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cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/2916897
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The original was posted on /r/science by /u/mvea on 2024-05-15 10:17:06+00:00.
So, if I tell you “I’ll give you $10,000 for you to spend in 24 hours. Spend 20 seconds to think about it,” what goes through your head? Don’t you hear anything like “shit, that’s a lot of money?! Where to start, where to start…”?
Don’t you “have words” in your head to form thoughts?
No words here at all. I generally don’t use words for thinking unless I’m trying to think of a sentence or something like that.
I wish we could swap brains for five minutes. But what is “thinking” for you? Can you picture things in your mind? Moving objects? Suppose that you’re looking for a spoon and open your silverware drawer, and it’s unexpectedly filled with cotton candy. And you live alone! What goes through your head?! Because the first thing that goes through my head is surprise, followed by the phrase “what the fuck?!?!?!?!”
I also can’t picture anything in my mind either. It’s like a different language that is based on feelings instead of words. You know when you move next to a fire and you feel hot? You don’t need any words to feel hot, right? It’s kinda like that. I would open the drawer and feel a “this isn’t right” feeling.
Wild. Thanks! The feeling hot analogy is glorious.
Babies can think before they can talk 🤷♂️
But they can understand you before they can talk too.
We don’t disagree with this one, but I don’t see how this is relevant. I wish I could ask a baby this question, but they can’t answer, can they? So I’m asking OP instead.
Ah sorry, I think I misread your previous comment as if you were saying you had to have words to think, maybe implying other people were not correct when they said they didn’t have words? And I was trying to say it was possible, but I see you weren’t actually trying to argue that now, so nvm!
I also don’t think I’m a words person. Sometimes I’ll talk out loud to myself while I’m doing something, and I definitely CAN think my thoughts as words in my head, but yeah usually I just do stuff without it. I mean to some degree everyone does things without brain words, right? If you’re getting ready for bed, so you think “now I need to stand up, now I move my left foot, now my right, now I move my right arm to pick up the toothbrush”. Like, you have to take some actions without narrating them, right? We’re just like that, but more so 😄
Yup, I wasn’t trying to argue. Don’t worry, friend - all good :)
Ok, in that case you’re like me, then. It’s not like I’m constantly chatting in my head. That sounds exhausting, actually. But my “word thoughts” closely resemble the words I’d say if someone told me “think aloud while you’re doing things - you don’t need to be as detailed.” In your example, if I’m getting ready to bed, I wouldn’t describe in my mind everything that I need to do. It would be more like “a’aight, time for bed” (do stuff, do more stuff), “where’s my phone charger? ah! here.” (do more stuff, then some more stuff) “…aaaaand done! Ooh, very nice!”
It’s like I “know” all the options (pros and cons and obstacles and things to think about) all at once, any time I have is then spent on the emotional consequences of them. But more time doesn’t usually mean discovering more options.
So like… how do you think through ideas? Philosophize? You don’t bounce ideas around in your head and deeply weigh multiple options? It’s just… empty?
Just chunks of thoughts not in words or pictures.
Personally, when I’m working through a problem, I’ll usually force it into words (either out loud or to myself), but that’s a conscious action rather than a subconscious response. I choose to speak those things, and it’s me (not an amorphous voice) who speaks them.
But often after forcing the thoughts into words I’ll hit upon an interesting thread, and my mind will leap ahead faster than spoken language can catch up. It’s only when I hit a roadblock that I slow things down into language-speed.
I mean that’s the same as anyone. When people talk about their inner voice, the voice is still them. They’re in control of what it says. It can get a little out of hand sometimes (like getting a song stuck in your head) but ultimately it’s you doing it.
Same with being able to “leap ahead” faster than the spoken word. Like, if someone gets a knife pulled on them they don’t have to think “I will run now”, they simply run. The internal monologue is an addition, not a replacement, if that makes sense.
From how people are describing it, it’s a necessary addition rather than an optional one
Like I pointed out in the mugging example, it’s entirely optional. It can just get out of hand sometimes lol.
I say that as someone with an extremely active internal monologue.
Sounds like others’ are more active than yours. People in this thread talk as if theirs never stops.
Mine never does unless I actively focus on it, like through meditation. But it’s still me lol, the alternative is what’s called schizophrenia.
I can’t speak for everyone, but in my case, yes, I can control the voice just like I can control my physical voice. Sometimes they’ll be automatic, yes, but that’s no different from your way of thinking while doing some chore, like washing dishes.
@laughterlaughter
No and it’s amazing to me that you’d even be able to think of it in 20 seconds with all that chatter in your brain.
As I was reading your comment I could sort of hear parts of that, because it’s you “speaking” to me, but as soon as I saw it the $10,000 imediately became a sort of conceptual bundle located in front of me, the 24h was like a moving spatial cycle thing and my brain was plotting possibilities based on how far I would have to travel (the ones falling inside the cycle are the do-able ones) and locating a whole lot of stuff branching out from my computer with short action times.
Also my brain had immediately reached to the right hand middle distance which is where it “keeps” investment advice. It had a quick dart to the far away centre-left and I had a flash/photorealistic image of home furnishings out there but rejected instantly as the tangled sense of moving parts between me and it meant the process toward them is complex and would take up too much of the 20 second processing time to even see if they would fit in the 24h cycle.
@southsamurai did the above comment make sense?
It’s hard because we have to translate it to get it across -for me it feels a bit like being asked how do you know where your arms are relative to your body.
about the arms. spacial awareness… and a surprising number of ppl don’t have that
I didn’t express it very well - I meant basic proprioception, which most people have. We need it for things like walking or lifting a cup to our mouths.
Fantastic! Thank you for answering, and I have a similar process going on in my brain as well - but it’s combined with “me talking” as well. For example, if I become aware of that “right hand side” investment section you described, I’d probably say’ “ooh investing, maybe?”
Thanks, that makes sense! But I don’t understand how that could fit in temporally? Like, wouldn’t you have already got halfway through the possible investment overview while you were still talking? Or is it more that you’re doing both at once?
Correct, at once. Like a teacher who is writing on something on the whiteboard while speaking.
Or that scene in Minority Report in which Tom Cruise is going through videos/scenes/etc with his hands while saying things loud to himself.
Not op, but I’m curious if anyone will help me understand my own reality. I immediately close my eyes to make the experience authentic.
“I have to spend 10 grand in 24 hours” as a imaginary verbal statement. (internal monologue?). Then I “lookup” spending money memories and create an object in my head without any attributes. I can tell it has emotional attachment from the memories, best described as a label. (I determine to go online shopping without much thought).
“most likely buy raw materials like gold”. [Pause]. But what’s unique about this situation that I can take advantage of? 24 hours [trail off]. Bonds would be easy and just postpone payment. Is laundering an option? Why is this person giving away 10k? What damage can it do?"
As the passenger, it feels like large derivitive stuff is silent. The inner dialogue is mostly probing. But here is a significant amount of silence betweens questions. I don’t have a visual canvas.
Are others answering these questions? Frequently, I have a silent mind but pondering takes probing.
It sort of sounds like yoi do it as a way of externalizing the questions, like it’s a different part of your brain or your brain wants to make it clear to you that the question process is different from the answer process.
To me a question feels like knowing there’s something behind my occipital bone and sensing it moving forward towards my eyes. So it’s not verbalised but it’s definitely a separate feeling.
Interesting! In my case, if I remember all of a sudden that I have to do laundry tomorrow, but there’s a conflict, then I’ll “speak” in my mind, with my own voice, saying “oh shit, tomorrow I have Bob’s party and I haven’t done laundry yet - all my clothes are dirty!!” Well, maybe with not that many words. Maybe more like “Oh shit, I forgot! How do I solve this…?”