Assuming you’re talking about violence in response to peaceful, if shitty, ideas then you’ve found the ambiguity.
Ok, yeah, this is what I wanted to get to. Otherwise we are just bouncing around vague ideas and I really didn’t see an end to it.
Shitty ideas have consequences. There are several examples in history. Notably the German Nazi party. Which resulted in a lot of violence, death, and torture of innocent people. Not to mention a war. And it all started from a fascist ideology, just words.
At what point in time would violence been justified to prevent the bad stuff from happening? Hitler was just using words after all, until he had enough power. Then, well, you know.
Or are you of the opinion that violence should never be used? Like if we saw Hitler 2 coming, we should just talk about it and not do anything violent. Even if it means the same very bad outcomes.
Most don’t. Most threats are toothless. Most angry words pass. Many people learn and grow, even from just words. Everyone is worthy of redemption. You’ve kind of chosen the worst result you can find to prove the rule, but genocides are more a result of pieces of shit getting into power more than words.
Regardless. Let’s roll with the nazi angle. Edge cases are fun.
At what point in time would violence been justified to prevent the bad stuff from happening? Hitler was just using words after all, until he had enough power. Then, well, you know.
I haven’t studied the rise of him well enough to give you a sane answer. Did he do a full Palpatine - just acted like a kind old man until he started gassing invalids? Or was it clear what his intent was? There’s obviously a line before pumping exhaust into sanitariums.
Or are you of the opinion that violence should never be used? Like if we saw Hitler 2 coming, we should just talk about it and not do anything violent. Even if it means the same very bad outcomes.
Direct threats are actionable, and there are times I’m okay violating my own rules mildly - if someone gives my niece or nephew shit for miscegenation I’ll be pretty close to violence.
I do give wide berth for expression, though. We’re also mixing something else here - the difference between individual actors you can have empathy for and a government meatgrinder.
The line for intolerance is between bad ideas and outright genocide and the line for the response is between mean words and guillotines. This is kind of my point, though, right? We need to have some function where we can define an ethical response to an unethical action.
I am kinda confused while reading your post. It sounds like we agree. I am not by nature a violent person. In fact, I would rather not punch anyone. The problem is that history shows clear a progression when it comes to fascists. Their ideas spread like a virus and people who have not been educated about it are easily convinced, even though there is a bunch of history and philosophical evidence that bad outcomes will happen. Once they gain power, that is it.
As I am talking with the OP, it seems like they think that violence is never necessary. I think this is incorrect. I think you agree with me on that point at least.
I think the punching should only happen if they have a big audience or if they are open and loud about it. Obviously try to educate them first. But at the end of the day, if they are just a normal person that doesn’t talk about their politics, and they salute a picture of Hitler before they go to bed. I am fine with that. They don’t need to be punched, they can enjoy society as long as they stay quite about it.
The problem isn’t the people, the problem is the idea. The people are fine as long as they don’t spread the idea.
I feel like intolerance is kind of a wildcard. The initial intolerance could be anything from asking an ignorant question to trying to start a genocide, and the responding intolerance is much the same.
It’s kind of like having a function that ignores the parameters and just gives a random response to intolerance. We agree because we’ve actually mapped the initial action to our reaction, so we know that with this input we get this other output.
Did I explain my objection well enough this time? I know it’s probably me not knowing how to explain it properly.
Yeah, this makes sense. Would you feel better about the this: “It’s ok to punch fascists”? Using the common definition for all these terms. I know this is slightly different from what OP was posting about.
And it all started from a fascist ideology, just words.
It started from their belief that they could suppress people just because they didn’t like them. All they had to do was declare them “intolerant” of German society, and it became morally acceptable to force them out.
That mindset can’t arise when society broadly values freedom of speech. In a society where the speech of even the worst bigots is protected, those bigots lose support every time they call for silencing their victims.
In a society where Hitler can’t even call for censoring the Jews without pissing off the entire population of Germany, he certainly can’t get support to exterminate them.
Ok, so let me get this strait. After Hitler gets his political power by creating Jews as a common enemy. By convincing most German people he will save them. But before the holocaust start happening. Your personally going to step up to Hitler and say “Hey, have you considered not using or violence? You should not use violence because it is bad”. And then Hitler will slap his forehead in disbelief that he forgot that he could just not be violent?
I am not convinced this would do anything. I think you will get disappeared, but hey, if Hitler 2 comes up, feel free to try.
After Hitler gets his political power by creating Jews as a common enemy.
How?
Remember: in this hypothetical, German society values free speech. In this society, Hitler gains no more power than David Duke. Because he staunchly opposes the freedom of Jews to speak, he opposes the ideological principles of the nation, and never gains that power in the first place.
Ohh, so we are presupposing a tolerant society? Then yeah, that would work. But to an extent that is an impossibly. Somehow the racists and fascists would have to wake up tomorrow no longer being those things and then no new person could become those things. Not sure how that would happen without violence of some kind. So you have a chicken and egg problem.
Somehow the racists and fascists would have to wake up tomorrow no longer being those things and then no new person could become those things.
Why?
Why do we need that sort of people to stop existing? Why do we need to exterminate them? Why do we need to load them up in boxcars and ship them off to death camps?
You’re not quite understanding that those racists and fascists only have those powers that society would use against them. When society decides that words alone can never justify a suspension of rights, that curtails the ability of the fascists who want that power much more than it affects anyone else.
When you demand the right to silence and suppress a fascist who offends you, you grant that same right to the fascist that you offend, and he gets to use it much more broadly than you ever would. When you defend that fascist’s right to speak, you strip him of his power to infringe on your rights, as well as the rights of everyone else.
Whoa there. It was your hypothetical of a tolerant society. I am just asking questions. Questions which you curiously didn’t answer.
Listen, I will tell you a big difference between me, racists, and fascists. I only use violence if they don’t keep their ideas to themselves. They, on the other hand, they will kill me no matter what I do. Its not the only difference, but it is important one.
I like to say I have no problem if you want to salute a picture of Hitler every night. As long as you keep your ideology to yourself.
Also, it’s not about offense, it’s about outcomes. History shows that really bad stuff (genocide) happens when fascists take power. The bad stuff is also a logical outcome of their ideology, so we will never have a good fascists government or ideology. This has been covered over and over in philosophy, it’s a very well known thing.
Finally, the tolerance and non-violence arguments you are using empowers fascists and racists, not because they believe in those things, but because it is beneficial for a society to believe those things for fascists and racists to take power. Once they have power or while they gain it, it is easy enough for them to direct hate to a target group and get rid of the idea of tolerance and non-violence.
So what I am saying here, is you are making some new friends by posting this stuff. Yay!
Listen, I will tell you a big difference between me, racists, and fascists. I only use violence if they don’t keep their ideas to themselves.
Hitler only used violence on public enemies that didn’t keep their ideas to themselves. You don’t seem to comprehend that whatever authority you grant yourself, you also give to the fascists. When you allow yourself to silence your enemies, you allow them to silence their enemies, including you.
History shows that really bad stuff (genocide) happens when fascists take power.
Which is why I am begging and pleading with you not to grant anyone that power, not even yourself. Because as soon as you claim it for yourself, you give it to them as well.
Do not wield a power you do not wielded against yourself.
Ok, yeah, this is what I wanted to get to. Otherwise we are just bouncing around vague ideas and I really didn’t see an end to it.
Shitty ideas have consequences. There are several examples in history. Notably the German Nazi party. Which resulted in a lot of violence, death, and torture of innocent people. Not to mention a war. And it all started from a fascist ideology, just words.
At what point in time would violence been justified to prevent the bad stuff from happening? Hitler was just using words after all, until he had enough power. Then, well, you know.
Or are you of the opinion that violence should never be used? Like if we saw Hitler 2 coming, we should just talk about it and not do anything violent. Even if it means the same very bad outcomes.
Most don’t. Most threats are toothless. Most angry words pass. Many people learn and grow, even from just words. Everyone is worthy of redemption. You’ve kind of chosen the worst result you can find to prove the rule, but genocides are more a result of pieces of shit getting into power more than words.
Regardless. Let’s roll with the nazi angle. Edge cases are fun.
I haven’t studied the rise of him well enough to give you a sane answer. Did he do a full Palpatine - just acted like a kind old man until he started gassing invalids? Or was it clear what his intent was? There’s obviously a line before pumping exhaust into sanitariums.
Direct threats are actionable, and there are times I’m okay violating my own rules mildly - if someone gives my niece or nephew shit for miscegenation I’ll be pretty close to violence.
I do give wide berth for expression, though. We’re also mixing something else here - the difference between individual actors you can have empathy for and a government meatgrinder.
The line for intolerance is between bad ideas and outright genocide and the line for the response is between mean words and guillotines. This is kind of my point, though, right? We need to have some function where we can define an ethical response to an unethical action.
I am kinda confused while reading your post. It sounds like we agree. I am not by nature a violent person. In fact, I would rather not punch anyone. The problem is that history shows clear a progression when it comes to fascists. Their ideas spread like a virus and people who have not been educated about it are easily convinced, even though there is a bunch of history and philosophical evidence that bad outcomes will happen. Once they gain power, that is it.
As I am talking with the OP, it seems like they think that violence is never necessary. I think this is incorrect. I think you agree with me on that point at least.
I think the punching should only happen if they have a big audience or if they are open and loud about it. Obviously try to educate them first. But at the end of the day, if they are just a normal person that doesn’t talk about their politics, and they salute a picture of Hitler before they go to bed. I am fine with that. They don’t need to be punched, they can enjoy society as long as they stay quite about it.
The problem isn’t the people, the problem is the idea. The people are fine as long as they don’t spread the idea.
I feel like intolerance is kind of a wildcard. The initial intolerance could be anything from asking an ignorant question to trying to start a genocide, and the responding intolerance is much the same.
It’s kind of like having a function that ignores the parameters and just gives a random response to intolerance. We agree because we’ve actually mapped the initial action to our reaction, so we know that with this input we get this other output.
Did I explain my objection well enough this time? I know it’s probably me not knowing how to explain it properly.
Yeah, this makes sense. Would you feel better about the this: “It’s ok to punch fascists”? Using the common definition for all these terms. I know this is slightly different from what OP was posting about.
It depends on the fascist? Common language suggests they’re, what? None of them have real political ideals.
I’m good with punching people that use slurs or rhetoric to attack others,
Fascists want power to hurt people. They think they are making the world a better place by “removing” a “bad” group of people.
When do you start punching these people? If never, they are going to kill and harm a lot of people.
So, you start punching when they get credibly threatening. We let them be fucky and loud and when it gets violent or close to, we do damage.
It started from their belief that they could suppress people just because they didn’t like them. All they had to do was declare them “intolerant” of German society, and it became morally acceptable to force them out.
That mindset can’t arise when society broadly values freedom of speech. In a society where the speech of even the worst bigots is protected, those bigots lose support every time they call for silencing their victims.
In a society where Hitler can’t even call for censoring the Jews without pissing off the entire population of Germany, he certainly can’t get support to exterminate them.
Ok, so let me get this strait. After Hitler gets his political power by creating Jews as a common enemy. By convincing most German people he will save them. But before the holocaust start happening. Your personally going to step up to Hitler and say “Hey, have you considered not using or violence? You should not use violence because it is bad”. And then Hitler will slap his forehead in disbelief that he forgot that he could just not be violent?
I am not convinced this would do anything. I think you will get disappeared, but hey, if Hitler 2 comes up, feel free to try.
How?
Remember: in this hypothetical, German society values free speech. In this society, Hitler gains no more power than David Duke. Because he staunchly opposes the freedom of Jews to speak, he opposes the ideological principles of the nation, and never gains that power in the first place.
Ohh, so we are presupposing a tolerant society? Then yeah, that would work. But to an extent that is an impossibly. Somehow the racists and fascists would have to wake up tomorrow no longer being those things and then no new person could become those things. Not sure how that would happen without violence of some kind. So you have a chicken and egg problem.
Why?
Why do we need that sort of people to stop existing? Why do we need to exterminate them? Why do we need to load them up in boxcars and ship them off to death camps?
You’re not quite understanding that those racists and fascists only have those powers that society would use against them. When society decides that words alone can never justify a suspension of rights, that curtails the ability of the fascists who want that power much more than it affects anyone else.
When you demand the right to silence and suppress a fascist who offends you, you grant that same right to the fascist that you offend, and he gets to use it much more broadly than you ever would. When you defend that fascist’s right to speak, you strip him of his power to infringe on your rights, as well as the rights of everyone else.
Whoa there. It was your hypothetical of a tolerant society. I am just asking questions. Questions which you curiously didn’t answer.
Listen, I will tell you a big difference between me, racists, and fascists. I only use violence if they don’t keep their ideas to themselves. They, on the other hand, they will kill me no matter what I do. Its not the only difference, but it is important one.
I like to say I have no problem if you want to salute a picture of Hitler every night. As long as you keep your ideology to yourself.
Also, it’s not about offense, it’s about outcomes. History shows that really bad stuff (genocide) happens when fascists take power. The bad stuff is also a logical outcome of their ideology, so we will never have a good fascists government or ideology. This has been covered over and over in philosophy, it’s a very well known thing.
Finally, the tolerance and non-violence arguments you are using empowers fascists and racists, not because they believe in those things, but because it is beneficial for a society to believe those things for fascists and racists to take power. Once they have power or while they gain it, it is easy enough for them to direct hate to a target group and get rid of the idea of tolerance and non-violence.
So what I am saying here, is you are making some new friends by posting this stuff. Yay!
Hitler only used violence on public enemies that didn’t keep their ideas to themselves. You don’t seem to comprehend that whatever authority you grant yourself, you also give to the fascists. When you allow yourself to silence your enemies, you allow them to silence their enemies, including you.
Which is why I am begging and pleading with you not to grant anyone that power, not even yourself. Because as soon as you claim it for yourself, you give it to them as well.
Do not wield a power you do not wielded against yourself.
Hey, I will stop being violent when there is no need to.
Speaking of which, did you want to answer my question about your hypothetical?
What would a tolerant non-violent society do with a bunch of fascists attempting to gain power to do violent activity?
If you have non-violent solution to this, I would happily change my stance.