I was a teenager during 9/11, and watching nearly every adult in my life go absolutely stark raving mad from both fear and blood lust was a real wake up call for me, I can tell you that much. If you aren’t old enough to remember it there’s nothing recent I can really compare it to. 9/11 and the Iraq War are what really got Fox News off the ground, so just imagine living in Fox News land, because it was absolutely tapping into some primal response a lot of people had.
I had more or less the same experience. “Terrorists” were the villains in spy movies and they were NEVER in the USA. I thought we were invincible? Get a little older: oh look at the social services and infrastructure that other countries have for free.
… and how the us likes to bomb the shit of said infrastructure when it makes them money somehow.
I was in my early 20s and it definitely was a moment when I realized things weren’t what they seemed. I also fell for the narrative for a bit. Then a couple years later when it was revealed that the WMDs in Iraq were made up it started to all make sense. This country operates the highest, most advanced form of propaganda and corruption. It’s how it stays in power.
I also believe this is what Israel is going through now. Leveraging primal blood lust to justify what being committed. No wonder the US is supportive.
With each passing week, there are more and more parallels to the aftermath of 9-11. Israel has now even had its own equivalent to the leaked photos of prisoners (held without trial) being degraded, tortured, and sexually assaulted at Abu Grahib.
It’s depressing watching history repeat itself within your own lifetime, even despite the far greater visibility of Israel’s war crimes thanks to the internet.
I was a sophomore in high school, from a military (though pretty progressive) family. Both my grandfathers were sailors and my father went to West Point. I was in NJROTC and had every intention of going to Annapolis. I wanted to be an astronaut, so navy pilot seemed the path, and I would be making my family proud. I happened to be the one to put up the flag at school that morning. All of this is to say that I was very proud to be an American, and was looking forward to serving my country. The terror and confusion of that day hit me as hard as anyone else, but in the following weeks I was appalled to see how my fellow countrymen reacted. The way we reacted, with fear and hatred and overwhelming violence, both within and without, fundamentally changed how I saw my nation. I eventually dropped out of ROTC and started studying history and politics. I found punk music and took theater classes. I identified as social Democrat until the BLM riots of 2020, when I was radicalized. I now consider myself an anarchist.
Perspective from a mid-twenties American. I realized it was horseshit during the 2016 Trump election.
I was turning 18 just in time to vote in this election, and it was right around then that I started forming my own ideas about politics and what political “side” I stood on. Like a majority people with a semi-functioning brain, I thought Trump was an actual joke, a meme that had no chance at actually winning, like how we were acting when Kanye ran. Unironically, I thought that having trainwrecks of a leader was something that “other countries” did, obviously America wouldn’t let someone like this win because even though we make little mistakes here and there like Iraq and slavery we’re still the good guys and we wouldn’t actually let a moron like Trump become our president.
When it became obvious that he was more than a joke and an actual serious candidate with high potential to win, I realized that the only people consistently talking about how amazing America was at everything were the people voting for him, and I started dissecting the things I’d taken for granted.
You think slavery was a “little” mistake?
As an aside, my autocorrect wanted slavery to be Disney and I was a little tempted to let it stand.
Nah I don’t think they think slavery was little. They were just being “cheeky.” You can tell because of the big jump from Iraq to slavery. If they used immigration instead of Iraq I’d have a different opinion on their intention.
It happened when I was kid growing up in another country, as a US citizen, and then coming to the US to see for myself why I had heard so much trash talk about Americans.
We are arrogant, spoiled, dumb and racist. The world expects us to be better. We are privileged like a spoiled rich brat and are waisting our fortune. We have what other countries do not and yet still ignore our own poor. We openly shit on our own minorities and immigrants that want to come here and build with us.
Even dirt poor countries have free healthcare and education. Our education system has been ignored and allowed to fall farther and farther behind the entire world.I came here in when I was in the 6th grade and immediately was shocked that kids my age could barely read. This is richest country on the entire planet, ever! Multiple choice? You mean they give you the answer and just mix it in with wrong answers!?
Our celebrated values that we put forward in our popular media (how the world learns about us by the way) do not include humility or compassion, it’s all direct or veiled celebrations of military might. Every hero is fighting. Guns guns guns, fight fight fight. Our military power allows us to do nearly whatever we want and we do.
Every disparaging comment I heard or that was aimed at me for being American I learned to be true. They are tired of our bullshit. The world doesn’t hate us, they are deeply disappointed in us. Several generations of disappointment.
Thank you for sharing this, it puts my feelings there well. I don’t hate America. I’m disappointed in it too. We used to do great things, but we’ve had generations who have squandered that, and here we are.
Yes, but I would also say that an entire generation isn’t responsible for everything. It’s usually a few very powerful people in that generation that get an the influence.
Rich people need political cover and boomers gave it to them at expense of every body else.
For me it was when I was around 8 or 9 and met someone from Kenya. They could speak perfect English, wore normal clothes, and talked about having electricity. I’d literally never been told that those things existed in Africa - every reference to that continent only talked about tribes and jungles, save for Egypt which only talked about ruins and deserts. I asked around and found that most of the rest of the world has the same stuff we have, and most countries have a functioning government. I was so confused - why were we the country of freedom when everyone else has the same thing?
At the time I just assumed that there was something I was missing, or maybe the rest of the world just caught up to our idea, but eventually I came to the conclusion that they tell us we’re the country of freedom - and keep our studies of other countries to a minimum when we’re young - so that we can internalize the rhetoric that our country is the best before we find out that most other countries about the same, and often better in certain ways.
Just think which countries make their kids pledge alliance to the flag in schools.
I realized that later, yeah. That’s not something that a kid would usually realize is bad on their own, though; if it’s something you and everyone you know has always done, most people wouldn’t think to question it.
America is #1 in production of aircraft carriers. America is #1 in the number of incarcerated citizens per capita. America is #1 in the number of adults who think angels are real. America is #1 in defense spending.
Also number one in american football
Or course they’re #1 in American football wins.
What’s remarkable is they’re #1 in World Series wins…
If you’re not good in a sport, just create your own sport, name it the same thing, and show everyone you’re best at it.
I’m going to create my own basketball and I’ll show everyone I’m #1!
“defense”
Not American, but my views of America being “the good guy” completely crumbled when I read Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent.
It made me put into perspective the amount of propaganda we’re being fed by mass media, just by reporting with carefully chosen words. It’s obviously not limited to America, because the same patterns are being used all around the world to justify imperialism, nationalism and ruthless capitalism.
It also helped me realise how fucked up some of the things my government did (and is still doing to be fair) and we just gobble it up, because it’s insanely hard to get out of the bubbles we’ve created for ourselves.thank you for the book reference, learned something new today!
It’s a tough read (as in long and highly detailed), but I feel it’s worth it to help understand how the media treats and reports information.
For anyone looking to get some of those views right away (as opposed to reading an entire book), here’s a short (<10min) video of Chomsky talking about propaganda terms in the media and what they mean.
A definite must read book. Which country do you live in?
I live in France, and roughly 90% of the media is between the hands of a dozen people at most. You can really feel the impact in the general population.
A whole dozen of people?! That’s pretty good by American and Canadian standards.
I wish your anthem still had the full lyrics.
I woke up after Powell’s speech to the UN, accusing Iraq of having WMD. He didn’t present any real evidence, but every TV show and almost every newspaper said it was an “Open and Shut” case over and over. One guy even wrote “only a fool or a Frenchman would doubt now”,
I grew up poor and black. The illusion was never there.
Surpised only two down votes.
OP prompt inherently has sub urban middle class bias… Poor or other disadvantaged people have no reason to larp that kool-aid
The fact that US doesn’t provide maternity leave to women is savage
It’s not just the prompt, it’s Lemmy as a whole.
My answer to this is so complex I’m not sure I can put it into words. Grew up at the very height of cold war US #1 propaganda in a military community. I’m a veteran. So many moments where those sentiments rang a little hollow, even if they were enticing, but I really wasn’t aware enough to put it all together at any one moment.
I’m in my 50s now, and over time enough of those myths of US exceptionalism were weakened as I learned more about US imperialism, and became more aware of how easy it is to find yourself choosing between food and medicine (or even getting neither) in the US, and could see how so much of our culture revolves around hiding our nation’s flaws from ourselves like avoiding seeing your own fat naked ass (or similar insecurity you have) in the mirror. Edit: I can’t not drop a line here about realizing that our mistreatment of African Americans didn’t end with the civil rights act. I grew up privileged and sheltered enough that I believed it had for a very long time. And our police problems are only the most high profile example of how this continues. I don’t think it’s the most pervasive nor the most systemically damaging example though.
I think we have the potential to live up to every single bit of propaganda. I think we’ve done a poor job executing on it. Individual people I meet every single day amaze me with how wonderful and generous they are. But huge groups of our people are pretty awful, and a much bigger group is still avoiding looking at their fat ass in the mirror when they come out of the shower. I’m not sure whether things will head up or down from here.
I’ll close with this, which covers most of my bases I think: https://youtu.be/OO18F4aKGzQ
Thank you for sharing. Great music video!
You got it!
When I graduated from college. I was fed the, “work hard, go to college, live well” spiel. I worked hard, I went to college, graduated with honors.
All I have to show for it is debt.
I work a job that’s… Fine, but I also cry most days because of the misery of it. I haven’t gone to a doctor in years because I can’t afford it. I can barely save (I have, like, $100 in “savings”). I will likely never be a home owner, and I will most likely have to work until I die, which breaks my spirit the more I think about it.
On less personal note, when I got to sit at the “grown up” table in regards to politics, I quickly realized that (most) people in government either don’t give a shit or actively work against the peoples interest. I hear of other countries with their free Healthcare and education, workers rights, pensions, and I weep with envy. America is like a third world country in a first world mask.
Keep your head up. I know it’s Reddit but maybe you can escape. Be one of the lucky ones.
Thank you. Saving the comment.
the healthcare shit in the US still baffles me. there’s literally no material reason for it to be that way other than disdain for people. even countries you’d consider “shitholes” have better healthcare (and things that contribute to healthcare like sick days and paid leaves) for the general population.
i always knew it was bad there but i was still baffled when i saw one video where someone breaks their leg (or something i don’t remember well) but they were begging people around them not to call an ambulance… i thought wtf why not. then i learned that not only do they charge like some fucking Uber drive but they charge insane amounts.
'richest" country in the world and in history. unbelievable.
The distain for people isn’t the reason, it’s the side effect. The goal is profit, profit above all else. The problem the US (and most everyone) has is it’s very hard to put the cat back in the bag.
After WW2 many countries were decemated and people banded together to help each other. This became the basis for social healthcare. They didn’t have huge corporate interests to fight against as so much was already dismantled.
The US however came out on top with healthy industry so there was no “start from scratch” point. Because of this any attempt at socializing healthcare comes at the cost of destroying the profits of all the companies that have been built on the back of the current system. Capitalism is built on investment and investors do NOT like losing profits. Therefore maintaining the status quo so that investments remain stable is priority #1.
The sad truth is that things have to get bad, really bad, before people consider a complete reboot. Up until recently it’s only been really bad for the poor, now the shrinking middle class is starting to feel it. Eventually it will become to much to bear, but until then there’s still more sweet profit in the next quarter.
America is like a third world country in a first world mask.
That’s exactly how I’ve considered it since like 30 years ago.
Until a few years ago, I’ve lived in Mexico for 2 decades and I’ve always felt more afraid for my safety while in the US visiting, than in Mexico, even though there we had (and still have) a drug war. There are less guns in the street there and as long as you stay out of drugs I’d claim you’re safer there than in the US.
I’ve been in many poor places in Mexico but never have I seen so much homelessness and neglect as I’ve seen in the US.
Also access to medical healthcare is better there. Almost all doctors there studied in the US, they got loads of free or cheap medications and consults. It’s always “funny” to see the same people wanting a border wall going to Mexico for cheap healthcare.
Don’t get me wrong,Mexico is far from perfect (like every country) but given the choice: Mexico or USA, I’ll choose Mexico every time.
With the rampant corruption there as well, I consider the US more a third world country than I do Mexico. Viva Mexico!
When they had us stand up in grade school and pledge allegiance to the flag. Nope, no thanks. If we’re that amazing we wouldn’t compel children to worship nationalist symbols, we’d give them reasons to be proud of their country rather than trying to compel worship.
On the other hand we’re #1 at a lot of things, like medical bankruptcies, mass shootings and incarceration per capita. So, go us and our amazing country?
Same for me, stopped doing it in high school ~2011. Felt weird and culty to me, so I sat for it. My critical examination only continued from there, and I grew up in a very conservative/nationalistic household.
So everyone should try not to worry about conservatives having all of the kids, lmao. Conservatives birth future leftists too ✌️
Its kinda hard to ignore the healthcare problem. That always stank of corruption.
Reading A People’s History of the United States put that on my radar. I hadn’t given the idea any thought until a college course assigned this book. I was educated in a standard American public school during the Reagan and Clinton eras, complete with Pledge of Allegiance. The standard schoolbooks omit a lot of atrocities and smooth over the ugly reality.
Whatever legitimate criticisms you lay on it, Zinn’s takedown opened my worldview and intensified my pre-existing anti-authoritarian streak.
9/11 happened shortly after and by then I considered Bush an illegitimate president. I watched him wage an unjustified war, and with the whole of our bloody rampage across the globe that clicked neatly into place. “America #1” is a sick joke.
Learning actual US history, for starters.
I’m not American, but I grew up there. I knew the US was a little off when I realized it was over-the-top religious which spilled over into politics. I had this idea that whatever country was the most progressive and secular would naturally gravitate towards good policies. I think my gut feeling was right. The best countries are indeed irreligious and don’t have entire communities that lose their minds over pop music that when played backward sounds like Satan speaking. That’s about when I discovered the liberal vs conservative dipole and how the Republicans try to dismantle everything good going for the country. Combo that with the low wages, the racism, the glass ceilings, over-policing, lack of public funding, lack of open public spaces*, and the injustice that I saw. I quickly realized the American dream was a mirage enjoyed by a select few and I left.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the US as my second home and wish it the best. But to call it #1 is crazy talk.
- Maybe it was the cities I was living in but I could not go out and spend $0 and sit at a plaza without being accused of loitering. I find that ridiculous for a first-world country.
whatever country was the most progressive and secular would naturally gravitate towards good policies
Sweden enters the chat
LOL the separation of NI and the rest of the the UK. Pretty accurate 😂.
Is Ireland missing from that map or am I not seeing it?
I’m not an American but seeing that bit from The Newsroom was kind of a hammer on the nail. America is not the greatest country in the world
I wanna know at what point America was the greatest country in the world when he said we use to be. Excluding one set of ppl America pretty much sucked for everyone else that lived here since its creation
One could argue America was a straight white man utopium in the 20s. After the first World War America was the saviour of the western world. The economy was booming and the capitalist society we know today felt love opportunity and wealth.
But again, this was definitely not the case for everyone.
I think ‘the greatest country’ really rather depends on the metrics by which you judge these countries. It would stand to reason that the people in the video would see America as the greatest country by metric of wealth, power and freedom (for some). Skating over gender oppression, race oppression, poverty… For some people it would be better to be in America than anywhere else in the world.
And the 20s were not the only decade this was the case. The 50s had many of the same appeal for wealthy, straight white men. And the 80s. Since then it’s been downhill.
On the other hand… I wouldn’t wanna answer the question what is the greatest country in the world right now. As a European, I like to look at Scandinavian countries as a model for a great country. But I wouldn’t really leave the Netherlands for Denmark.
It’s a pretty subjective question really. If you mean greatest country for rich white guys then the US probably qualifies as the best for a reasonable chunk of its history.
For everyone else, not so much.
