The Hutu’s used the term “cockroaches” to dehumanize. The Nazi’s used “rats”. But at least those are living creatures. But “a shield”, calling a human being a shield, as if they’re an inanimate object meant to be struck, as if they’re a nuisance that you’re meant to get through to hit your target? Calling these civilians “human shields” is a new low for dehumanizing language, and Israel defenders don’t realize what kind of monster everyone else sees them as. So wild that it’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture, fucking terrifying.
It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it’s a legitimate interpretation of reality.
It’s not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.
My gut reaction is to say - I don’t know, if murder isn’t okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?
When people assign blame only on one side, they’re encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the “Free Palestine!!!” and “Antisemitism!!!” camps.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn’t a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is “pro-Israeli”?
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed. Does that mean everyone in Gaza now has the right to do what ever the hell they want to Israel? Since the IDF has killed way more civilians then the attack did.
The reason why people are focusing on one side is because one side killed ~1200 while the other has killed ~44,000. It’s like being a victim of a driveby shooting on 9/11 and complaining “Why is everyone only focusing on the Twin Towers?” The problem with pro-Israel supporters is that they somehow can’t seeem to tell the difference between 1200 and 44,000, it’s almost as if the 44,000 doesn’t matter because they’re Palestinian, and the 1200 matters more because they’re Israeli. If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas, but that isn’t the case is it?
But wait for it, I can see the Hasbara talking point incoming - “Those are Hamas numbers.” Well the 1200 is Israeli numbers, and everyone now realizes their numbers are lest trustful, because they’re not the ones lying to the world and blocking independent investigative journalism. If you believe Israel is telling the truth, why not let in independent investigation?
Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.
Anyway, you’re saying it’s a numbers game? Let’s say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying “Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression”?
If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas
Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of “antisemitism” - I’m pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).
“But these other conflicts are okay, why can’t Israel do one?” I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts, where neither has 2 million people in a giant open air concentration camp being starved of food, water, electricty, sanitation, and then getting bombed by US/UK sold weapons. Yes those conflicts are terrible, the Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that as the Lancet reckons Gaza is facing at least 186,000 deaths - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext - The problem is there can’t be an accurate count because Israel won’t let independent investigators in, also unlike the other conflicts you mentioned where independent investigations ARE allowed in. The fact that you’d point out these other conflicts, only to compare Israel to them as being MORE dishonest, doesn’t help Israels cause or your own. No matter what you say, you won’t convince us to accept genocide when it’s happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
No matter what you say, you won’t convince us to accept genocide when it’s happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
Oh, OK, thanks, that was genuinely helpful. If I understood correctly, you think I’m trying to convince you that “Israel = good”, so you mentally add “and that’s why Israel is in the right” after what I said, and are replying to that instead of what I actually said. I’m absolutely not trying to convince anyone Israel is in the right here, or that they aren’t committing genocide. Not saying I agree or disagree with you on the subject, just saying that’s not what I’m talking about. This started out as me pointing out that the reason people are saying Hamas are using civilians as human shields is because that’s what’s they’re doing. Now I’m trying to understand why people focus so much on Gaza and are giving Hamas a free pass for what’s going on there.
I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts
It wasn’t a comparison. I took the criteria you gave (number of casualties) and applied it to other situations. Which seemed to be productive because now you’ve given me new criteria. The only one that’s unique is western support. I get that - as (probably?) a citizen of a western country, you don’t want your tax money financing genocide. But that’s more a criticism against your government, and, more importantly to my interest in the conversation, it doesn’t explain the visceral hate people seem to have towards Israel in particular.
Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that
That’s what I’m asking - why do you “just want Gaza to not top that” and don’t seem to care that much about what’s going on Sudan? (I’m talking about the discourse among the, and I’m hoping I’m using the correct term, progressive left).
The problem is there can’t be an accurate count because Israel won’t let independent investigators in
According to your own source, there can’t be an accurate account because “Collecting data is becoming increasingly difficult for the Gaza Health Ministry due to the destruction of much of the infrastructure.”
The Hutu’s used the term “cockroaches” to dehumanize. The Nazi’s used “rats”. But at least those are living creatures. But “a shield”, calling a human being a shield, as if they’re an inanimate object meant to be struck, as if they’re a nuisance that you’re meant to get through to hit your target? Calling these civilians “human shields” is a new low for dehumanizing language, and Israel defenders don’t realize what kind of monster everyone else sees them as. So wild that it’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture, fucking terrifying.
It’s considered acceptable language by mainstream culture because it’s a legitimate interpretation of reality.
It’s not reasonable to say Jews are literally rats. It is a reasonable to say civilian Gazans are used as a shield by Hamas. What is dehumanizing, sometime literally, is using people as shields.
I think it’s more dehumanizing to be the one who kills those people. What the hell is wrong with people? Is murder suddenly okay then?
My gut reaction is to say - I don’t know, if murder isn’t okay, how come I only see people here criticizing Israel and not Hamas or Hezbollah?
When people assign blame only on one side, they’re encouraging the other side to do more bad things. This applies to both the “Free Palestine!!!” and “Antisemitism!!!” camps.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that the reason people are saying that Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields isn’t a Hasbarah plot to dehumanize Palestinians, but because Hamas are using Palestinians as human shields. Could you explain why this seems to be controversial? Do people not agree that Hamas are using human shields, or do they think that pointing any criticism at anyone Palestinian is “pro-Israeli”?
Well people say Israel is in the right because they had people killed. Does that mean everyone in Gaza now has the right to do what ever the hell they want to Israel? Since the IDF has killed way more civilians then the attack did.
And those people would be wrong. That doesn’t contradict anything I said.
The reason why people are focusing on one side is because one side killed ~1200 while the other has killed ~44,000. It’s like being a victim of a driveby shooting on 9/11 and complaining “Why is everyone only focusing on the Twin Towers?” The problem with pro-Israel supporters is that they somehow can’t seeem to tell the difference between 1200 and 44,000, it’s almost as if the 44,000 doesn’t matter because they’re Palestinian, and the 1200 matters more because they’re Israeli. If Israel killed 1200 and then Hamas returned by killing 44,000, we’d be focusing on Hamas, but that isn’t the case is it?
But wait for it, I can see the Hasbara talking point incoming - “Those are Hamas numbers.” Well the 1200 is Israeli numbers, and everyone now realizes their numbers are lest trustful, because they’re not the ones lying to the world and blocking independent investigative journalism. If you believe Israel is telling the truth, why not let in independent investigation?
Actually, 44,000 is about right for the IDF estimations.
Anyway, you’re saying it’s a numbers game? Let’s say Israel were to round up 1,199 random Gazans and shoot them in the street, people would be saying “Well, Israel killed less people, so Hamas should stop their aggression”?
Sorry, but I doubt that. Right now there are at least two other major conflicts, each with more casualties (the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Sudanese civil war), yet the interest in Lemmy and like minded places is like that meme with the drowning kid and the skeleton (inb4 someone accuses me of “antisemitism” - I’m pointing out that Israel is singled out, not accusing anyone of anything).
“But these other conflicts are okay, why can’t Israel do one?” I fail to see the comparison with these other conflicts, where neither has 2 million people in a giant open air concentration camp being starved of food, water, electricty, sanitation, and then getting bombed by US/UK sold weapons. Yes those conflicts are terrible, the Sudanese civil war is terrible with over 60,000 deaths so far, we just want Gaza to not top that as the Lancet reckons Gaza is facing at least 186,000 deaths - https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext - The problem is there can’t be an accurate count because Israel won’t let independent investigators in, also unlike the other conflicts you mentioned where independent investigations ARE allowed in. The fact that you’d point out these other conflicts, only to compare Israel to them as being MORE dishonest, doesn’t help Israels cause or your own. No matter what you say, you won’t convince us to accept genocide when it’s happening to Palestinians or anyone else.
Oh, OK, thanks, that was genuinely helpful. If I understood correctly, you think I’m trying to convince you that “Israel = good”, so you mentally add “and that’s why Israel is in the right” after what I said, and are replying to that instead of what I actually said. I’m absolutely not trying to convince anyone Israel is in the right here, or that they aren’t committing genocide. Not saying I agree or disagree with you on the subject, just saying that’s not what I’m talking about. This started out as me pointing out that the reason people are saying Hamas are using civilians as human shields is because that’s what’s they’re doing. Now I’m trying to understand why people focus so much on Gaza and are giving Hamas a free pass for what’s going on there.
It wasn’t a comparison. I took the criteria you gave (number of casualties) and applied it to other situations. Which seemed to be productive because now you’ve given me new criteria. The only one that’s unique is western support. I get that - as (probably?) a citizen of a western country, you don’t want your tax money financing genocide. But that’s more a criticism against your government, and, more importantly to my interest in the conversation, it doesn’t explain the visceral hate people seem to have towards Israel in particular.
That’s what I’m asking - why do you “just want Gaza to not top that” and don’t seem to care that much about what’s going on Sudan? (I’m talking about the discourse among the, and I’m hoping I’m using the correct term, progressive left).
According to your own source, there can’t be an accurate account because “Collecting data is becoming increasingly difficult for the Gaza Health Ministry due to the destruction of much of the infrastructure.”