, I would have read Blackshirts and Reds first, which is why it’s early in the reading list I made.
As for being British and Nigerian, Blowback is still great, and helps explain a more sympathetic view towards Iraq, Cuba, Korea, etc. It has 5 seasons, 1 topic each.
I have said it before, a system is determined by that which is Primary in it. This is Dialectical and Historical Matetialism. If 90% of the economy is public but it has 10% markets, is this Capitalist, or Socialist? What about 50/50? If we ask Marx, some countries were Capitalist even before markets had overtaken 50% of production. This is because Markets were primary in the Capitalist mode of production. In China, markets are not primary, public ownership and planning is.
As for the claim of revisionism, where are you getting the archival evidence that the vast majority were in fact executed? I’d like to see the numbers you found, personally, but moreover you just admitted that not all of them were killed. Just 2 comments ago you were saying millions were killed, you keep moving goal posts to call me a liar without acknowledging that you were just wrong, and willing to accept whatever number you wanted.
As for the purges, many weren’t “traitors” outright. Many were corrupt, criminals, inefficient, etc. That’s why of the millions purged, only a fraction were actually condemned to death, most were just expelled from the party. Some were members of the White Army that were allowed in government until the purges. Many were legitimate fascist infiltrators friendly to the Nazis, who had risen to power in Nazi Germany and were heavily involved with wrecking the Soviet State.
So far, the only “revisionism” seems to be your understanding of the word “frequently” to mean what I assume you interpreted as “overwhelming majority,” and not, you know, often enough to not be insignificant in the greater context. One of the problems you have that gets in the way of your own understanding is a seemingly permanent wish to take my words in the worst way possible, rather than trying to reach an understanding or consensus. Whenever there can possible be percieved a gray area in my words, you take it to the extreme, which is generally unhelpful.
Any million number was referring to the greater Stalinist terror not explicitly the purges. That was my mistake (which is a direct result of you arguing me towards tiredness if i might say).
From the Wikipedia article i initially cited on the graves found:
I don’t always want to do that, you denying the facts leads me to.
You don’t have to argue with me, that’s your choice. Further, I don’t know what you mean by the “Stalinist Terror” specifically, we were talking about the Great Purge itself.
Your quoted text doesn’t contradict me either. They say it is “likely” that more than 680,000 were executed, but there’s nothing confirmed. Again, these figures use the condemnation to death figures, not the total killing figures. For clarity, my stance is that the total number of those killed is in the several hundreds of thousands, but not millions, not that only a few people were killed. Even if all 680,000 were killed, that still fits what I have actually said, you’ve been putting words in my mouth. Moreover, you’ll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:
This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.
Ok, so we agree in the end other than on the point of whether those 700k+ people were killed or not - at least you seem to think they weren’t.
It’s a stalemate.
I told you, I think it’s highly unlikely that more than 700,000 were killed, and archival evidence supports that number being lower. We unfortunately will likely never know the true number, but in the end this number is far below the 12 million often recited. If all 700,000 truly did die, then that’s within the bounds of what I think happened.
That’s what I mean by you being uncharitable towards me almost intentionally. I never once said that there weren’t excesses or that nobody died, the figure I was arguing against was the “millions” you walked back. I think if you were focused on reaching an understanding, rather than immediately framing me as some entirely unreasonable person that thinks Stalin was a perfect saint free from sin, we would be having much shorter convos.
Either way, you should keep reading Blackshirts, evidently it seems you think it’s good enough to recommend to others, so I think you’ll be very surprised to learn that MLs don’t think the USSR was a perfect wonderland paradise. I honestly think it could have been close by this point had it not fallen, but that’s just dreaming at this point and sadly we have the Russian Federation, and the 7 million people who died due to the re-introduction of Capitalism.
I’ll try my best in the future.
Wdym by “think it’s good enough to recommend to others”? I haven’t recommended it to anyone i know. Unless you’re talking about that one thread yesterday. In that case, i do plan to finish it as soon as my exams are done
I appreciate your effort. Genuinely, I do, that’s why I even bother engaging with you, because despite clearly holding anti-AES views, you don’t actually shut out any and all evidence. For what it’s worth, I held similar views to you about a decade ago, and I don’t mean that in a condescending way, we all have our own political journeys and I am older than you (unless you went back to school). I see genuine hope in you becoming a Leftist eventually if you remain open to reading and hearing viewpoints alternative to your current understanding.
As for what you mean, yes, I was referring to that thread. I saw your response while I was making my own.
Further, I am going to go ahead and plug Blowback again. It’s a podcast, so you should be able to listen to it while doing whatever else you’re doing (unless you’re studying, of course). I’ll link the first episode here. If you’re a USian like I am, you owe it to the people of the world the genocidal US Empire has destroyed and slaughtered for profit to take a real look at the hellish sins of the United States.
Thanks, i try my best to always argue in good faith and remain open-minded. Only if that were the spirit many went into discussions with.
Yeah you’re older. I’m 19. Although i don’t know about me being a leftist someday haha. Maybe it’s not entirely far-fetched since it was only a couple years ago i held conservative views, but we’ll see.
I’ll be sure to check it out!
I’m not American - I’m British and Nigerian. The former i obtained by birth, but we have our own atrocities as well.
For what it’s worth, I would consider my former self to have been liberal, but with reactionary views shaped by those I grew up around. I don’t think we would have been far apart in terms of views, I didn’t start supporting AES until I truly did the legwork of diving deep into Marxist theory and history. If I wanted a shortcut, I would have read Blackshirts and Reds first, which is why it’s early in the reading list I made.
As for being British and Nigerian, Blowback is still great, and helps explain a more sympathetic view towards Iraq, Cuba, Korea, etc. It has 5 seasons, 1 topic each.