Mine is they shouldn’t have made the sequel series without George as a consultant.
Mine is they shouldn’t have made the sequel series without
George as a consultanta planMy hot take on the sequels is that the first one was a decent start, and they screwed up the whole plot from there. It had some issues mainly in dropping subplots, probably because what was intended to be followed up wasn’t thanks to different plots and directors.
It really did seem like they were just making stuff up as they went 😂
That’s not a hot take at all.
And plan = “Thrawn Trilogy”.
Or Rogue Squadron. Or hell, basically anything from the extended lore that isn’t about the Vong or the corellia trilogy.
They couldn’t, they already established that Space Whales hard counter Thrawn.
Beat me to it.
Honestly, saw the first one, and that was enough to not see the rest.
It’s the stereotypical “tell the rest of the story” lame crap today.
You want a HOT take on Star Wars?
I love it. All of it. Games, movies, shows. All. Of. It. Sure, I’ve got some critiques, but even the prequels/sequels are a thrill ride. I love Star Wars and I don’t care about some dork on the internet’s opinion on it.
This is the only hot take in this whole thread lol
My lukewarm take is that Star Wars has varied so greatly in quality from product-to-product, that any take that categorizes some of it as bad and some of it as good is a lukewarm, standard take.
Yes, most of these are standard takes.
A true hot take, one that I don’t share but take my upvote for your candor
Ah, the negotiator!
At this point, Star Wars is just a setting. The reason Star Wars shows/movies continue to be so divisive is because people expect the tone/genre of their favorite piece of Star Wars content.
For example, expecting to like Acolyte because you liked Rogue One is ridiculous. They have almost nothing in common. You wouldn’t expect to like Dr Strange because you liked Dunkirk.
Just because it has a Star Wars brand on it doesn’t mean it will be anything like other things with the Star Wars brand. Expecting that will lead to disappointment.
Just because it has a Star Wars brand on it doesn’t mean it will be anything like other things with the Star Wars brand.
I’m sorry, that’s insane.
The original trilogy was awesome because George Lucas did not have full creative control. The editors (Paul Hirsch, Marcia Lucas and Richard Chew) prevented a new hope from being a complete dumpster fire. The prequels had too much George Lucas, and the sequels had too much … I dunno? Decisions by managers or something?
Anyway it seems The Mandalorian was awesome because it was a passion project by true OT fans. The franchise needs to wait for that type of project instead of just green lighting half hearted crap by folks trying to extract value out of star wars.
Great take but the Mandalorian was trash
I know it’s not a hot take but I’ll rant.
who the hell had to make Rey a Palpatine and Palpatine not die. that wasn’t epic, that was dumb af.
Darth jar jar would have been wayyy more compelling, funny, etc.
sometimes dead is bettah.
they could have gone a different route with snoke. he was the only compelling new guy and they made him the old guy. bahhh
I think they fucked up by wanting to give every movie to different directors, so in the second one the new director killed off Snoke. Then JJ Abrams somehow returned and probably had a story that required Snoke, but he was dead, so now Palpatine needs to be back.
Could have just made Snoke be the guy cloning himself instead of Palpatine. 🤷 It would have made just as much sense.
The shouldn’t have made a sequel trilogy without coming out with a plan
That is the ice-coldest of takes lmao
Hot take? Obi-Wan doesn’t need to be on the high ground, the high ground just needs to exist within the battle;
Obi-Wan knows that when he has the low ground, he really has the high ground, from a certain point of view; see Diagram A.
Look at his battle record:
Maul: Has low ground, wins Example A
Dooku: No high ground, loses
Dooku rematch: No high ground, loses Example B.
Greivous: Has low ground, wins Example C
Vader: Has high ground, wins
Vader rematch: No high ground, loses
Obi-Wan with the high/low ground is canonically the most powerful Jedi. This is fact. Had Yoda not denied his request to battle The Senate with typical Jedi arrogance, Obi-Wan could have defeated Palpatine in the Senate building, which housed a variety of different altitudes; this was designed so that the Chancellor could always have the moral high ground in political debates. But Obi-wan didn’t fight The Senate, and Yoda soon learned that you can’t cleave the Sheev in a normal 1v1. It took the Tusken Raiders years of conflict against Old Ben Kenobi to grasp his superiority in terrain advantage, as you see them visibly flee in ANH when they realize he holds the low (inverse-high) ground; this was the optimal strategy against a near-invincible opponent.
Yoda is shorter than virtually every other fighter, which gives him a permanent low-ground disadvantage; however, his saber-fighting style utilizes a flipping-heavy technique in order to negate this weakness for a temporary window. You’ll notice that, after falling from the central podium in The Senate’s building, he immediately retreats upon realizing he is on the lowest ground. You’ll also notice that, while training Luke, he rides on him like a mount, to gain the intellectual high ground and accelerate Luke’s training. Example D . Obi-Wan’s defensive Form III lightsaber style synergizes with his careful military maneuvers; as he only strikes when prepared, he can always hold the strategic high ground. (The business on Cato Neimodia doesn’t count.) You’ll come to realize that this is why Commander Cody’s artillery strike failed against Obi-Wan, when hundreds of Jedi were killed in similar attacks. Cody failed to grasp the strategic situation, as the Jedi Master’s elevation was superior to his by hundreds of meters, making him virtually unkillable. (You’ll notice that all the Jedi killed in Order 66 were on level ground with the clones, thereby assuring their demise.) Had Cody taken his time and engaged the Jedi on even terrain, he would have succeeded. Obi-Wan subsequently retreated under the surface of the lake, so that he could maintain the topographical low/high ground. This is why Obi-Wan is so willing to fight against impossible odds to the point where he thrusts himself in immediate danger; when your probability of victory is 1-to-10, you have the statistical (and therefore strategic) low ground, a numerical advantage when you use your point of view to flip the value to 10/1 . Almost losing is, in Obi-Wan’s case, certain victory. (See Example E). In ANH, Vader proves his newfound mastery by engaging Obi on perfectly even ground. However, Obi-Wan intentionally sacrifices himself on the Death Star, so that he could train Luke from a higher plane of existence, thereby giving him the metaphysical high ground Example G.
Why was Vader so invested in the construction and maintenance of the Death Star? Because he knows Obi-wan can’t have the high ground if there’s no ground left. Image A. As seen through the events of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was known to be on friendly terms with Senator Organa, whose homeworld held large quantities of mountainous terrain, the perfect habitat for a Jedi Master. Grand Moff Tarkin was already in position to destroy Alderaan as a first target, as the distance from Scarif to Alderaan was too vast to reach between the escape and recapture of the Tantive IV, even at 1.0 lightspeed. Alderaan had been the initial target all along, as Obi-Wan with the high ground was the primary threat to the Death Star. How? Because a moon-sized space station would have some form of gravitational pull, thereby negating Obi-Wan’s zero-gravity weakness; Obi-Wan with the perpetual high-ground in a low-orbit starfighter would easily be able to fire proton torpedoes through a ventilation shaft, although the Empire was uncertain of the specific weakness of the Death Star planted by Galen Erso (who was a good friend).
A common misconception is the idea of a ‘prostrate position’ version of the high ground, wherein Obi-Wan lies flat on his back, giving him tactical superiority from his point of view. However, this strategy is futile, as for the high ground to come into effect, there must be a differential between parties on both the x-axis and y-axis to a moderately significant variation from both absolutes (Angles only a Sith would deal in). For Obi-Wan’s high ground powers to be in full effect, he must stand between 15 and 75 degrees (π/12 to 5π/12 radians) diagonal from his opponent(s) on any quadrant of the area circle; this has been dubbed the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. (Diagram B). The total effect for conventional high ground advantage can be calculated via the MetaComm Equation, or f(x) = lim 0→x π/12 | 7π/12 5π/12 | 11π/12 Ʃ(x) (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) + (log10Δ)) * Φ
‘x’ refers to the angle of contact between the two parties on, with advantage being based purely on position on the Y-axis, as the vast majrity of force users base their perception on elevation rather than spacial relativity. Δ refers to distance (measured in meters) between units on the hypotenuse; distance has some effect in tactical advantage during typical skirmishes, but accurate values for Δ based on equipped weapon are not finalized. The power of gravitational force has great effect on the high ground; too weak, and the high ground holds no traction; too strong and the ground becomes the real enemy. Experimentation has proven that the high ground typically holds significant value between .8 and 1.4 β (Earth Gravity) with maximum impact standing roughly equal to 1.05. Pressure is equally important, as it is a surrounding force attached to gravity (the high ground has famously low impact in aquatic environments). Pressure(λ) is measured in pounds per square inch (psi), to be used as a gavity multiplier (or division if pressure is sub-atmospheric; a pressure of 0 would theoretically negate the high ground, due to the high ground not existing without gravity. This is merely speculation, however, as the gravity value still exists, thereby defining the high and low grounds). Φ (Surrounding Force) is a variable defined as β * 2.2λ , with no metric value assigned due to its singular application in the MetaComm equations.
In situations regarding Obi-Wan and his relativistic point of view, you must substitute the Quadrilateral MetaComm Equation (the Jedi Master function), f(x) = lim 0→x minmaxƩ (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) ) * (1.2)Φ [min = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + π/12 ), max = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + 5π/12 ]. The viable Φ field is expanded, as Obi-Wan has taken advantage of the high ground in so many different environments that he simply uses it more efficiently, and the min/max values apply due to his multidimensional point of view, evidenced by the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. Additionally, the distance factor does not affect Obi-Wan, as spacetime can be perspectively compressed, giving him the ideal Δ value from his point of reference.
In conclusion, Obi-Wan abuses spatial relativity and Taoist doctrine in order to always invoke his high-ground powers. To properly analyze the strategic genius of Kenobi, one must hold advanced knowledge in Philosophy, Mathematics, and Calculus-based Physics, and be able to integrate these topics together. The impact of research in Obi-Wan’s mastery of the high ground ranges from military purposes to spiritual nirvana, although progress moves slowly (but this is actually a benefit, as it gives academia plenty of opportunities to publish studies, thereby giving us the scholastic high ground.) Most importantly, if you find yourself standing on the low ground- don’t try it.
Funny long text, but the highground thing makes sense. Maul was arrogant and either forgot about the other saber or was so confident he didn’t care. Anakin was arrogant thinking “I’ll use the same trick he did when fighting Maul, and I will win”.
The entire thing is about underestimating your opponent and thinking “I have the advantage, not him”.
In either case, he lost the strategical high ground. No good strategist is that arrogant (BTW genius move by Qui Gon, winning the metaphysical high ground and making the enemy lose the strategical high ground) or forgets about the locations of suspicious pitfalls or enemy weapons
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise.
In my thesis, I will…
Wait what’s happening
Depending on which school of thought you adhere to, this could take anywhere between 3 hours or the heath death of the universe
Be aware tho, some people have suspiciously been falling over windows after the thesis statement introduction and we still don’t know why, but we are doing our best to investigate
Patton Oswalt Parks and Rec speech sequel just dropped
Can you explain the math of the Millenium Falcon’s Kessel run record next?
To tell any other story in the Star Wars universe, you must first retcon the Original Trilogy.
See, the Original Trilogy established that the “dark side” was a temptation for every Jedi. Like cocaine or meth for modern humans: addictive poison that gives a temporary rush of power.
That’s great for the whole spiritual, mystic, two-wolves-within-you conflict Luke went through. His victory was overcoming his shortcomings in the form of fear and anger.
But it’s actually terrible for any story made afterwards.
On the one hand, you can’t now make a story where, “maybe the Jedi were excessively stoic.” without also inadvertently making the argument that Luke was maybe… wrong?.. to conquer his emotions? It undermines Luke’s conflict.
On the other hand, you also can’t make the Dark Side totally evil without flattening Vader’s character. When Luke loses himself to fear in Episode 5 and to anger in Episode 6, he proves that the Dark Side doesn’t sink its teeth into you and control you permanently after a single moment of weakness. Even after losing yourself to the Dark Side, you can still observe how it is hurting your loved ones and then choose to pull yourself out of it, conquering your fear and anger in order to protect them. Exactly as Luke does for Vader, and exactly as Vader does immediately after for Luke.
Which means Anakin was just… one-dimensional up until that point. Weak. Too simple to be a protagonist. He wakes up to find he’s killed Padme, and yet still doesn’t turn his life around and learn to fight the temptation of the Dark Side? He hunts down and kills Jedi who had nothing to do with his fall, and yet never looks into their eyes to realize he’s fallen?
No matter how you look at it, it just… doesn’t work.
That’s why the prequels retconned the Jedi into something morally ambiguous. And why the sequels retconned them into a past that needed killing. It’s why the Clone Wars animated series turned the Jedi into a bureaucratically anti-emotion order. And why a lot of video games added lore where the Jedi actually committed genocide against the Sith. It’s also why pretty much none of these other media talk about the Dark Side in the same tone as the OT.
The second the OT ended, the Dark Side could no be longer a “temptation”. It had to became a faction. An unjustly vilified piece of humanity. An ethnic group.
Because you can’t have a “dark side” and have complicated, nuanced characters and extensive world-building: either A) the world will fall apart, B) the characters will be woefully inconsistent, or C) all of the above.
So every, single time you want to make new Star Wars media, you have to retcon the “Dark Side” essentially out of existence.
The main issue with the Force is that no one ever defined how it and the Dark Side work.
Not that midichlorian bullshit, but an explanation of why the Dark Side is powerful.
There are sort of fan theories as to how it works, but as you pointed out, those are undercut by the lack of consistency.
The original trilogy sort of hints at a workable mechanism.
First is the Light Side. You are borrowing power from the universe to do things. It’s not fast, but it is powerful.
Then the Dark Side, you are not asking. You’re demanding. You’re pulling more power faster than the universe can support. This is why hatred and fear lead to the Dark, because if your emotions are heightened you’re less likely to ask.
The Dark Side should also be corrosive to your own body.
Vader’s line that he was more machine than man. It should not have been a single injury on a lava planet, but a slow decay as he literally pulled the life out of his own body to fuel his power.
Palpatine should have been slowly decaying. Not one fight with reflected lightning.
But that’s the prequel problem. People can’t leave shit alone and have to explain every little detail, even if years are meant to go by between the prequel and the original.
Star Wars has been constantly retconning itself, from the beginning.
The first film was not really produced as “Episode IV”, it was “Star Wars”, a standalone film. It was a movie about a farmer orphan who goes on a swashbuckling space adventure with laser swords and space wizards. The good guys are unambiguously good, the bad guys are just bad guys. Everything is pretty much just as it seems, no secretly alive people, no secretly related people. Lucas may have had nebulous plans/hopes for follow ons, but they weren’t baked and the overall concept is standalone.
Then ESB came along and retconned the Skywalker family, and produced cliffhangers knowing there’d be a third film. However, I’m pretty certain that “there is another Skywalker” didn’t specifically have Leia in mind at the time, mainly because of how it’s handled in the follow up.
Then ROTJ came along, and that little tease about ‘there is another Skywalker?’ just a kind of casual “oh yeah, that’s Leia, and she’s your sister, and we are going to do absolutely nothing serious with that, just consider the matter closed even though they were clearly setting up for… something with that”.
A lot of things in the franchise have this feel. Like “Rei’s provenance is mysterious and significant” swinging in the next film to “the parents are nobody, parents don’t matter” and then swinging again in the last of that set of three to “just kidding, her provenance is very significant”.
There’s a massive amount of content created between the OT and the prequels. Most of it was pretty consistent.
“disney trilogy bad” is a cold take. its not a hot take if every nerd on the planet agrees.
anyways the last jedi is the only good movie in the sequel trilogy. the people who didnt like it would rather watch a correct movie than a good one.
Star Wars is just a formulaic fantasy story with a sci-fi coat of paint on it. The original trilogy was groundbreaking because of the special effects, and the story was entertaining enough to not distract from that. The other six films in the main storyline bring nothing new to the table, and are thus boring cashgrabs.
Thank you. I would even argue that Return of the Jedi wasn’t great either. I mean sure, it was beautiful and the Moon of Endor with its giant trees looked amazing, but the plot was mostly a rehash of the original (another Death Star? Really?) plus silly Ewok shenanigans that made the empire into a total joke.
Good point, that was the beginning of the decline already.
Those speeder bike scenes, though. >chef’s kiss< The rest of the film could’ve been Han Solo throwing up into his helmet and I still would’ve watched it.
The speeder scenes rocked, the few times I got to play the game on that in an arcade it was definitely closer to actually riding at death defying speeds in a semi open forest area, and it wasn’t a quarter game either if I recall.
The score with the final lightsaber scene makes it great as well though in my books. Without the same music it wouldn’t have worked nearly as well…though that’s probably the same for a lot of the scenes. As great as the movie is I can still just listen to the music on its own, used to even on vinyl back in the day, Dad’s soundtrack and my fisher price record player lol.
Should have been Wookiee ragings instead of Ewok shenanigans.
The prequels should have started with the Clone Wars, covering more of Anakin and Obi-Wan’s relationship, with an occasional flashback to the earlier Anakin to fill in his past. Being a fan from the early years, I didn’t like the prequels that much initially, but the story grew on me after watching them a few more times later along with fan commentary over the years. What I do still think they suffer from is making Anakin’s fall too sudden, and if we got a better sense of how much he and Obi-Wan were brothers in spirit, the eventual fall would mean more. There would also be more room to develop the friction he observes with the Jedi Council, maybe even take things to a new level in why they don’t let him progress. I guess I basically see TPM as a wasted first part to better establish his character.
Watching the animated Clone Wars series makes the gap between 2 and 3 more palatable. You see Anakin grow in the force, but also see the darkness simmering. It also shows the cracks in the Jedi order and lays the groundwork for doubt in their unimpeachable wisdom.
Like, if you just watch the movies, Yoda is basically Muppet Jesus. Anakin seems like a petulant child refusing to eat his vegetables and jumps right to murdering children. If you watch the series, it colors in all the shades of gray.
Luke Skywalker’s story is a retelling of Nuada Airgetlám, the first king of the Tuatha de Dannan, in a sci-fi fantasy setting.
Because there is a cultural Zeitgeist about this even if it is not well known, it had a better well of mythology to pull from and therefore it had more impact than the sequels and prequels which were repulled from the saga of Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy.
I think the lack of depth for all of the movies since the original trilogy come from the fact that they do not tap into any other sources than their own source, leaving them all feeling hollow and sterile compared to the original.
Who
He was also known as Llew Silverhand.
Again, who?
Search engines are your friend. The information is out there Wikipedia has a lot of it.
No, I don’t care enough to look up and read an article some rando on Lemmy thinks is connected to Star Wars. You’re the one that brought it up; in a normal conversation it would be your responsibility to explain a bit.
Sucks to suck. It’s interesting and too much to include as a simple reply.
Before I begin - lightsabers are an awesome fantasy weapon and I would love to have one.
Lightsabers are a big reason that Star Wars is garbage.
Hardly any lightsaber fights in the OT, used by all of three people (4 if you count Han, which I don’t). Once the prequel trilogy was made and special effects were cheaper and easier, lightsabers everywhere, and instead of a lightsaber fight being an old fashioned samurai duel where the story and the fight are enhancing each other, now it’s just a spectacle. Has it been more than fifteen minutes since we saw a lightsaber? FSSH, vwoom.
Andor is regarded as one of the better pieces of Star Wars media - no lightsabers, no Jedi, just people versus the machine of the Empire.
Mandalorian S1 was straight fire. Then they introduced the Darksaber. Now nobody likes Mando anymore.
I’m not out to yuck anyone’s yum. You can like bad movies, or movies that are big tentpole spectacles but aren’t ever going to engage with you mentally. I went and saw Episode IX in theaters opening night and it was as entertaining as Hobbs and Shaw. My brain didn’t get anything out of it and it was good to see Palpatine again because he was the only one in the movie that felt like a real person with, you know, motivation and stuff. But I left the theater and I don’t really think about it (except for times like now) because it didn’t engage with me mentally. There was nothing there.
Just lightsabers.
Endless lightsabers.
I’m not crazy about all the callbacks and remember-mes either (looking at you Rogue One, Boba Fett, Solo, etc), but that’s a different rant.
I agree. It also kind of ruins how special and awe-inspiring that lightsaber seemed in the OT. It was like a sacred relic Obi-Wan had taken care of all these years. And then Darth Vader had one! Wow! It also showed his devotion to this “ancient religion” that the generals made fun of him for.
Continuing this take. From a storytelling point of view, they should’ve made it so that having a lightsaber was extremely difficult, the defining feat of a master Jedi knight. Something that padawans trained to use eventually but was an actually really hard, life threatening even, object to create. Crystals should’ve been an statistical impossibility, involve a pilgrimage and ceremony, you’d have to be a keen user of the force, train your sensibility to it, master the skill of manipulating life and matter through the force to construct it. Sabers had to be relics, with names, history and mythology. Handed from master to padawan when they became knights through the ages. Further symbolizing the master-apprentice relationship. Thus there can’t be any more apprentices than there are masters. Sith would have to kill Jedis and steal them, corrupting the sabers.
But Lucas was a meh world builder anyways, so whatever.
Mine was going to be a step further. Too many Jedi and Sith. If you want to keep the force, sure, but do something new. The Witches of Dathomir are the only real new thing with the force since the first movie. You can count Bendu and the Mortis Gods, but they were very minimal. It seems like only Filoni wants to expand the universe.
Hell, I think Season 1 of Star Wars Visions had every episode about the Jedi/Sith, it wasn’t until season 2 that they started breaking out of it.
The Star Wars universe is not interesting enough for all the TV show and movies being made. George Lucas is not Tolkien and the world building was fine enough for the original trilogy, but it’s simply too boring for more content. Tolkiens work gets more interesting as you learn more about the details. Star Wars is the opposite. The more information you get the less interesting it is.
Also the Jedis are just cops/soldiers. They are not inherently good.
I would say the 60 year period that all the movies occupy are not interesting enough for more content. Similarly to LOTR there are plenty of other time periods in which good content could be made but that makes it harder for Disney to cash in on familiar characters so they don’t pursue those options.
That’s more or less my take too. The world of the Star Wars universe feels huge and expansive, but in reality by the end of the original trilogy they had basically told all the interesting stories that were to be had about it. And even then, they were starting to run out of material for Return of the Jedi. They tried with the prequels, but as you say it mostly fell flat and ended up boring. The sequels started off more or less rehashing the original trilogy so they were at least entertaining, but that wasn’t enough for three movies and it turned into an absolute mess by the end.
The only good thing that came out of the prequels was the pod racing game on the Nintendo 64.
Now THIS is podracing!
