• Jackthelad@lemmy.world
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    19 hours ago

    war mongering state.

    Lol. Remind me what the trigger was for this current conflict?

    Also, the reference to Israel being an “apartheid state” is the most ludicrous statement and anyone who expressed it can be safely ignored.

    • Sundial@lemm.ee
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      11 hours ago

      Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians is well documented. The genocide and apartheid labels are well founded with ample evidence.

      Amnesty Report

      Human Rights Watch Report

      B’TSelem Report with quick Explainer

      You are completely wrong about the history of the conflict. You are also conflating Zionism with Judaism, which are 2 very different things. Israel has never represented all Jewish people and never will, nor are it’s actions done to benefit all Jewish people. The conflation is itself antisemitic. Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized (see 29:01) by Zionism during its history.

      Origins of Zionism

      Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.

      Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.

      That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.

      Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.

      Quote

      Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

      The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

      An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

      Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid

      Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

      This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

      The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

      Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

      While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

      The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

      The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

      Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing

      Peace Process and Solution

      Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

      How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

      ‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

      One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

      Historian Works on the History
    • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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      19 hours ago

      Also, the reference to Israel being an “apartheid state” is the most ludicrous statement and anyone who expressed it can be safely ignored.

      Well I’d love to hear the argument that tries to back this statement up.

      • Jackthelad@lemmy.world
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        19 hours ago

        I’m still waiting for evidence of this supposed “apartheid” that people keep going on about.

        Before October 7th, Palestinians would regularly be welcomed across the border to live and work in Israel if they so wished. Just that simple fact blows the “apartheid” or “prison state” arguments out.

        Like genocide, oppression is another thing Israel aren’t very good at.

        • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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          18 hours ago

          I’m still waiting for evidence of this supposed “apartheid” that people keep going on about.

          It has been evidenced and been in discourse widely and long enough to have its own wikipedia entry. Human rights organizations like Amnesty International have definitely made the case. What evidence are you waiting for?

        • Grimy@lemmy.world
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          18 hours ago

          welcomed across the border

          In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn’t have to ask and there wouldn’t be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It’s text book apartheid.

          Just look up the marriage laws in Israel.

          *Edit because I was being rude.

          • GarlicToast@programming.dev
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            16 hours ago

            The border isn’t based on religion. Gaza strip is not part of Israel.

            The reason it’s 99% Muslims is because they murdered everyone else.

            If you want to cross between countries you have to go through a border check. Like I can’t just go visit the USA without getting visa first.

            • Grimy@lemmy.world
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              16 hours ago

              Although I think Palestine should be an independant country, if it was not part of the apartheid state of israel, they would have full control over their own borders.

              It is not the same as a border check specifically since it’s part of the same country, hence why Israel is an apartheid state.

              You both are really close to understanding the problem here, you just have to dig a bit deeper.

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_freedom_of_movement#:~:text=Israel enforces restrictions on the,usage of roads by Palestinians.

              Read this whole article, and actually read it for real, don’t skim it and pretend. It’s insane to compare it to any kind of international border because it simply isn’t.

              • GarlicToast@programming.dev
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                15 hours ago

                Gaza strip was part of Egypt till the six days war. Egypt refused to take it back. Israel refused to pass law expending their border to include Gaza strip and in 2005 made it illegal for their citizens be stay there.

                What in this chain of events makes you think they are the same country?

                • Grimy@lemmy.world
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                  15 hours ago

                  Despite the Israeli disengagement, Gaza is still considered occupied by Israel under international law.[20][21] The current blockade prevents people and goods from freely entering or leaving the territory, leading to Gaza often being called an “open-air prison”.[22][23] The UN, as well as at least 19 human-rights organizations, have urged Israel to lift the blockade.[24] Israel has justified its blockade on the strip with wanting to stop flow of arms, but Palestinians and rights groups say it amounts to collective punishment and exacerbates dire living conditions. Prior to the Israel–Hamas war, Hamas had said that it did not want a military escalation in Gaza partially to prevent exacerbating the humanitarian crisis after the 2021 conflict.[25] A tightened blockade since the start of the Israel–Hamas war has contributed to an ongoing famine.

                  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip#:~:text=The territory has been under Israeli occupation since 1967.&text=De facto administered by Hamas,IDF since 27 October 2023.

                  Having administration privileges while being blockaded is different then being an actual independant country. They couldn’t even build ports or access to most of their waters for fishing.

                  None of this is defendable. Take a hard look at the behavior you are making excuses for. Israel seriously sucks.

                  • GarlicToast@programming.dev
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                    14 hours ago

                    Israel left Gaza in 2005, and placed no blockade. Hamas to power in 2007 and broke all past agreements with Israel and started to launch rockets into Israel. This lead to the blockade.

                    The civilian population is no shield against a blockade.

                    If you started to fire your gun on my home at random hours I would have locked your door from the outside and set your home on fire with, or without, your family inside. This is common sense.

          • Jackthelad@lemmy.world
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            18 hours ago

            In a non-apartheid state, you wouldn’t have to ask and there wouldn’t be a border based on your religion. They literally control their movement between zones, and getting permits takes months. It’s text book apartheid.

            Have you ever tried living and working in another country before? Because this is literally what you have to do everywhere.

    • Grimy@lemmy.world
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      19 hours ago

      You mean the event which Israel knew about and let happen, coming from a group they actively fund which was born out of their own constant oppression?

      In any case, genocide is never a valid response. And the disproportionate amount of violence, bombing and innocent deaths speak loud as to just how rapid the dog is. Isreal also has a long history of attacking it’s neighbors in times of piece.

      Apartheid refers to the implementation and maintenance of a system of legalized racial segregation in which one racial group is deprived of political and civil rights. (From Cornell law)

      How does this not apply?

    • dontgooglefinderscult@lemmings.world
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      18 hours ago

      Remind me what the trigger was for this current conflict?

      Zionist violence in the 1880s primarily harassing Jews that lived in the regions n continuously for the last 4k years.

      To your second point, Israel is an apartheid state. There’s no way around that title.