I forgot to mention, this problem is solved. It mysteriously fixed itself. After unplugging a connector and reconnecting it, the sensor started working again.

The metadata in the headers can be avoided using Memoryhole and similar protocols which embed the headers inside the encrypted payload. The problem is again barrier to entry. Low-tech users generally can’t even handle app installs on desktops.

When you say “worry”, that’s not the right word for it. My boycott against Google is not fear-driven. I will not feed Google anything it can profit from as an ethical stance. Even if an expert linux tor user were on Google, I’m not sure we could exchange email in a way that ensures Google gets no profitable data. If we use PGP coupled with Memoryhole to strip out the headers, I’m not sure Google would accept a msg with a missing or bogus From: header. But if so, Google still possibly learns the user’s timezone. Though that may be useless if Google learns nothing else about that user. But we’re talking obscure corner cases at this point. Such an expert user would have no Google dependency anyway.

MS/google-dependent friends are generally extremely low-tech. They don’t know the difference between Firefox and the Internet. They don’t know the difference between Wi-Fi and Internet. Linux – what’s linux? They would say. At best, they just think of it as a mysterious nerd tool to be avoided. So what can I do wholly on my end to reach them via gmail without Google getting a shred of profitable data? Nothing really. So I just don’t connect directly with a large segment of friends and family. Some of them are probably no longer reachable. Some are in touch with people who connect to me via XMPP, so sometimes info/msgs get proxied through the few XMPP users. It’s still a shitshow because Google still gets fed through that proxied inner circle of friends and family. In the past when someone needed to reach me directly, they would create a Hushmail or Protonmail mail account for that temporary purpose (like coordinating a trip somewhere). But that option is mostly dead.

I just had to reach out to plumbers for quotes. All of them are gmail-served. All I could do is refuse to share my email address and push them to use analog mechanisms. They are not hungry enough for business to alter their online workflow or create protonmail accounts.

That’s exactly what I did with hushmail. I would tell low-tech folks to get a hushmail account then I would use hushtools.com to do all the key management, putting my key on the keyring and grabbing their key. So the other person did not need to know anything or take any special steps. That was best option of my time. But last time I checked hushmail was still entirely non-gratis.

Protonmail emerged when HM became non-gratis and messed with hushtools. But PM requires every one of their own users to do key management which creates a barrier to entry. I would have to walk a PM user through adding my key to my record in their address book and walk them through sending me their key. That effort is a show stopper for many. I might as well walk them through setting up a PGP-capable MUA. But then if they keep their gmail or MS acct the metadata still feeds those corps.

This simple answer is no doubt the most overlooked; probably as a consequence of the tyranny of convenience… people too lazy to go to the library.

I give out my XMPP address and offer Snikket accounts. Some go along with it and some do not. I lost touch with some friends. Some people are in contact via phone but that’s not ideal some connections are lost as phone numbers change.

I used to push some people toward Hushmail until they dropped the gratis plans. Then for a while I pressured people onto Protonmail but then distanced myself from PM when the brought in Google reCAPTCHAs and killed off Hydroxide. Tuta is a non-starter because Tuta’s variety of e2ee is incompatible with open standards, thus forcing me to periodically login to a web UI (also due to them sabotaging their Android app by way of forced obsolescence pushed in the most incompetent way).

So it’s a shitty state of affairs. 2024 and simply sending a msg to someone has become a total shitshow.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t mean take the sensor out of the wall, but just electrically unplug it from the controller to see what it does on its own when you turn on the water.

Yeah I figured that but the terminals on the sensor are hard to reach so I was figuring I would need to remove it. But then it occurred to me that I could leave the thing in place and do the isolated test by unplugging the X2 connector from the motherboard and easily access the pins through that connector. So that’s what I did. Results:

• at rest, the signal wire is 4.75 V
• water running, the signal wire is 2.3 V

So in isolation the sensor worked correctly. Then I plugged it back into the motherboard and retested to confirm again the bad voltages. But in fact the readings were correct. It’s unclear why it works now. I wonder if the unplugging and replugging of the x2 connector improved a connection that deteriorated somehow.

Thanks for saving me €36! However incidental. If I had not done the test in isolation, I probably would not have messed with the X2 connector. I would have normally just replaced the sensor as an experiment.

(edit) I can hear a ticking sound coming from the motherboard. I’m not sure how long it’s been doing that. It’s quite faint unless I put my ear close to the board. Maybe it’s normal.

It shows 5V on the diagram but I don’t think that’s precise. I measured the red wire at 4.68v which is around what the guy in the video got in his test. Since the board is part of the circuit I suppose I cannot rule out the board as a problem. Testing the sensor in isolation will be rough going because it’s a proprietary joint. So I would have to get a tight rubber hose and fit that onto a garden hose. For powering it I have a switchable ac adapter with a 4.5 V setting. Or I can maybe get 5V off a USB charger or ATX PSU from a PC. My multimeter does not have a frequency function but I can see from the video that it would be useful for this so I might look for 2nd hand multimeter at the next street market, though that will set me back a week (OTOH might be worth it if it helps diagnose this in a way that helps avoid buying the wrong part).

Whatever is broken here, it was something that gradually failed. For several months it was a gamble when turning on the hot tap whether the boiler would detect it and give hot water. It was like a 50/50 game of chance for a while then getting hot water became progressively less likely until it flatlined.

It shows 5V on the diagram but I don’t think that’s precise. I measured the red wire at 4.68v which is around what the guy in the video got in his test. Since the board is part of the circuit I suppose I cannot rule out the board as a problem. Testing the sensor in isolation will be rough going because it’s a proprietary joint. So I would have to get a tight rubber hose and fit that onto a garden hose. For powering it I have a switchable ac adapter with a 4.5 V setting. Or I can maybe get 5V off a USB charger or ATX PSU from a PC. My multimeter does not have a frequency function but I can see from the video that it would be useful for this so I might look for 2nd hand multimeter at the next street market, though that will set me back a week (OTOH might be worth it if it helps diagnose this in a way that helps avoid buying the wrong part).

Yeah, if by /in system/ you mean connected to the board. I didn’t mess with anything other than to stick my probes onto the wires. The boiler is not switching on to heat water and it acts just as if it is not detecting that water is running. So a broken flow sensor was one of the theories. And since the readings seem quite off from what’s expected I guess buying a new sensor is the right move.

Once I get it removed I’ll see if it looks like I can rebuild it but I don’t expect that to go well. I may not have to waste it though. Considering the at rest voltage is double the running water voltage, it’s still detecting water running. It’s just not giving the voltage the board expects. So one idea is maybe I can repurpose this to turn on a shower light when the shower water is running.

If I had an electronics background I would probably try to do a makeshift gadget that converts 0.66 V to 2V and 1.33 V to 0 V. Then I wouldn’t need a new sensor (which could cost €100… i’ve not checked locally yet but online prices are looking terrible).

Thanks for the feedback. I see that that’s indeed the case.

I refuse to fund my oppressors

Bingo. I live by this philosophy.

Although more precisely: I refuse to fund feed my oppressors. The reason for s/fund/feed/ swap is that our oppressors profit from our data too. So e.g. I won’t even email a gmail user because my data would then feed Google (an oppressor because of how they dictate e-mail terms among other oppressions).

Are you certain you were looking at information for your specific unit

No, I don’t have the tech details for my specific model. Both videos cover different models of the same brand. The first video (d8ucufoyUlQ) model in the video looks newer judging from the control panel but interior looks the same. The 2nd video (G4bO8MYqQKk) has a different looking interior with a black label on the pump, so I think that’s an older one. I was figuring if a newer and older model both have the same voltage specs then mine is probably the same.

The voltmeter was set to DC voltage, 20 V (which should measure up to 20 V). My meter does not have a frequency function (Hz), so I don’t have the benefit of checking to see what flow rate is measured.

I should also mention that my cold water flows at ~1 liter/5 seconds and the hot water circuit flows at ~1 liter/7 seconds.

(update)
I found the service manual… did not realise I had one. But it’s not too useful. It does not clearly describe the relationship between voltage and state. There seems to only be a diagram which I posted here:

https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/26703241

Thanks for the feedback. Indeed that seemed to be the best theory. So I found these quite useful videos:

• https://iv.ggtyler.dev/watch?v=d8ucufoyUlQ
• https://iv.ggtyler.dev/watch?v=G4bO8MYqQKk

My voltmeter detected 4.68 V on the red input wire showing that the sensor is well fed. The green “signal” wire is supposed to be 0 V at rest and 2 V with water running. In my case the green wire is ~1.33 V at rest and ~0.66 V when water is running. That’s bizarre, no? As I understand it, a magnetic fan spins when water is in motion which generates a current in magnets around the fan each time the fan blade (impeller) passes a magnet. I can imagine that a faulty impeller or sensor would reduce the voltage when it spins, but bizarre that the voltage would be 1.33 V when the water is still.

I suppose either way the sensor and impeller will need to be removed together since they are part of the same fitting. From there I’m not sure which one to replace. Hopefully it’ll be visible.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!

You want to open the hot valve 100% until the hot water comes because it conserves water. You want to clear out the hot water line as fast as possible. Turning it to 70% just takes longer to heat up and you’re just dumping cold water out for no reason.

This is precisely what a thermostatic valve gives you. I don’t think you know how a thermostatic valve works. If the thermostat on the mixer bar is set at 38°C and you turn on the pressure control when the water in the hot line is cold, a thermostatic valve opens the hot 100% immediately and when the hot water arrives at the fixture it automatically adjusts. What you say about starting 70% open is exactly the problem you have when /not/ using a thermostatic valve, like the pressure balance valves that are common in the US.

(edit) also consider how tankless heaters have a minimum threshold for turning on. If you open the hot valve just a little, the heater will not be triggered. It must be open enough to trip the flow switch. It can be tricky to open the valve just enough to trigger the heat. A thermostatic mixer valve solves that.

Even a couple of dollars more for a contractor is a lot when a thermostatic valve doesn’t add any value.

I don’t think you saw the pic I posted of the cheap thermostatic mixer bar. Those can be installed by anyone because they are external. You just turn two union nuts until hand-tight then give ¾ turn extra with a wrench.

The bolts use a plastic washer and plastic nuts that slide into plastic rails of the plastic cistern. It’s really flimsy. As I tighten the nuts, I can hear the cracking sound of the plastic washers cracking internally. I’ve reinforced them with a bit of thin sheet metal but whatever I do cannot rely on bolts to add much pressure. This is also why I kind of doubt a rubber flanged gasket working even if I could track one down.

But indeed using all gummy stuff would likely work (but messy!). I’ll try it if my next plan fails.

In US the most common type of seal is a wax ring.

I’ve seen those used between the toilet and the floor on US toilets. I didn’t know they also used them between the cistern and bowl. That might work here but finding one locally seems unlikely but I’ll have to look anyway.

But everything needs to be extremely rigid, any movement later will break the seal.

Well, cistern is plastic and flimsy so maybe it wouldn’t work. I’m also thinking the hard rubber gaskets might only work well for a heavy ceramic cistern.

I appreciate all the recycling tips. People around here just use them to decorate street corners without cleaning them up first. I never see them getting dumped, so I guess the city porcelain beautification project must be happening late at night.

One practical use I might consider is for the parking competition. Sometimes people try to reserve street parking by putting junk on the street in front of their house until they need to park. A heavy old ceramic toilet might work well for that as probably no one else would want to touch it to take a parking spot.

I just removed the cistern for like the 6th or so time to inspect. The gummy stuff appears to adhere very well to both the ceramic and the foam. I would be quite surprised if the water were getting between them. I suspect the most likely theory now is water goes between the foam and the cistern and over top the foam. To test this, I guess I will cut out a paper ring and place that on top of the foam and see if part of the paper gets wet. If the paper gets wet, then I’m thinking I will wrap electrical tape around the cistern down spout to widen it a bit, to get a tighter fit in the foam ring, and maybe put 1 strand of jute (rope) under the electrical tape near the top. And if that fails I guess i will put some of the gummy stuff on the top of the foam, though that will make for a mess everytime the cistern needs to be removed.

It’s bizarre that thermostatic mixers are costly in the US. I can get a new one as cheap as €25 if I shop out the sales, or probably €10 2nd hand.

Tankless water heaters are really lagging as well in the US, and absurdly costly. I’m sure that will get corrected eventually. But in Europe tankless boilers are the norm and used in combination with thermostatic mixers. The lack of tank causes a delay in hot water because it’s less instant than a pre-heated tank. The heating element takes time to fire and reach a high temp. So you are even more tempted to open the hot valve 100% until the hot water comes, which means you have to diligently readjust the valve to avoid scalding.

The luxury fix to that delay is to have a 3rd pipe that cycles the (cold) hot water line to keep it hot in the pipes. This seems quite wasteful and complex so I wouldn’t want to install that.

The thermostatic mixers can get as cheap as €25. Though I think the cheap ones have a degree of slippage, whereby mid-shower I have to increase temp. I don’t know if that’s because it lost track of my setting, or if I adjusted to the temp physiologically and need hotter water to psychologically feel the same level of heat.

What kind of bothers me about the pressure balance design is you cannot tell from the pics if it’s really pressure balanced. I think the one handle style goes back decades, and originally did not maintain a balance. You have a joystick of sorts but if the pressure on one pipe changes you don’t know if it internally balances to maintain the ratio. So you have to read the product description and trust it.

Yeah, kind of. I’m glad to hear they have that capability. But note that there are some non-thermostatic designs that come close to achieving the same effect. Those have a memory of sorts, where they know you want X volume of hot water and Y volume of cold water. Then if the pressure in one drops or increases, the valve will adjust the other line ensure the hot and cold have the same ratio regardless.

That’s pretty good. But it assumes the hot water and cold water are each at constant temps. So imagine if you get to near the end of a hot water tank supply, the hot water will gradually become colder. In that case, a thermostatic valve will open the hot even more to chase the temp you want. Whereas the pressure balance style will not. Perhaps more importantly, the pressure balance style does not counter the fact that the hot line will be initially cold since the hot water cooled down while sitting in the pipe. So you have to fiddle with readjustments until the hot pipe is maxed out.