• Grayox@lemmy.ml
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    5 months ago

    I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.

    • NegativeInf@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      And I’d vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.

    • glitchdx@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.

      • Warl0k3@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        “Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one” sounds like one of those fallacies you’d learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I’ve been too scared to ask…)*

        • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China’s actions in Tiananmen Square. It’s rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.

          Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone’s idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you’re dealing with a tankie.

          • ssj2marx@lemmy.ml
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            5 months ago

            Tankies are hypocrites who didn’t understand their self-proclaimed ideologies.

            Tankies are very frequently the only people in the room who’ve done the reading. If you believe that so called “authoritarian methods” are antithetical to leftism, then I recommend you read the following pamphlet by Engels.

            • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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              5 months ago

              Tankies have read Marx and Engels, yes, but there are many other forms of leftism and even other forms of communism that aren’t ML. You are right about ML communists, in particular, but many other leftist movements are anti-authoritarian by their nature, so the point still stands.

              Also, it’s possible to do the reading and disagree with the methods of implementation. I agree with the economics and the stated goals of communism, but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.

              • ssj2marx@lemmy.ml
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                5 months ago

                but I don’t believe authoritarianism is the best way to go about it.

                Humor me for a moment, which of the following do you consider authoritarian?

                • asking your boss for better wages
                • using the power of a union to force your boss to give your coworkers better wages
                • using the power of the state to force all bosses to pay all workers better wages
                • TopRamenBinLaden@sh.itjust.works
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                  5 months ago

                  I hop off the train at the part where the top-down dictatorship comes into play. Probably a bit before the level of authoritarianism where the Joseph Stalin type starts killing people for having a dissenting opinion, and what not.

                  Using the state to enforce good wages and end the terribleness of the stock market/landlord culture does not need to involve a top down dictatorship and a lack of democracy.

                  I know about the “dictatorship of the proletariat” and all that, and in my opinion, it should involve all of the workers, not one person or a small group of people. A top down dictatorship just makes it all that easier for the party to be infiltrated and controlled by bourgeois interests. If said dictatorship is a true democracy, with each worker having an equal say, it makes it pretty hard to control the proles.

                  • ssj2marx@lemmy.ml
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                    5 months ago

                    So you wouldn’t accept any system that’s not a direct democracy? Where every single person is involved in every single vote? It’s a coherent position I suppose, but IMO totally impractical and idealistic.

                • Belastend@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  You completely disregard, that the soviet union did number 3 and crushed all unions not falling in line. Or that they ignore the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections numerous times.

                  The authoritarian way isnt being critized for coming down on Capitalists. Its critized for how it treated every deviation from the party line. And especially, how it turned into a political chess game at the top, which prioritized amassing personal power and wealth over the actual well being of the state.

                  • ssj2marx@lemmy.ml
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                    5 months ago

                    If by “not falling in line” you mean “actively sabotaging the working class for selfish reasons” then I suppose you have a point, but I would argue that in class war those organizations which do not support the working class are fair targets.

                    the will of the proletariat during the 1917 and 1918 elections

                    By the time the Bolsheviks were disregarding the results of elections, the People’s Soviets were the state power in the former Russian Empire, and they were a hundred times more democratic than the Duma ever was.

                    amassing personal power and wealth

                    I’m sorry comrade but the Soviets simply never did this. The benefits enjoyed by even top Party officials paled in comparison to the lavish lifestyles of the former Russian Empire’s aristocracy or those of the ruling class of any of their contemporary capitalist rivals - even fucking Stalin lived in a shared apartment!

                    Objectively speaking the Soviet Union was one of the most democratic and equal societies on this Earth during the time of its existence, and you can very clearly see in the data how their system equalized wealth (not “perfectly”, just “better than everyone else has ever done it”), and how the destruction of their system undid all of their progress.

            • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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              5 months ago

              There’s a difference between someone-needs-to-coordinate-and-manage-complex-undertakings “authoritarian” and line-the-dissidents-up-against-the-wall “authoritarian”. Tankies are the latter.

              • ssj2marx@lemmy.ml
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                5 months ago

                We have class war waged against us by the bourgeoisie, and thousands of people are casualties of that war every single day. Expecting to turn the tide against them without getting our hands dirty in turn is useless idealism.

                • agamemnonymous@sh.itjust.works
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                  5 months ago

                  Uh huh, and historically violent authoritarian transitional regimes are always so willing to step aside after the transition.

                • Belastend@lemmy.world
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                  5 months ago

                  Getting our hands dirty means shooting comrades who carried the revolutionary wars for being a bit yucky.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          I’m a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There’s maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it’s actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.

          If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.

          Generally, the actual term for most “tankies” would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it’s a more general, big tent label. It’s used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It’s basically like “woke” where it doesn’t actually have any real meaning.

          • Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works
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            5 months ago

            Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did… hence “Tankie”

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              5 months ago

              The idea that that’s the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.

              But regardless of the origin, it’s changed to where now it’s liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.

          • uis@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that.

            $COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.

        • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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          5 months ago

          Militant leftist, in the most basic sense.

          But anti-leftists tend to co-opt the term to replace ‘fascist’ or ‘nazi’ in their discourse.

        • awwwyissss@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          People that are happy to run people over in tanks to force their communist version of society on everyone else.

        • glitchdx@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          I am by no means an expert, but the test that was explained to me is that if you look at the famous tianamen square picture of the guy holding grocery bags facing down a line of tanks, and then proceed to side with the line of tanks, then you’re a tankie.

          When I say that I am not an expert, what I actually mean is that I’m a random idiot from the internet, so don’t take anything I say as gospel truth.

          I’ve only been on lemmy for a few months, and I’ve never heard the term tankie on any other platform. My understanding is that a tankie is a militant supporter of communism, who completely disregards (or is in support of) how every time it’s ever actually been done it turns into an authoritarian dictatorship (or something similarly unpleasant to live under).

          My own biases exposed: I am an american, and most of what I know I learned in the absolutely fucked american public education system, which says communism = evil, because of the red scare a while back.

          If you do some googling, there’s a wikipedia article on the subject. I’ve forgotten most of the content of that article shortly after I read it, I should look at it again and maybe it will stick this time.

    • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      You get it! We can’t fuck over vulnerable people. We can’t abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it – and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.

      • Diplomjodler@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        That’s such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.

        • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule…

          What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid’s Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2…

          And the average man won’t care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs… and if the trains don’t run on time, they probably have libs to blame.

      • BreadstickNinja@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can’t be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.

        • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I’m probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don’t do that to me, don’t do that to them. I’m begging you for my life.

        • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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          5 months ago

          I am trans and not voting for Biden. I refuse to sacrifice Palestinians for my own safety or the safety of my loved ones. All the stuff people say now about them being an acceptable sacrifice or there being nothing they can do about it, that’s what they’ll be saying about us tomorrow. Solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable strategy for long term survival.

          I hate being used as a rhetorical token to make people feel better about selling out another vulnerable group.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I respect this decision. But, I’m selfishly voting for Biden. Trump’s first term stressed me out.

              • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                Thoughtful, educated and informed voting decisions should be respected. Shame on this duopoly for forcing its electorate to choose between tacit support for a genocide, and outright fascism.

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                  5 months ago

                  Thank you. I have to vote according to my conscience and what I believe is right, but if someone else’s conscience tells them differently, I can make my case but ultimately it is their decision to make. So many people on here expect everyone to think and see things the exact same way as them and can’t even seem to imagine someone having different values or a different perspective, and that can be very frustrating.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              5 months ago

              If our “democracy” has decayed to the point where I’m not able to vote on whether or not we do a genocide, then it is not a democracy and I should not legitimize the sham through participation.

              There is no circumstance under which I will support genocide. If that means I die, then I will die. If any of you had a backbone you’d do the same. And if enough people drew that line, they’d have no choice but to listen to us.

                • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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                  5 months ago

                  Oh, does Biden support ranked choice voting, then?

                  He doesn’t. I’m not going to support asshole after asshole in the vain hope that maybe out of the kindness of their hearts they’ll eventually give us freedom, which directly opposes their own interests. You’re the one that needs to grow up if you believe that fairy tale.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Trans people are not a monolith. There’s other trans people in this thread begging us to vote for Biden for their safety. Your feelings about being a rhetorical token are not invalid, but recognize that other people in your vulnerable group are legitimately crying out for help.

            Either way, I’m glad I’m not one of your loved ones. Your own safety is one thing. Their safety is another.

            • OBJECTION!@lemmy.ml
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              5 months ago

              They’re entitled to their views, as I am to mine.

              I will do whatever I can to protect my loved ones and ensure they retain access to their meds. But I cannot go against the dictates of my conscience. And as I said, in the long term, solidarity between marginalized groups is the only viable path forward and I will not sacrifice that long term strategy for some fleeting, half-hearted protection. In fact I’ve already seen people applying the “lesser evil” argument to sacrificing trans rights since I posted this. Only by uniting and drawing a red line do we have a chance in the long run.

      • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Right? Imagine it’s a fucking Saw Trap, and there’s an easy way out without sacrificing anyone… and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Biden is literally arming a genocide. He was even adamant about his continued support for that. Meanwhile Dems led cities have brutally beaten up peaceful colelge protests and invited fascist MAGA mobs to attack minority students there.

        The DNC and Biden do not protect minorities. They are white supremacists with just a bit more moderation to the means they employ, but they will absolutely resort to authoritarian crackdowns if they feel the minorities to step out of line by demanding justice and rights.

    • Avid Amoeba@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      On one hand I’d like it if the Democrats put up someone more certain to beat Trump. On the other Joe has shown he supports labor and things are moving in the right direction in that regard. I’d hate it if he we get a corpo Democrat that halts this progress.

    • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      Oh my god! A tankie who’s not fucking stupid. I never thought I’d see the day.

    • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      The Prolitariat must be protected

      By consenting to corruption and a path to WWIII. That is not protecting them, in fact it is ensuring them a terrible future. If you cared about them, you would vote, volunteer, donate, and support the PSL, CPUSA, or Green party instead.

      • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Lmao the green party isn’t going to do jack shit. They’re completely unserious about politics. They aren’t even trying to build up an infrastructure in all 50 states that lets them get suffused into local and state politics. They aren’t even aiming for Congressional seats, which would be necessary for an actual Green president to get anything done.

        They’re just anti science grifters who think wifi causes cancer, entertain vaccine skepticism, and demonize nuclear energy – the latter of which could be a major asset to stopping global warming. Newer designs are even able to consume nuclear waste, meaning an anti nuclear position results in more waste than we would otherwise.

        • Queen HawlSera@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          I actually had my local Socialist Party USA chapter kick me out, ban me from their facebook, and publicly announce that I’m a rape apologist because I wouldn’t tell people to support an openly transphobic “Vaccines Cause Autism” Green Party candidate over Joe Biden.

        • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Then support the PSL. I work with the Green party to improve it, because that’s how democracy works. It’s okay you don’t understand that.

          • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            I’m afraid all of us don’t have that much free time. But hey, if you can get them to stop being anti science and actually become a serious party, I’ll consider them.

            Just don’t expect me to accept the Green Party’s many imperfections. If you don’t accept the Democrat’s imperfections, then you should perfectly understand.

            • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Send them an email and discuss your issues. They are the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change.

              Democrats don’t have imperfections, they are fundamentally flawed because they are corrupt.

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                5 months ago

                Until Stein vehemently recants her remarks about WiFi causing cancer, vaccine skepticism, and nuclear fear mongering – or the Green party completely disavows her and those remarks – it would be a total waste of time.

                It isn’t my job as an engineer to tell “the only voice in politics that supports the science of climate change” to stop endorsing completely anti science positions. Nor is it on me to try and correct a willfully anti science party. They need to show good faith, and they’ve done nothing whatsoever to suggest any of that to me.

                • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2suVx9cDKw She is the one with a medical degree, so you don’t have any authority over her opinion, sounds reasonable for her to make her stance out of concern, even if she is wrong.

                  I’m also an engineer, and that’s why I use my knowledge to try to influence the party.

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        None of those parties have a ghost of a chance of winning, and with as razor thin as the win margins were in 2016 and 2020, I’m not confident Biden will win if we don’t vote for him. I sincerely hope I do not have to explain why Trump would be worse on literally every issue (especially Gaza) than Biden is.

        • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Then do something about it instead of complain. I am, what are you doing? You vote for corruption.

          • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
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            5 months ago

            Bro’s protest voting when the Weimar American Republic has Nazis on the ballot and thinks building “grassroots support” for the twentieth year in a row justifies it when the world is about to run out of time anyways

            You want Green candidates? Tell them to run as Democrats or make a fucking militia.

            • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              Dems are actually fascists, and you are as well for not only voting for them, but gathering support for them online when you could be doing that for a decent party.

              • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
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                Yes, yes, we all know what happens when you scratch a liberal but it’s better than not having to scratch to find it. Even if all that’s holding the powers that be back is a skin-deep veneer of civility and deniability a vote to strip that veneer away makes you a fool, not a revolutionary.

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                  it’s better than not having to scratch to find it.

                  There’s no need to scratch. They openly support the genocide of children.

                  The real fool is the one that puts no effort into change.

              • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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                5 months ago

                The Democrat party is just as corrupt and bought out by corporations as the Republicans are, but at least they aren’t trying to get the country to circle the drain as quickly.

                  • AVincentInSpace@pawb.social
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                    5 months ago

                    Did they? We got back in the Paris climate accords, gay marriage got codified into an actual law, student loan forgiveness started rolling out, clamping down on junk fees and overdraft fees…

          • Nelots@lemm.ee
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            Nobody likes voting for the lesser of two evils, but we all have to if we want to stop an even further decline into hell. Our system is broken, and we don’t have any way of fixing it immediately, so we have to work with what we can. Trump as president will have immediate and direct consequences for many people, and it will be the fault of people like you that it happened. At this point, not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump. You may continue virtue signaling after we get through the crisis right in front of us.

            • goldenlocks@lemmy.world
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              5 months ago

              You’re not voting for the lesser of two evils, you are voting for corruption and evil while doing absolutely nothing about it.

              • pivot_root@lemmy.world
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                The system is set up in a way that the only viable options are between two evils, unfortunately. Under a FPTP system where the only good options are minority parties that won’t win a single seat in their districts, you’re left with the choice of voting for the lesser evil, or voting for your morals but increasing the risk of the greater evil winning.

                It’s a no-win situation.

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                  No, you can vote for whoever you want. You all on here are too lazy to gather support for another party.

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                You’re voting for no one, giving more of a chance for the greater of two evils and still doing nothing. Where your fucking guillotine?